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I'm getting frustrated with the lack of response

Catia

Well-Known Member
So the past 2 weeks there have been *big changes* with Tessa's behavior, she is seeking me out regularly & is also bringing me toys, she wants to play. She has also had a change in food that makes her much less gassy, & is now on Orijen.

Tessa has been a normal puppy for the past 10 days or so--so much so that she's managed to get on my nerves a few times with her puppy antics--which is normal-
-this has been completely different from my frustration from her disinterest & her not wanting to engage.

She stays close almost always, lol it's been a struggle to keep her out from under my desk when I am on the computer for example.

If I'm doing dishes or prepping dinner, I have to be super careful because she lays right behind my feet if I stand in 1 position, & she's quiet so I don't always know she's there, in the kitchen she's velcro...

In light of what occurred yesterday afternoon with me actually seeing Tessa get sick & now knowing the smell-* then it clicked*-because I've smelled it many times before.

-I think Tessa has had some serious tummy pains & vomiting, on & off, from the beginning, but has been eating the evidence, & it's been going on for a while, because I've smelled the smell before but could never find the source.

Tessa is very mellow & even in her temperament & it is extremely difficult to read her, she's kind of stoic she's so even.

BUT I have felt there is some other type of issue from the beginning that was causing her inactivity, it just did not seem normal to me even for a mellow pup-
She would seem like she wanted to be puppy like, but then would just go lay down & not want to get up.
It seemed she was more "apathetic" not just a mellow puppy.
She doesn't react, she internalizes everything.
If she's having puppy gas/tummy attacks, like a colicky baby, she's of course not gonna want to play, it will cause more pain.
I think this is what might have been going on with her inactivity.
Sometimes she'd be normal & playing, then just lay down & not play anymore.

I did not know by any indication behaviorally, except the fact that she ignored her food bowl when I put it down, that she was sick-until the moment she puked.

Her behavior *after* she puked was very similar to the disinterested puppy of weeks previous, apathetic, almost lethargic.

Having had about 10 days of normal behavior, I now have something to reference.

And now I know what the AWFUL smell has been those times when I've come home & uncrated her & found nothing but a clean crate, but had to air out the room due to the stench.

Now how do I figure out what's causing it, it's been less since her completed food switch to the Orijen.

Babies get colic--can pups?
She doesn't have parasites.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Donno on colic.

I'd drop all treats, and use her kibble as much as possible for treats instead (subtract it from her meals if you need to), and then give her at least 2-3 weeks like that and see what if any changes you get.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
I have been following your thread, although not commenting as we have TM experts/fanciers who have been offering excellent insight and advice. I am very pleased to hear about Tessa's progress and the improvement in your relationship and bonding!

However, I would be extremely concerned about the vomiting and have her seen by a vet asap! Over the years, we have had puppies and dogs with sensitive stomachs and issues such as Inflammatory Bowel Disease that caused chronic vomiting. But I would never have described the products as having an 'AWFUL smell' or stench. Really foul smelling barf could be due to a completely benign cause such as eating poo (does she do this have you noticed?). However, it could also be caused by something very serious such as kidney or liver disease, pancreatitis, partial blockage so that the food stays in the gut too long and ferments,bacterial infections and so on.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Trying to keep the 'TM journey' stuff in 1 place.

On Tessa getting sick-she bounced back-next day.

I am sticking to her food as treats for now & watching her poo, which is pretty much normal & almost as firm as it should be.

Want to note: Orijen large breed puppy is a VERY STINKY food in comparison to say Wellness/Natural Balance/Solid Gold.
It has a heavy fishy amine type of smell with a heavy beefy tone as well. Think dirty fishtank mixed with beef gravy...

I measure out & seal individual meals in plastic bags for the entire bag when I open the bag, to keep it fresh.
By the time I was done portioning out the bag, I was damn near nauseated from having my face in it for 1/2 hour.
When it comes back up as vomit, well, it wreaks to high hell.

Tessa has been known to be a turd burgalar, but much less on the Orijen.

She is back to 3 feedings per day on week days & 4 times per day on my non-work days.

Instead of putting her meal in a bowl, I now scatter it across a 3x5 rug so she has to eat more slowly, as she can inhale a cup of food in under a minute if it is in a bowl.
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear Tessa is doing better, and I love scatter feeding, not only does it help with them slowing down on scoffing their food its a good game for them to play.

