CC Question - Americanized vs. true Italian

[mx5055]

Thanks Mary I have been enjoying reading through the other sites you posted yesterday. I just skip over the egos/drama parts...I am just happy gathering info!!

 

[Tiger12490]

How do you guys feel about the more rustic style opposed to the recreation I know the differences bit do you feel they have the same work drives? If not how could they get the recreation to work like its true CC counter part... also you see the extreme boxer influence in some do you think that is detrimental to the dogs working abilities as a gripping dog?...I do...I know a little about the CC mostly through friends that own the rustic style and many here own both sides..does anyone see a difference?

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[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

When you say Rustic style as opposed to recreation do you mean in appearance type?

The problem is there are so many versions of that the original drives were in these dogs at least from what I have researched or in talking to people. To some there should be next to no prey drive as they were to guard and chasing everything that move might be counter productive to that, some say they should have equal amounts of each. Like I said just depends on who you are talking to and what they think the "original" job for the breed was.

The consensus at the moment seems to be that they were used for any and all jobs that were required which I would imagine would warrant all types of temperament, wouldn't you think?

Do I think the drives are what they used to be? No, not if you listen to the people that were the ones that were around when the breed first came over to the US or if they got to visit Italy (I am still a newbie in the breed, so would have to go with what I have heard unless I get to go to Italy and see the situation for myself) then the dogs we seen today are seriously watered down in comparison. Are there some that have harder lines more in the traditional sense I think so but I suspect like the Fila they are closely guarded and aren't for the faint of heart.

I have both a shorter muzzled and a correct length dogs here in our house but as I haven't worked either on a sleeve or as a catch dog I honestly can't answer that part of your question, you would have to check with someone that does, but there are strong arguments from both sides on being for an against the undershot. There have been heated debates by those that do use their dogs for hogs in regards to what is best but again I don't have that personal experience.

In everyday life do I notice much difference, no. They don't snore worse (my worse snorer is my level bite) I don't find them tiring any faster than the others unless it is due to heat as the shorter muzzled one is black but then again my formentino's aren't far behind in tiring from the heat. I would like to try them in some herding and see if there is a difference in regards to muzzle at that point and if I get a chance I will let you know.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Another argument that always brings out the claws is where do you draw the line on what is acceptable to breed? Are you just breeding a head so if that is correct then the rest doesn't matter? Or as a working dog should the body becomes a bigger factor than the head? If the dog doesn't have the structure that made it such an able working breed should it still be considered a breedable dog? One of the big name breeders that has been in the game a while says that it is much easier to correct a head then structure so she will ensure correct structure when she is breeding. That is how that program is run, there are others that scream blood murder if you breed a dog who's head is not correct saying they are destroying the breed by wrecking what makes it original. It is a slipperly slope and it seems if you are in the thick of it then you must chose one or the other Dogs are often viewed as correct in their own back yard but not in other's which seems to be a growing trend as the breeders grow in our breed.

Temperament for me is a huge thing for me, I have kids and not having a stable dog is unacceptable. What I would have allowed or dealt with before the kids is much different than what I will now. There is a growing trend on instability being bred or overtly aggression being bred that is being passed off as true temperament that is making a huge liability for our breed

To be honest I don't think there will ever be a uniform appearance to the Cane Corso as there is just too many variables that are in play in this breed.

 

[Tiger12490]

Thank you Mary and I agree that the differences where probably based on use as ive seen in pictures of the more Neo style and the more bulldog style even from photos of the "old style" CC I just wanted to get the view of someone in to them...but if there will never be a solid phonetic standard should they be allowed to be shown under the same standard? If theres types how can one be chosen visually over another of differing type..this is where showing and recognition becomes sketchy to me..

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[Ben Curtis]

Temperament for me is a huge thing for me, I have kids and not having a stable dog is unacceptable.

Could not agree more Mary.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

You are where a lot are in regards to whether recognition is and the judges aren't having any better luck. In the same show you can have 2 completely different types put up as BOB and BOS It isn't fun which is why you will hear people say don't put much stock in shows but then what? Then who is right on what the look for a Cane Corso is? It is a difficult breed to get into and a harder one to grasp

 

[chuckorlando]

Do you think ther will ever just split? It often comes up in fila convo. Basicly two types just recognized and judged on their own. I personaly would rather have a solid dog than a pretty dog. But they still need to look like what they are. But even thats probably not what it was. Or there never was one look. Iv'e been looking at some old fila pics from fila411. They dont really look like what we see today from either side in alot of cases

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Isn't that the way show vs work? Its happened time and time again. Sad as it is you just need to find what you like and get it before its gone.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

At this point the corso is so all over the place that tends to be what we recommend you find someone breeding what you think the corso should be or look like and go from there. Will there ever be a split only time will tell as there are very few kennels that actually just prefer work and most show kennels have a couple dogs to their name that will work (and again this depends on your defination of work but in this instance lets say IPO) so the future of the Cane Corso is anyone's guess. And I am sure those that are breeding them 100 years from now will look back on our pictures and not see the same dogs either it is a sad progression of events but I can see it happening, like DD said it has happened to so many other breeds and there is so much discord in our breed that I can't imagine our breed having enough unity to stop it.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Does anyone know if there has every been a breed to not have the split? There has to be at least a few.

