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CC Question - Americanized vs. true Italian

Cody

Well-Known Member
retracted nose and pinched nostrils? who the hell would want that in ANY breed. I dont need to know all about a specific breed to understand that certain characteristics are detrimental to function and capability, it is basic knowledge of form and function
One would think, but you can see it often in many CC.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
So of again if Corso were being mixed with "old boxer" would there be an "issue"?
I would have an issue yes. Why mix them with anything? A corso should be a corso. The breed has been created and recognized. It is no longer a type. It should not be bastardized any more then it currently has been. Back in the day in WW2 I am sure it happened in the country side, now it is NOT necessary or correct. If a dog is not correct in type it should NOT be bred period. I am tired of the "have to start somewhere" and the well if I use the right male I can correct the head and structure..." It is BS. Start with the best example of the breed and make it better!!
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Cody like I tell you and Dogman both, I don't know the breed. I have my own "politics." I don't need it here.....I simply asked the question because I curious about the opinions of those actually involved in the breed.

Using my breed as an example......Being technical the US dane is more "correct" based on the historic photos, compared to the Euro counter part as far as type. None had the excess flews, dewlaps, haws, etc characteristics of today's EM and more recently Neos. Yet the Euros (IMO) are more "correct" in body type as far as their structure. Great Danes are tall dogs but they are not giraffes. So IMO neither dogs are correct........

As times change, we change, our dogs, homes, and so forth. I think we tend to forget that many of these breeds were based off a person(s) opinion of THEIR ideal dog. So what about the guy next farm over? Are his dogs less of said breed since he failed to write the blueprints? There could have been Corsi dogs with the “boxer†feature…I don’t know…I do know what I like. Personally I’m not a fan of the “boxerilli†type but like the US danes, I found the type/lines that suits me. Why stress out over someone else line?
Like I stated before, there are or at least should be trademark traits of what makes that breed. Many people are confused by Thor’s and Stone’s appearance, yet even people who knew next the nothing about dogs in general recognized them as….well….Great Danes. J

So overall we have group A and B telling the each other is wrong. Leaving group C ( puppy buyers) in the cross fires of all this. That is a tragedy in itself, imo……CL, Kijiji anyone???
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
Yeap.
Cody like I tell you and Dogman both, I don't know the breed. I have my own "politics." I don't need it here.....I simply asked the question because I curious about the opinions of those actually involved in the breed.

Using my breed as an example......Being technical the US dane is more "correct" based on the historic photos, compared to the Euro counter part as far as type. None had the excess flews, dewlaps, haws, etc characteristics of today's EM and more recently Neos. Yet the Euros (IMO) are more "correct" in body type as far as their structure. Great Danes are tall dogs but they are not giraffes. So IMO neither dogs are correct........

As times change, we change, our dogs, homes, and so forth. I think we tend to forget that many of these breeds were based off a person(s) opinion of THEIR ideal dog. So what about the guy next farm over? Are his dogs less of said breed since he failed to write the blueprints? There could have been Corsi dogs with the “boxer” feature…I don’t know…I do know what I like. Personally I’m not a fan of the “boxerilli” type but like the US danes, I found the type/lines that suits me. Why stress out over someone else line?
Like I stated before, there are or at least should be trademark traits of what makes that breed. Many people are confused by Thor’s and Stone’s appearance, yet even people who knew next the nothing about dogs in general recognized them as….well….Great Danes. J

So overall we have group A and B telling the each other is wrong. Leaving group C ( puppy buyers) in the cross fires of all this. That is a tragedy in itself, imo……CL, Kijiji anyone???
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Cody like I tell you and Dogman both, I don't know the breed. I have my own "politics." I don't need it here.....I simply asked the question because I curious about the opinions of those actually involved in the breed.

Using my breed as an example......Being technical the US dane is more "correct" based on the historic photos, compared to the Euro counter part as far as type. None had the excess flews, dewlaps, haws, etc characteristics of today's EM and more recently Neos. Yet the Euros (IMO) are more "correct" in body type as far as their structure. Great Danes are tall dogs but they are not giraffes. So IMO neither dogs are correct........

As times change, we change, our dogs, homes, and so forth. I think we tend to forget that many of these breeds were based off a person(s) opinion of THEIR ideal dog. So what about the guy next farm over? Are his dogs less of said breed since he failed to write the blueprints? There could have been Corsi dogs with the “boxer” feature…I don’t know…I do know what I like. Personally I’m not a fan of the “boxerilli” type but like the US danes, I found the type/lines that suits me. Why stress out over someone else line?
Like I stated before, there are or at least should be trademark traits of what makes that breed. Many people are confused by Thor’s and Stone’s appearance, yet even people who knew next the nothing about dogs in general recognized them as….well….Great Danes. J

So overall we have group A and B telling the each other is wrong. Leaving group C ( puppy buyers) in the cross fires of all this. That is a tragedy in itself, imo……CL, Kijiji anyone???
That was not really directed at you, the rant part of it lol :) I know that the history of the breed is convoluted. I have no doubts that when the German soldier with his Boxer War Dog wandering through the Italian Country side in WW2 came across a bitch in season a tie happened. That is not what I am saying or my problem, my trouble is the continuation of this now. If one wants a small boned Corso with Boxer features I have a better idea, get a boxer. If one wants a Huge beast that can barely move with excessive wrinkles get a Neo. There are no breed police. Regardless of personal feelings people will do what they do, breed what they breed. That doesn't mean everyone has to sit silently by and not say what they think in regards to this. Apathy is a problem in the breed, all breeds...
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
That was not really directed at you, the rant part of it lol :) I know that the history of the breed is convoluted. I have no doubts that when the German soldier with his Boxer War Dog wandering through the Italian Country side in WW2 came across a bitch in season a tie happened. That is not what I am saying or my problem, my trouble is the continuation of this now. If one wants a small boned Corso with Boxer features I have a better idea, get a boxer. If one wants a Huge beast that can barely move with excessive wrinkles get a Neo. There are no breed police. Regardless of personal feelings people will do what they do, breed what they breed. That doesn't mean everyone has to sit silently by and not say what they think in regards to this. Apathy is a problem in the breed, all breeds...