Also glad to hear that Tessa is being much more of the 'puppy' you were hoping for. I would still say it wouldnt be a bad idea to get her checked over by your vet, maybe do a stool and urine sample to make sure there are no real concerns related to her being sick, its better the be safe than sorry.

Just a quick thought - did the being sick start before or after you took her swimming? I wonder if maybe she drank some of the pond water and there is a relationship to that making her sick. Stagnant (sp) water can have some negative effects on the tummy and may be worth checking out if it continues. I know when I take Mooshi to a local pond the first thing she does is gulp down a whole load of water only to bring it straight back up again and there is nothing, short of not taking her there, I can do to stop her. I keep a close eye on her for a couple of days after and as long as she isnt being sick or lethargic I dont worry, but if she was I would take her straight to the vet.

Another thing I always keep at home is Pro Kolin paste, it works wonders for upset tummies and helps rebalance the good bacteria. I wouldnt be without it!
 

Sadies Mom

Well-Known Member
Coconut oil also has some antibacterial agents that could help with her tummy. I posted a video in the "Coconut Oil ???" thread. Here it is
[video=youtube;ND8doiVSLDw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND8doiVSLDw[/video]
 

kbuchanan66

Well-Known Member
COCONUT OIL is the bomb diggity! I even give it to my new stray cat to help with his overall coat and health. Barron loves it too and licks it right off the spoon. He gets some rubbed on his nose when its dry as well.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
I've been doing VCO for years, on my skin, in my food, sometimes the cats want it, but Tessa is *insane* about it-I now have to keep it locked up.
Sucks that it's so expensive here, in central america it's at every market & cheap.

Tessa got sick Saturday late afternoon/early evening the day before she was swimming, which was late Sunday afternoon, so that wasn't the issue.

Sunday afternoon Tessa got the full behavioral evaluation & a training session.
Trainer showed me how to notice one her very very subtle signs of stress. It's just a matter of a few breaths, it's extremely hard to notice & I missed it, I thought she was just breathing that way because she was sniffing the other smells.

He has me starting with "Protocol for Relaxation" so Tessa can learn relax & defer to me in different situations.
It also is supposed to be a beginning step for helping her focus on me.

She scored less than 90% in focus & attention.


It is a 14 day program, I am to do it once per day, but I am to not move to the next day until she is consistantly getting all of steps at 90% or better.
I think I might do it twice per day, because I just don't see a dog getting the conditioning doing a 10 min exercise 1x per day.

Also, he has me doing mini time outs, with her leashed on a door knob for a few min when she gets too wound up with the cat & doesn't listen when I tell her 'leave it'.
I just tried it & she seemed to get it-that comes as a suprise.
We'll see if it continues to work--I have a feeling I will be doing this many times because she gets the most wound up with the cat.
Redirecting worked sometimes, but not enough.

It's cute to watch them play, but Tessa is too clumsy & rough, she has no off switch yet.
Plus I get worried she's ***tasting*** the cat she mouths him so much.
She only does this to one cat, my super twerp, who LOVES big dogs, & does antagonize her.
When I am correcting Tessa he runs up to her and rubs on her...
She leaves my other cat alone except for the occaisional sniff, & once in a while a chase.
I take her to my friends house & she's doesn't bother his 3 cats, & she doesn't bother anyone else's cats period.

He also said she has extremely low reactivity. He said he doesn't see her becoming aggressive.
I asked what type of job I could give her with her temperament if I can get her focus better.
He said she has the potential to be a therapy dog.

And with that, I'm confused, I'm not sure if that means she doesn't have the potential for a more active job, but she can sit & get pet--meaning a nice way of saying she's kind of lazy, or if there is a lot of learning involved & it would be something she can do to keep her mind working.

She needs something that keeps her mind occupied & engaged even if it's not very physical is where I'm going with it--I live with her-I see those wheels turning.
here is what I mean:
My last girl needed less mental stimulation, even as a pup. She was mellow temperament too, but not 1/2 as mellow as Tessa.
She was so quick to learn commands & handsignals, I never needed to teach her to focus on me.
She would be perfectly fine with a session of fetch & then curling up on the sofa or bed. Or with a bone. She seeked affection.
She did not get bored with the simple things & was easily pleased & contented just being with me. A good bone could keep her happy til it was gone.

