CC Question - Americanized vs. true Italian

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Ohhhh......Gotcha Mary. I knew there were shades of grey in all standards but for the Corsi I had no idea there are 3 standards. Talk about confusing...

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

There should be small difference in each standard (been a bit since I compared them all) but again if you are importing from a place that has a different one it can make a difference.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

If its like my danes with importing that's for sure.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

If its like my danes with importing that's for sure.

Well we know how I feel about the Danes here in NA LOL! You will hear that Italy has the heads nailed and bodies are an issue and you will hear heads are an issue in the US but bodies are better. And various breeders will tell you one is easier to fix than the other. And you will hear temperament is an issue on both sides of the world. In the end no one is the corso police and can prevent someone from breeding their dogs as much as we would like to (and there are for sure some that I think most corso people would like fixed) all we can do is educate the buyers to know what to ask and look for.

 

[Cody]

Mary you speak of pedigree's as the be all end all in looking at a dogs lineage. A pedigree is just a piece of paper, easy enough to put what ever dog (especially if you have multiple) you want as the sire. I do not understand the stock put in in pedigree's, in order to be correct you need to ensure that the breeder and those before them were ethical And we know that ALL breeders are ethical now don't we... The mixing of breeds does not just go back to the "recovery" period, lets be honest here...

 

[thelady_v2010]

I would love for honest opinions about my puppy, because I keep looking at him trying to figure out what is off about him.

 

[Cody]

in order to get an accurate critique of a dog you need the right photo's. Side stacked, head profile side and front and front stacked image. It is hard to judge a dog off pet pictures . Also is best to wait until a dog is mature. I have seen great puppies that as adults fall to pieces...

 

[thelady_v2010]

in order to get an accurate critique of a dog you need the right photo's. Side stacked, head profile side and front and front stacked image. It is hard to judge a dog off pet pictures . Also is best to wait until a dog is mature. I have seen great puppies that as adults fall to pieces...

I hear you. In the end, it doesn't really matter. Our trainer said something about his eyes being too far apart, and my husband was like "are you saying he has alien DNA?" So yeah, we don't really care, but since I have gotten him I have become obsessed with the breed.

 

[Cody]

So yeah, we don't really care, but since I have gotten him I have become obsessed with the breed.

That's where it all starts

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Well we know how I feel about the Danes here in NA LOL! You will hear that Italy has the heads nailed and bodies are an issue and you will hear heads are an issue in the US but bodies are better. And various breeders will tell you one is easier to fix than the other. And you will hear temperament is an issue on both sides of the world. In the end no one is the corso police and can prevent someone from breeding their dogs as much as we would like to (and there are for sure some that I think most corso people would like fixed) all we can do is educate the buyers to know what to ask and look for.

Mary this is so TRUE and I agree %100. :thumbsup:

PS I love his harley dane ( OT i know)

 

[dogman#1]

View attachment 21762

Ok, my opinion of course

Circles = Neo Influence
Square= Boxer
Blank= "Correct" Corso?

Edit IGNORE the black dog in the upper right hand Corner to me it does not look like anything. IMO.

Next turn.

See DD? It doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that these dogs are either mixed bred or cannot possibly fall into 1 breed standard.. all one has to do is look at the fine points. If everyone just looks quickly at any dog it is easy to see resemblance but once you really start looking the differences are all too apparent. that black dog in the corner looks like a great dane mix to me.

 

[dogman#1]

I think you would be surprised to see the boxers, neos, Rotties, pitts, danes that are with in the past couple generations of most of these Cane Corsi, the recovery period didn't happen that long ago and while you would think that at this point most of the non-corso blood should be out of the dogs there are some that still added it in only a generation or two ago and still pass them off as pure. If people are that interested they can go to the Cane Corso database and look up a pedigree for most dogs but genetics is funny isn't it you can hide things with it and you can bring them out, just depends on how well you know the lines and what you are trying to bring out or make disappear.

So just for the sake of argument which one dogman do you consider a correct Cane Corso in the picture? Outside of Basir that was the dog the standard was written on? We could post a bunch of different pictures up here of dogs that fit the standard and that people prefer so who's opinion is the right one? And this is based just on head, what about the rest of the body and the temperament of the dog? You have a temperament test before your shows, they don't have those at the AKC, CKC, UKC, CFC or any other that I am aware of, but if they did I suspect you would see far few Champions then you do now.

Also unless they are breeding or showing I am not going to cut down someone's pet. You might think that is fair of you to do for your breed but they love their pet and don't deserve it. It is why most ask if they breeding or showing and if they say yes or maybe and are asking a opinion then they are given an honest one.

O.K, knowing that I am not a CC guy and I dont know who Bashir is I had to look at the pics and pick out two dogs that resemble each other enough that they appear to be within the same standard... so the top left one (black dog) and all the way to the right towards the bottom there is a brindle dog... I would say, judging from these pictures that those 2 dogs are from a certain breed. I can try and wedge a few other dogs into a different breed but that would be a stretch. So remember it isnt about which one I think is correct it is which one (based on these pics) appear to be part of the same breed. the other can't be correct if they are not within standard.