I harbor no ill feelings Cody, your passionate about your dogs like I am with mine. We know how doggy politics can go. :rolleyes:

:lol: I'll be damned if that's not the same thing say in my breed world. I just chose neither, I chose what I like........my overdone, sloppy, large eared, mast-iffy, blue bloodhounds.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
I harbor no ill feelings Cody, your passionate about your dogs like I am with mine. We know how doggy politics can go. :rolleyes:

:lol: I'll be damned if that's not the same thing say in my breed world. I just chose neither, I chose what I like........my overdone, sloppy, large eared, mast-iffy, blue bloodhounds.
In Danes I am the same lol. I need to get a picture of my friends European Dane, most ask if he is a Mastiff cross ;) He is a lovely boy though and my preference. Everyone has a preference, I understand that. But the breed needs some consistency, the mantra; "If it doesn't look like a Corso then it isn't a Corso.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
In Danes I am the same lol. I need to get a picture of my friends European Dane, most ask if he is a Mastiff cross ;) He is a lovely boy though and my preference. Everyone has a preference, I understand that. But the breed needs some consistency, the mantra; "If it doesn't look like a Corso then it isn't a Corso.

Please do we need some Euro Dane love. I feel so alone, lol..... I get that too, along with other dumb remarks, but most folks recognized my boys as danes. The only characteristics that confuse them is the jowls, I'm constantly reminded how "mastiff like" they are.

I can understand that, I just see those "consistencies" it in a different way. A poor specimen though is a different story.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Lol, Steph and I were just talking about Levi's jowls tonight lmao. Just found a picture of him, he is younger in the picture. Has filled out since :)261886_10150682218010510_305313_n.jpg293587_10150847330910510_1465307120_n.jpg
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Lol, they are a good conversation starter. People would always ask me what the white stuff was on my pants. Thankfully it just peeled right off.

He's beautiful! :grin: Do you have any pictures of him standing? Nothing like the "Apollo" of dogs ( Sorry Ruth)
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
O.K the problem with adding more of anything let along any specific established breed that was used to establish a current established breed is this.... lets take a bull mastiff for instance... long said it is 60% mastiff and 40% bulldog.... ok, so we have todays english mastiff and todays english bulldog... cross the 2 together until you have that perfect 60-40% cross... do you now have a purebred bullmastiff? if you think yes then you need to do some insane amount of studying and research. the point is that this is now an established breed like the Fila Brasileiro, adding another type of mastiff or even an english mastiff or bloodhound, bulldog etc is mute in point. once a breed is established there is no "adding" anything to it, it is what it is. adding anything to it is a bastardization to the breed. working dogs developed over time due to workability (function) and as we all know form follows function and function follows form...could an old world bulldog/EM or bloodhound do what a Fila does? NO!!!!! so why introduce sub standard blood back in? the ones that could work were bred back the ones that dies did not get a chance to reproduce...get it? we are talking working dogs not show dogs here.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Dogman, now I understand. We were on different pages before, no if a breed is "established" than yes, I agree that it needs to be left alone. However there are some cases in "bastardizing the breed can be needed. Renaissance bull dogs, Setter x Dalmations, etc.

I believe there are some cases in which "going by the books" is not necessary. Just depends on the situation.
 

mx5055

Well-Known Member
LOL, I know right, not a Boxer person but damn they looked nice back then. I'm partial to the first and third one myself.

I know this is not a "Boxer" thread, but I absolutely love this one:
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dogman#1

Well-Known Member
The olde English bulldog is a recreation of a breed...it is now its own breed with its own standard...you can't add more bulldog and still call it an oeb. The stuff with the dalmations and such was done because of loss poor breeding practices that gave rise to health issues....the reason the fila was mixed was for money, bigger, black, high ears, short muzzle, round eyes, excessive skin, etc. What purpose other than $ could it be? Maybe uneducated breeders...
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Yet, the renaissance bulldog had to start somewhere to make its own breed? Same with the Dalmation both situations in which a group of individual(s) went against the norm for the sake of the breed. I look up to people like that. To me those people are more "real" than any.

Again that's why I say look at the situation, it won't always be cut and paste.
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
Now you are getting it.. here is the the issue... the OEB people recreated a breed due to the original being lost due to mixed breeding and breeding for looks instead of function.. did the OEB people call their dogs "purebred English Bulldogs"? NO! they intentially set out to RECREATE a breed and their goal was to get away from the established English Bulldog of today, this is quite different from the people who mix breed with other breeds yet still tell their customers that they are 100% pure Fila or CC or GD or whatever. With the dalmations it happened with a study group, was well documented and overseen to ensure that it was done properly. Those Dalmations that have the introduced pointer (I believe it is what they used) blood in them are known and the fact that they have that blood in them is well documented and everyone is aware of that (not a secret).. this is very different from buying an EM, hiding the fact that you are crossing it with Fila Brasileiro and selling the pups as pure bred Fila Brasileiros, isnt it? Well that is the case with Filas and obviously with the Cane Corso as well. Many people set out to create new breeds or attempt to recreate an extinct breed (like the Presa Canario) the key words are CREATE (as in new) and RECREATE (as in it USED to exist). These peopel are not in it to "trick" you into buying a mixed bred version of a current established breed, they are open about the fact that it is NOT the same as the current breed and go on to explain why it was created or recreated... That is a HUGE difference.
 
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