Tessa is less physically active but needs more mental challenge & stimulation-Tessa is easily bored.
I'm not so sure she'd be content just sitting & getting pets, she's not an affection seeker in that way.
I don't doubt she would do it, she can already relax almost anywhere, but I think she'd be bored, & would just tolerate it.
While Tessa loves bones, she isn't content with it for long & can get up & walk away from it, it doesn't keep her focused for long.
Now if the bone could get up & walk at varied intervals that might keep her focused if it did not develop a pattern...

I'm not sure what other types of jobs there are for dogs, but I want her to have one because she gets bored-I think it is necessary.

How do you keep a thinking dog from getting bored without going mad?
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Keep coming up with new things to teach him lol. We're currently considering teaching Apollo to scent track.

There are TMs who do therapy work. Not tons, but a few, and it does require some picking and choosing of patients.

Lack of reactivity doesn't mean lack of protection drive. Just that nothing he's doing is triggering it. I don't know if you know what the ATTS is, but its basically a test of a dog's reactions in a variety of situations from neutral to friendly to mildly threatening. Only 17 TMs have ever taken it, 8 have failed. Of the 9 who passed I know of at least one who passed it by being completely non-reactive. Sit and watch. The dog HAS protection drive, but she accurately determined no threat, therefor, no reaction. But again aggression is not the same as protection drive which can result in an aggressive reaction.

And yup, thats exactly what I mean by subtle body signals. Many guardian breeds, even those who's serious guardian days are long past like alot of the mastiffs, simply don't show anything that might make them seem weak. TMs are just especially bad about it. Stress is a weakness, show it and you become a target.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Oh, for coconut oil, check amazon.com, I just ordered a 54oz jar for $26.50 with free shipping (thanks AB!), so much cheaper than local!
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
re: VCO- think i paid $29 for mine-same size.

Well, I am *really* warming up to the protection aspect as long as I can still do things with her.
I need her to not lose contact with reality for unnecessary reasons.

Trainer says he just can't ever see her being guardy or protective.
I told him I can appreciate that BUT I'm dealing with a group of people that have TM's,
& this is what I've been advised they *will* eventually do when they reach maturity.
Even if she's only just part, I'm better off being proactive. If I can do anything now to aid in her stable decision making abilities, I know I need to do it.

"Lack of reactivity doesn't mean lack of protection drive"--I fully agree.

At this point, Tessa doesn't bark, she listens to the other dogs sounding off all around us & is aware, but doesn't go off barking also.
I would love for it to stay that way, because I've read TM's can be constant barkers.
Actually, the only times she does bark is when she wants back into the house & sometimes when she's playing with the cat, or if she gets stuck under the bed lol.

I don't know if I posted before about my last girl-she *did* protect me, but she was not guardy at all.
But at 110lbs, most people wouldn't try anything stupid anyway, she had a presence & a big woof.
I can count the times on one hand-over 13 yrs, & each time was fully warranted IMHO.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
People still to this day meet Apollo and tell me how sweet he is and obviously everything they've heard about TMs being guardy isn't true......he has the entire vets office convinced he's the biggest fluffiest sweetheart ever.

Apollo's not a huge barker in reaction to other dogs barking, though some TMs are. He'll go check the window when he hears it, but waits to bark, usually, till he's figured out what the problem is.

The best thing for her is what you're doing. Socialize and train, and when you think you're done, double it.

Wish I could get VCO for that price local!
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Someone just mentioned it in another thread and reminded me, if she continues to have trouble with vomiting mostly undigested food have her checked for megasophogus.
 

thelady_v2010

Well-Known Member
I spoke to my husband last night abut Tessa and he agreed with me to take her to the station several times. Have you gone yet?
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Have not taken Tessa to the station formally to do any walk thru etc, that will have to be scheduled, it's a busy station.

A few times I've taken Tessa for walks in the rain, I love to walk around in the rain & I don't want her being too prissy to go pee in incliment weather...

All yesterday evening & night it rained & thunder & lightening all through the night. I had the windows open so I could listen to the storm, it was a whopper & power was knocked out in many places...

Anyway, I can tell you thunder doesn't spook Tessa, at least not so far- & she was all about watching the storm & asked to be let out more than once & seemed quite curious but not scared about all of the commotion. Basically it excited her.
Drove me nuts til about 1:30am, when I last let her out, and then succumbed to a wet dog who couldn't decide to go to sleep but jumped in bed for a wet snuggle. UGH!
Some serious unpleasantries & explatives took place about 2am, & i guess she realized I meant business about getting some sleep & did infact settle the *F* down, & went the *F* to sleep.
6am came way too early today.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
I have learned tonight that Tessa's lack of response--or rather "Low Reactivity" can be a wonderful relief in crazy situations.

