I'm getting frustrated with the lack of response

[Catia]

Just want to note-one of the *BIGGEST MOST IMPORTANT* things I have to consider, is whether or not Tessa is TM.
I'm going for the DNA test, I need to know.

I have to be honest-I WANT so much to keep her-but I may not be able to handle her when she is older-meaning when she goes through the change & becomes more guardy.

With the independents having the crappy recall -even with a TON of work--Coupled with my health condition, I do need a pooch I can trust to respond to me, on command, *WITHOUT QUESTIONING*.

If I cannot get up, or if I need assistance, I need to know my pooch isn't going to interfere & attack or block EMS workers trying to save my own life. This is a HUGE issue.
My pooch *WILL* be in situations such as this, it is just a fact.

I love the idea of some of the things Tessa may be capable of, but in the reality of my own world, it might not be doable in my own personal health circumstances. I can deal with crappy recall & independent thought-but I do not think it is SAFE for me or those around me if I have BOTH independent though & the guardian aspect coupled in the same pooch.

To be completely honest, I'm hoping she turns out to be something other than TM, maybe she's got some type of stubborn hound that gives her that profile-their recall is crap too & they are lazy, from what I've read, but not aggressive or guardy.

 

[ruthcatrin]

If you have to give her up do you have to give her back to the rescue?

 

[Catia]

Ruth, not as far as I understand it, legally I have full ownership.

I hate to even think about this aspect of it, this is making me sick to my stomach. Right now i'm installing a/c in her room.
If she is TM, if it came to me needing to rehome her, it would *only* be to someone with TM or similar-like GP experience.

Let's hope she's newf or hound. It's the guardy thing I'm concerned about. I have to be realistic of the situations she will be in due to my health issues.

I have such a hard time fathoming her ever being guardy in her floppy loving state, but I'm not so dumb as to think I can train out a natural instinct. This whole situation is just too much.

 

[ruthcatrin]

There HAVE been instances of TMs allowing, and even protecting, EMTs who're assisting their owner, but unfortunetly there are as many, if not more, where the TM didn't. if you'd like I can put you in contact with Apollo's sister,s owner, she has TMs as her service dogs, and you could discuss with her how she handles that portion of their training? She's certinally not a hard tempered pup, but it can be hard to predict what will happen as she matures.

 

[Catia]

Ruth, Thanks you, I will keep it in mind, but aside from just posting here, I'm not ready to speak to anybody about this in person or on the phone, i'm too torn up & conflicted, so the posting is real enough for me for right now.

I ordered the Wisdom 2.0 panel.

I feel like my world is crashing, I wanted a normal life & a pooch to do things with, & I prepared & thought this through.
I purposely adopted from rescue, looking for a mix, I actually said I wanted a rottie mix because it's rottie with a softer side.
That what I always had & was used to, aside from danes.
Actually she was listed as 'retriever mix' initially, then it was changed to rottie mix, the 1st shelter wrote possible shepherd, & also I was told the 'accidental breeding' story.

Now I've got this sweet innocent pooch who's not asked for this, mixed up in the balance, because of my limitations.
I don't think I've got what it takes to train a TM, before I got sick, yes, but I was youger too.
I am afraid of the guardian risk factor later down the road. I have no experience with that at all. I can handle regular training, but nothing intensive.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Thats fine, if or when let me know.

 

[Catia]

I had to look up "LGD", not familiar with all of the acronyms. I don't know anything about those types of pooches.

I'm trying to HARD understand the whole 'independent thought' concept.
This is the one aspect I have a hard time wrappring my head around,

Please excuse my ignornace on the subject. I'm trying hard to work this all out.

I'm city bred, & just don't have experience with these types, but I read up what I can when I do not understand something.

So TM is similar to LGD? Or at least somewhat in independent thought & temperament is what I gathered from the post by mccarerel- Is this correct?

I happened upon some info online that helped me understand why the independent thought with guardian instinct was preferred by some people, in specific situations.
A man (farmer) was specifically asking the difference between having a rottie & a gr. pyr. for his flock guardians. He was needing to add a few more dogs due to age of his current pack.
He had several gr pyr as working dogs & 1 rottie mix which was more his pet & was considering adding more rotties, pure bred, because he liked the more soft temperament & trainability of the rotties over the gr pyr, but in the end realized that the gr pyr was a better suited guardian because gr pyr didn't need trained or instructed to do their job to guard flock, & would take immediate action, while the rottie would seek him out for direction before reacting, & by then it could be too late for his flocks.