Now about what I said about letting people know the truth..... I never said to go and start telling people that their dog sucks, I said IF they ask. if someone puts up a pic and says "I cant believe how lucky I got to get such a great example, what do you guys think?" IMO that person is asking for critiques. if the dog is the breed wreck then someone's gotta say something before it gets bred. Now if someone puts up a pic of their wreck playing with their kids then NO, you obviously dont give critiques, they werent asked for nor are they warranted. now if that same person says "I really love this dog and want puppies out of her"... then you better tell them the truth.

 

[dogman#1]

So I'm confused, then where did this "open to interpretation" come from? Shouldn't there be just the "standard"

"The more vague a standard becomes the more open to interpretation it is. Imagine a standard that says: molosser type, all colors, no max weight, must be balanced, eyes/ears appropriately placed, etc."

What is a molosser "type", big, tall, heavy, muscled, wide? ALL colors? harlequin, spotted, black, white...everything? must be balanced? I think a grey hound is balanced but an english bulldog is not... others see it the other way around. what is appropriately placed? "It looks appropriate to me".. understand? w/o a clear cut standard it is impossible to get a clear cut breed.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Mary you speak of pedigree's as the be all end all in looking at a dogs lineage. A pedigree is just a piece of paper, easy enough to put what ever dog (especially if you have multiple) you want as the sire. I do not understand the stock put in in pedigree's, in order to be correct you need to ensure that the breeder and those before them were ethical And we know that ALL breeders are ethical now don't we... The mixing of breeds does not just go back to the "recovery" period, lets be honest here...

I in no way did I said they are the be all and end all and I think we are both more than aware of pedigrees that don't match who they say are the parents. But if you are going to start researching then a pedigree is certainly a piece of the puzzle wouldn't you say. You have said yourself that you spend hours pouring over pedigrees or was I mistaken about that?

I mentioned that in the recovery period they were mixed but I also said "I think you would be surprised to see the boxers, neos, Rotties, pitts, danes that are with in the past couple generations of most of these Cane Corsi" so please tell me where I am not being honest about other breeds being mixed in.

Dogman, there are lots of people that ask an opinion but to be honest they don't really want it. They love their animal and they want to hear the dog is beautiful. You may feel free to educate them all you want but 90% don't really want to know. I will ask do you really want to know as it can come across harsh and if you aren't breeding why does it matter, it won't change how much you love your pet. If you are breeding you better have thick skin because people will tell you what your dog looks like whether you like it or not, there are lots of people out there that are Cane Corso police and run around telling people what they have and don't have or not to breed, etc. I would rather education the buyers than fight with the breeders about what they should or shouldn't be breeding.

PS DD that is a beautiful Dane... why don't you get him and then I will just take him off your hands for you

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

See DD? It doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that these dogs are either mixed bred or cannot possibly fall into 1 breed standard.. all one has to do is look at the fine points. If everyone just looks quickly at any dog it is easy to see resemblance but once you really start looking the differences are all too apparent. that black dog in the corner looks like a great dane mix to me.

Dogman how many times must I tell you this, lol, tsk tsk...... I don't eat live,breath, and eat Corsi. I see influences yes but does that mean they are not Corsi. From what I read I believe Mary even stated there were "3 different standards" so what's the say that these dogs aren't "correct?" I'm pretty sure some of these above type of dogs compete, won, and have been breed to the Corsi name.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

"The more vague a standard becomes the more open to interpretation it is. Imagine a standard that says: molosser type, all colors, no max weight, must be balanced, eyes/ears appropriately placed, etc."

What is a molosser "type", big, tall, heavy, muscled, wide? ALL colors? harlequin, spotted, black, white...everything? must be balanced? I think a grey hound is balanced but an english bulldog is not... others see it the other way around. what is appropriately placed? "It looks appropriate to me".. understand? w/o a clear cut standard it is impossible to get a clear cut breed.

So......then people can't really complain about the dogs as their standard allows this......

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

PS DD that is a beautiful Dane... why don't you get him and then I will just take him off your hands for you

Haha, I wish I WANT him so bad, hes about one of the 3 harls I've seen, I've liked. Minus the eyes.....ugh....that damn haw. Yet its considered a fault in the standard.......

 

[dogman#1]

there can be a billion standards... unless one specifically states "it must be half Neo or great dane" then there is no way some of those dogs should be considered Corsos... get what I'm saying? Now if the standard is intentionally left so vague that any dog can be wedged into it then that is a sign that breed is not fully established yet... if that is the case it is more of a type than it is a breed like lurchers, etc.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Eh....not really given the wiggle room in most standards or the fact that some breeders/judges blatantly disregard it, like some sort of doggy loophole.

 

[dogman#1]

"wiggle room" is not full out sprinting room. Just because the fact that many breeders and some judges "blatanly disregard it" doesnt mean that it is o.k and should be promoted or acknowledged as proper and correct. calling some of those mutts Corsos actually confirms their status in a new comers eyes and goes to be more destructive to the breed later on. Once it has been deemed as exceptable by a group it will become the norm later on.... try and look at it like speeding... if the speed limit is 55 I go 65 because I know most cops have a 10 MPH "buffer zone"... am I still speeding? Yes. Now on the belt parkway the speed limit is 50 and when there is light traffic it is expected that you go at least 70mph, why? because the 10 mile buffer zone became the new unofficial speed limit... see where this is going? give them an inch and they will take a foot... give them a foot and they will take a mile, etc, etc.