I live on the top of a mountain, in Pittsburgh, viewing 3 rivers & our stadiums. Tonight I did a night walk & decided to head up to the main overlook since the weather was nice & Tessa was up for a longer walk. People were crowding everywhere fast, shortly after I got there, then I heard people talking about viewing the fireworks after the Pirate game...

& I'm thinking-- Oh Sh*t!--cuz there was no turning back & avoiding the situation at that point, & I was all worried she'd get skrewed up & stressed out by the combination of people, noise, explosions & visuals & then they started.

--And I worried about some type of fear imprinting.

...And...*I* had to pay close attention looking for a reaction, because she appeared just fine, could've cared less for the most part.

Now the show wasn't very long, maybe 10 minutes, not like 4th of July, & it wasn't as loud because they were launched from inside the stadium & not on the river, but it was loud & echos making the explosions sound like it's coming from all directions, still will rattle the windows.

The only thing that was somewhat different with Tessa was that she sat facing the opposite direction-I was for a min or two watching the fireworks, trying to get Tessa to look-- Tessa was sitting & then standing like she was making sure what was behind me-& beside me-like a mini securing my perimeter???

She appeared a tad more alert, but still relaxed, no pulling on the leash or anything.
People kept approaching her & she was completely receptive, so mostly I tried to watch her reaction, because well, it's *fireworks* & a 5 1/2 month old puppy -but business went on as usual-Tessa style, as if there wasn't a firework in the sky.

And, I breathed a massive sigh of relief :)

I'm trying to decide what I should do with her for the 4th of July-for the real deal.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Good girl Tessa!

Apollo's pretty unfazed by fireworks. He'll bark at the first few, but then he'll figure out that its not a threat and ignore them. Last year on 4th of July we took him to my Inlaws house cause we can watch the local big show from their front yard. Its far enough away not to be hugely loud, but we can still see it. Hubby was setting off little poppers for the various nieces and nephews and friends, and Apollo never even blinked.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
While waiting for DNA results, I've just been trying to focus on just basics with Tessa & not enter anything new, because a level of frustration was definately there for me, & I had been getting confused.

Somedays it seems like we've come far, Tessa is house trained, crate trained, is pretty good for loose leash walking. I've worked the most on her socialisation, kids, dogs etc, daily.

Now enter in the teething & jaw settling, & well, it feels like everything is coming to a stand still. It seems the only thing aside from her walks that we (I) work on is "no", "leave it", "drop it". Baby gates abound & I can't even trust her for 2 minutes so I can run to pee.

My biggest frustration comes from the fact that Tessa can't seem to be contented by any 1, 2 or even 3 chew toys.
With every other dog I've had, yes, they're destructive when teething & jaw is settling, but you give them something to chew on & that does the trick.
Yes, you have to change it up with toys every so often & redirect-but they can maintain a contentedness in chew toys that allows you a break from constant redirecting.

Not so with Tessa. She doesn't even have a favorite toy, so redirecting & putting something in her mouth doesn't work well.
When she does on rare occaision find something she likes, it is short lived & she loses interest pretty fast. My house looks like a bomb went off, Tessa does seem to like corragated cardboard to rip up & chew, & sometimes wooden sticks, and old wool carpet sample she likes to pull to shreds--I'm fine with that, but none of these things keeps her interest very long.
Tessa is mellow & quiet--but she doesn't get contented.
Mellow & quiet does not equate to good-& this seems to be misunderstood by people.

I'm exhausted from feeling like my eyes must be on her at all times-because she watches & is aware of every movement I make even when she appears to be snoozing. She is so patient & will wait for an opportunity for my eyes to be off her--even when she's a few feet from me.
I am always gated in a room with her, because it has to be this way. Even then, she manages to get into things so so very quietly-& fast.
I try hard to wear her out, bodily, because then maybe her mind will stop-
She is a different type of destructive because she gets bored, I think this is more of a mind thing than a teething thing.

I am having a hard time seeing the light at the end of this tunnel.
Can a TM get to a level of trustworthiness in the house?

I am not sure if Tessa will ever be able to be trusted outside of a baby gated room without constant supervision. For instance, it is to the point where I can't even make dinner, & I drop from exhaustion, and hour & 1/2 walk before bed & still she wants to tear up everything. From 5:30 til midnight or 1am it is this way. She is no longer sleeping through the night, & I am back awake at 5-5:30 am.