Of couse this was a country setting, & these are farmers with land & livestock to protect.

When being a city dweller, & not working a pooch of this type of temperament, meaning just having for pet & companionship-what are some of the pros/cons?

I live in the inner-city, dense population, neighborhood on the rough side.
I have small stockade fenced rear yard (abt 25'x32' with 6ft fence) but easy access to city parks & trails, just outside my door. I just use the yard for crappy weather days, or lazy days where I just play fetch for exercise instead of walks. This has always worked perfect for me in the past with every pooch I've had.

To be more specific, I live in a 1st floor apt of a duplex (I own it).
I have movement in/out of people I do not know, at various hours, since I have a tenant on the 2nd fl.
I was considering fencing the entire property next year, making it 1 yard, so Tessa had access to front & back, but if she is a guardian breed & independent thinker, well, with a tenant & strangers, obviously that wouldn't be a good idea.

Also, I work full time.
I have a service come in for a mid-day play session or walk, the company is bonded/insured, the owner is a certified trainer.
Presently, my regular guy is an 'apprentice' trainer who comes daily for Tessa & she just loves him.
BUT--there are days where it cannot be guaranteed who is going to come, just that someone will be here.
Instead of a walk, I have my regular guy play fetch in the yard & give her some pets & attention, feeling nervous about him walking her since he is less experienced(my issue not his-I needed to feel comfortable 1st).
Owner prefers to walk her, & I'm fine with that.
So far, it's just been the owner or my regular guy.

*Already I can tell the difference by Tessa's behavior when I get home if it's not been my regular guy.*
The difference is night & day-It's so profound that the 1st time a switch occurred, I thought no one showed up at all.
He informed me my regular was off for a few days & it was him instead.

Tessa was different when I got home, she seemed a little 'hyper' (meaning hyper for Tessa), she did a LOT of jumping up on me when I got home & was more pushy with the cats, & it seemed the rest of my day & evening was nothing but redirecting her. Once my regular came back-Tessa was back to her normal self that day.

So if Tessa is TM, I'm worried about what will happen future-wise with her guardian aspect because someone different may need to come in on short notice. I already see a profound difference in her behavior when there is a change, so obviously she is very sensitive to change even if not TM. She regresses. I'm not sure why, but she just does.
Are there ways to work with or around this? Suggestions?

 

[broccolini]

If she is anything like a TM when she's older, she probably won't let an unknown dog walker in the house. It's not unusual for these dogs to not allow anyone in your house when you aren't home. This includes people she's known since she was a pup. So, even though she's allowing the 'regular' person in the house now, that's no guarantee she'll continue to do so once she comes into her adult temperament.

TMs are not a true LGD. At least, I don't consider them to be. They are more interested in protecting you, not so much in protecting your stuff. So, yes, they are similar in that they are meant to work with little to no direction from their human. Sometimes they'll decide something needs their attention. You may not agree. For the most part, they aren't that interested in what you think and it will be hard to get them to ignore whatever they are focused on.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I'm sorry! I tend to forget to explain abreviations! LGD or LGB refers to Livestock Guardian Dogs/Breeds, the one people are most familer with are Great Pyrs. TMs generally get classified as LGDs, though they're more used as property guardians these days rather than livestock guardians. LGDs include Great Pyrs, Marrema (which look alot like Pyrs), Kuvasz, COs (like Brad's Luytiy), and with several other breeds. They will indeed determine threat on their own and manage the tthreat on their own, with no training or oyher human intervention.

Inner city isn't the most ideal setting for these dogs, but with the right individual temperment and the right setting it can be managed. And yes, she will be very sensitive to change.

I take it, as it stands now, that your tenents don't have access to your fenced area? Or at least not immediate access? If you keep her I'd recommend keeping it that way instead of letting her have the whole yard, as she may guard it from new tenants or their guests.

She will likely alert to strangers always. She will likely learn at accept your tenents once they've been there a bit, but it'll take time.

 

[ruthcatrin]

For the dog walker, I know Mooshi,s mummy uses one, but yes, its possible that as she matures Tessa would not tolerate a stranger as her dog walker.

 

[Catia]

Correct-tenants have no free access to my rear yard.

Tessa LOVES my tenant, & I will tell you why-
Tenant left an old pair of shoes in my yard.
Tessa isn't a huge fan of toys, but these damn shoes are one of Tessa's favorite things, so I let her have them.
It's a joy to see something she likes to play with. She also has a plastic water pitcher that excites her...

She doesn't interact with my tenant a lot, maybe once per week-just in passing-and I gotta tell you
--it's *ALL ABOUT THE FEET* LOL
She gets all excited & goes straight for her toes-especially funny if she's wearing flip-flops.
Tenant could care less about Tessa, aside from "cute puppy", but Tessa greets her like an old dear friend-completely different from her regular greeting with people she knows & likes!

I'm suprised at Tessa's reaction to a different person walking her, she is truly a sensitive girl & has such an element of mystery.
If something is different, her behavior shows it, & it does not shake off quickly, seems to take the entire rest of the day & a night of sleep it off.

FYI, this past few days, I only walked Tessa once. I wanted to see where her energy level would go while I had the time to experiment.
I also was a bit pre-occupied with installing Tessa's a/c & doing some electrical work around the house, so aside from some short fetch sessions when she seemed to need them, & 1 walk last night, she wasn't the center of my attention.
Of course her energy is a little bit more, but something else is different-

Tessa has started approaching me a LOT & seeking interaction & play, & also affection.
To my suprise, she is downright cuddly-though damn is she clumsy in the bed, she doesn't get I'm under the blanket.
Usually if she gets in bed, she lays towards the bottom, & gets down after a few min to put her belly on the cool floor.
She slept right up against me, full body(once I moved her off of me lol).
She did get down a couple of times because she was hot, then climbed right back in on her own.

So I get she may've felt a little ignored-& that made her seek me out-but what do you think is up with the change in affection seeking & wanting to be right up against me? Do you think her walks have anything to do with the change? I mean aside from energy-I'm stumped & she's ain't tellin!

 

[mx5055]

Catia,
I have been following this thread since you began it. First, I do want to say that you are in very capable hands with all the advice/help/knowledge that Ruth and other posters are offering you; this forum is a wealth of knowledge.
I have been thinking a bit differently since this thread started, and have refrained from saying anything, just thinking maybe I have not totally understood, but with each successive post you have made I have felt your doubts "speaking" through more and more. What I say is just my own opinion, and not meant to cast doubt/blame....just perhaps another perspective. I know you love Tessa, but after going over this thread for days, I am seriously wondering if Tessa is the dog for you and your lifestyle/expectations. There is nothing wrong if she is not; you started out with wanting a particular type of dog, with expectations of what you would be dealing with, and what this pup/dog would add to your life. You have not gotten what you set out to get....it is no different than if you chose a particular breeder to buy a dog from based on the type of temperament of that breeder's dogs, only to find out that you got a pup/dog completely the opposite. It happens sometimes, and you are not to blame, and neither is Tessa. Sometimes things are just what they are, no right/wrong/blame involved. It is one thing for others to say "you've gotten the dog you need", but they are not the ones who will be dealing with the dog on a daily basis for the rest of the dog's life. It doesn't sound like changing your lifestyle is an option for you....usually not an option for most of us. And, it sounds more and more improbable with each post you make that Tessa might fit into your lifestyle. I think you really need to be honest with yourself here; otherwise I believe you are just setting yourself and Tessa up for failure, and possibly just postponing the inevitable. Tessa is young enough to probably be rehomed at this time without major issues...it would be much harder for her later. It's not a failure on anyone's part, just an unfortunate series of misunderstandings. You should be happy and comfortable with your pup/dog, you will be hopefully spending many happy years together. Tessa should also be happy, and not expected to be something that she is not capable of being. This is just my opinion, and if I am way off base, then I apologize in advance; If I'm not off base, then it is only fair to both you and Tessa to make whatever changes necessary as soon as possible. I truly wish you the best

 

[Catia]

MX5055,
This entire thread is about my conflict, there are no secrets here about it.
My posts get interrupted a lot since i'm busy, so I start, then come back to it later, & 1/2 of the time forget which point I was making--so maybe some things aren't clear as I mean them to be.

My biggest issue is whether or not she is healthy & then whether or not she is a guardian breed, in that order.

If she's just a stubborn breed, it's no big deal.

I am however quite out of my league if Tessa winds up being TM, & I am not afraid to admit that openly.
But, either way, she's not pure-bred, so we don't know where her temperament would land.

Yes, I get frustrated, because I adopted a puppy, & this puppy isn't being a puppy, or similar to any puppy I've ever experienced in 20+ yrs, actually I can say 40+ yrs, & that fact worries me.