Because She is crated while I am at work, I do not like to do that when I am home, and I feel that just makes her mind go more, & will create an aversion to her crate, so I have her in the room I am in, but use baby gates. And she doesn't use any chew toys when crated, I've given them to her, but she doesn't like any of them.

Honestly, I'm exhausted. I would love to find one thing that will keep her contented, I can even give her a good marrow bone, but she looks for other things.
In trying to exhaust her to the point where she will just sleep so I can get a break from the constant supervison, I'm beyond exhausted. It is pretty much constant focus on Tessa from 5:30-til past midnight.
Somewhere there's got to be a better way, I am so tired, just exhausted, that even thinking of training anything other than no/leave it/drop it seems impossible.
Redirecting does not work, she seems to make a game of it.

If I am actively engaged with her, she is fine, like fetching or walking-but I can't keep playing fetch or walking for 7 hours--How do you teach these dogs to play with a toy & self soothe?

And Tessa's habit of not getting up, or throwing herself at the floor when she doesn't want to do something has not really improved much.
Now she throws herself at the floor & belly crawls to get under bed or sofa.

Thing is, because she is so mellow & quiet, & low reactive I feel like the trainers I have asked to guide me ***DO NOT*** understand.
They see her sitting there appearing perfectly obedient.
Personally, I don't feel they 'get' a thinking dog-& Tessa is a thinker, she's an observer & she will out wait their efforts...
Since she's not jumping up & berzerking like the other dogs they deal with, I don't think they understand it's her mind that is active.

Also, I don't feel they quite equate that she behaves completely different both in my house if the trainer is here, or if I take her there. The mere presence of a 'non regular' person in her environment makes her alerted & focused differently.
I think what I am trying to explain is that they're probably never gonna see it cuz they do not live with her.
When she is relaxed & it's her & I is when it occurs. Enter in any different element & her focus is different, because whether they see it or not (due to her mellowness & low reactivity), she is focused on the fact that they are present, & they don't see it!!!!

Does this make any sense? I feel like I'm going nuts myself trying to explain-& I am loosing faith that the 2 trainers I seek guidance from really have a clue.
I do not think they buy that Tessa thinks differently, or that she 'thinks' --and Tessa DOES THINK--
I feel like I am getting dismissed as if I am telling them I have a unicorn...

Why do most believe a dog cannot think & make decisions?
I had a hard enough time trying to wrap my own head around the concept, & am not sure how it really works, but it seems a trainer should understand this about independent breeds.
Also want to note, neither of the trainers believes Tessa to be an independent breed.
Also I'm starting to believe that neither has any real experience with independent breeds, despite what they've said.
They seem to think she is unfocused & maybe just stuborn--

I'm going to give my assessment:
Tessa is not unfocused-quite the opposite-she is completely focused on what she wants BUT will appease you & bide her time --for however long it takes-she remembers the thing she wanted to do--even if you redirect her attention elsewhere--for hours. She remembers details also.
Now does this sound like crazy talk? Am I nuts for thinking this is what my pooch is doing?

Maybe I am reading too much into her behavior, but this REALLY seems to be what is going on.
-Tessa can put her wants on the back burner til the opportunity arises --but I'm being told dogs can't do this...That it's too complicated a thought process for a dog.
And I'm asking--because I feel like I need a reality check--If dogs can't think that way--then I need to change how I am perceiving.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I think we started trusting Apollo out of his crate for extended periods when he was about 9 months. But even then.....there was one time we came home from a fairly short run (hour and a half or so) and discovered he'd pulled everything off my husband's desk, shredded the paperwork, and opened the bottle containing the cat's (chicken flavored chewable) thyroid pills and ate them......he was standing in the middle of the mess laughing at us when we walked in the door. At two years old he's plenty trustworthy now. The only time we have problems now is if Arty (not a mastiff, but another primitive) starts something, then Apollo will gleefully join in. Arty remains crated for even short runs out of the house.....

I'm not sure I can help with the night hyper run, my hubby works 2nd shift and has always been up and around till 2am or later to manage that.

And yup, you're right. She thinks. She remembers. She lays in wait. And she's not going to goof off infront of a stranger, or at least "non-family", cause she has to be able to watch them.

Will she "take a nap" with you? If you lay down on the couch will she stretch out either on the couch with you, or on the floor next to you? Apollo has always seemed to appreciate that sort of thing.