Could be she is a rare breed TM & just has this type of temperment & requires special training & a different environment.

Something isn't quite right & I don't know what it is, & I am trying hard to find out, because I want Tessa to be a happy puppy.

I *know* I have some limitations due to my health, & lifestyle-but my lifestyle is not usually anything that would affect a pooch-but I've never had a TM & I take the owners with experience very seriously. I am not sure if I could handle a dog with the will of a TM's guardian side, I understand fully that they are different & have different requirements.

Fact is, at this point, I do not even know if Tessa is even TM, so no, I am not trying to rehome her-
That'd be insane to do based upon her appearance alone.

I need to know what I am potentially dealing with at this point, & that is what I am doing.
I've ordered the genetic test & that will give me a yes or no on the TM.

In the mean time, I'm more an Occam's razor type, I am also looking into wobblers & hip dysplasia, she sometimes does a weird walk from the hind end, but could be the way she is growing. Vet completely dismissed it, twice.
She doesn't appear to be in any pain, but animals can't speak.

I love this girl, but something is different, or wrong, I do not know which.
I am trying to get to the bottom of it, because I want her to have all of the enjoyments of puppyhood.

The chances of Tessa being 1/2 TM are so slim, the odds are in my favor she is not.
And that's where I am hoping the cards fall, I want my gentle, floppy, lovable pooch, & I want her to stay that way.

She may have some type of health issue, she might be partially deaf for all I know, she sleeps like the dead.
And yes, I know pups sleep a lot, but this is different, I live with her, something's off, & I've been trying to figure it out from the beginning.

Recently I found about about black & tan retrievers, they look strikingly similar-she could be some type of hound, she may not be guardian at all. People have mentioned she might not even be part rottie.

I am trying to leave no stone uncovered, because I love her.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Catia - I can honestly say, 99.99999% positive that Tessa has TM in her and it is a strong side by the looks of her. Yes she is most likely a mix, but that mix is half TM. As for her walk....does she wiggle when she walks? Sort of like snake hips? If that is a concern of yours dont let it be, Mooshi is a wiggler as well, its normal.

 

[chuckorlando]

If that pup wondered in my yard, I would not think of anything but a TM. I dont know anything else that looks like that be it fluffy or not.

 

[cayeesmom]

Catia, I understand completely how you feel. When I picked up my Luke I found out that he was poss a EM/Fila mix. Had never heard of a Fila and saw the male, just thought he looked like a mastiff with a hound face, no big deal. Ended up on this board while researching Fila, [ something I should have done before I got him], due to his white markings I was told that there was big chance he was part Fila. Then I got scared, a dog with a Fila temperament would be way to much for me, I'm older too, was not worried about his size, [ had a giant before and have worked with dogs for 25 y] but also have a 14 year old daughter a home, so lots of teenagers in and out in the house and back yard.
The more I learned about the Fila the more I thought, I'm in over my head. Now Luke was very young when I got him, so there were no way of telling if he had a temp or not but I was so hesitant that I did try to rehome him, not only for my sake but also for his. The only couple I felt comfortable with backed out. Long story short, Luke is still with me and is not going anywhere, once I decided to chance it and keep him I started to focus on Luke and not on the possible Fila in him things got so much better. I was lucky since I could take him to work every day and expose him to different people and animals, don't know if that made any difference, but he is now 6 month loves people and animals, no problem with new people coming around. will alert if someone he don't know comes to the back gate, but more then that he is almost to friendly,lol.
Not sure if TM will show on a Wisdom panel [ I hope it does!] and know your situation/breed is different, you have to do what is best for you and for Tessa. If you keep her my advice would be not put all the focus on the TM part but on her as a young dog. If you decide to rehome her no one will hold that against you.
When it comes to the what I call "swagger walk", I took Luke to an board cert surgeon to have his hips checked, even he said Luke has a "funky gait" and he "bunny hopped" while running, xray showed hips were fine and he could not find anything els wrong.
I hope once you get your answer on the TM part you feel better about the whole situation.

 

[chuckorlando]

Caysee does your pup walk with both left then both right? If so thats the fila slut walk. Very scientific term coined by anglebears. AHAHAHAHA. Camel's gate is what it is

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Oh God I cant hold back....Camel Gate is better than Camel Toe! Im sorry...I couldnt resist, its Chuck, he brings out the worst in me. Im going now.

 

[chuckorlando]

Oh she has a knuckle like a male horse as a.........

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

You are a bad, bad man!