 

[jcook]

At this point the corso is so all over the place that tends to be what we recommend you find someone breeding what you think the corso should be or look like and go from there.

I noticed that when i was looking at all these different CC breeders. Some looked more neo-ish, some were really big, others were shorter, some were imported from Italy, etc... My breeder told me he had a judge tell him that his CC was not standard because CC are not supposed to be that big, they are supposed to be shorter and not weigh 140lbs.

The first dog trainer we had told me that Stella isnt supposed to have any underbite, it should be scissor, but then I looked up the standard (on some website) and it said a slight underbite is acceptable... I dont really know or care that much but I would like it if there was more agreement as to what the CC standard should be.

 

[Tiger12490]

Does anyone know if there has every been a breed to not have the split? There has to be at least a few.

I think they all have rifts and opposing views I cant think of one that doesn't..

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[Cody]

According to every standard the correct bite is reverse scissor (tight undershot) although in the Canadian (original CC standard from Italy) and AKC standard level and scissor are accepted (as long as the parameters of the head are correct). In the Italian standard (modified) the scissor bite and pronounced undershot, more then a 1/4 inch is a severe fault. Your trainer is wrong. In the AKC there is no weight limit, it is proportional to breed. This in itself is another debate, weight of the breed... Mary, the breeder you are referring to also says often that "If it doesn't look like a Corso it is NOT a Corso". I think that the 2 should go hand in hand, I wouldn't give up structure for a head, but I wouldn't give up a head for structure. It is possible to have both. That is part of the problem IMO, people "giving up" one for the other rather then not breeding that particular dog in favor of finding one more balanced and correct.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

You know that popular saying about the only thing 2 trainers can agree on is the 3rd trainer is doing it wrong. Well that applies just as easily to the Cane Corso world. A balanced dog that has the correct temperament I think is what people who actually care try to strive for but again you run into what is balanced, if you have a balanced dog at 150 or 160 is that still a Cane Corso? Then where is the line drawn and what constitutes a true temperament? Some think that a Cane Corso should be hands off and that is what if you are striving for correctness is what you should be going for. Others say that the dog should be able to be handled by strangers in a confident manner without issue. Who is right? The judges who are picking completely different dogs in the same ring seem to have no clue, but are being educated at seminars but I don't think are mandatory to attend.

There are those out there trying and there has been some new members added to the CCAA board so perhaps there will be some positive changes, only time will tell. Canada has its own host of problems in regards to the Cane Corso... crap just getting the registration information correct is crazy!

 

[chuckorlando]

I would assume most guardian breeds were hands off back in the day. Dont mean aggressive per se, but hands off just the same.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

^That was my interpretation too from what I read.

 

[Cody]

My question is, looking back at these dogs, they were also raised differently then how we do in Western Society. The "rustic" dogs were NOT socialized, I doubt if many ever left their home. They were chained/tied to the house and thrown food when there was food. We are talking about farm/guard dogs in an impoverished country. Absolutely they were hands off except to their families, who else ever touched them. Now my question is, if these same dogs were raised in today's society, socialized as puppies, went for car rides, slept on couches, visits to PetSmart what would they be like? Just a thought. The same to a degree goes for size, dogs that fought each other for scraps. They were not fed quality kibble, raw based on weight. As evolution has shown us we grow. People today, for the most part, are taller/larger then those of the past. It is the natural progression. Just food for thought. As for types, there is a correct type. The Corso should NOT look like a Boxer, a Bull Mastiff, a Bull Dog. It should look like a Corso. All the standards, regardless of which one you choose to follow, are very specific on that. Regardless of what Judges are putting up, breeders should be breeding to the STANDARD not the flavor of the month winning in the ring at the time. If only correct dogs are put in the ring, that is what the judges will see. Here is a link to the FCI standard with diagrams of what is correct and what is not; http://www.creationcanecorso.com/fci343standard.htm

 

[Cody]

PS- I am not endorsing the kennel above, it is just a link to the standard Oh and PPS- just to avoid any drama, by not endorsing that kennel I am also not bashing that kennel

 

[SavingGrace]

You all bring up a lot of good points, this is so great to read all of this! The reason I started the thread is because our current Corso has a shorter (squished) snout but our 1st had a long snout and a much bigger head. We were told our 1st was "Americanized" and our 2nd is more true to what a Corso should be. I'm not a breeder, I've read the standards for the breed, but I never understood why there were two types for the same breed. The Eurasier, while still a very rare breed, is a breed that hasn't split.

I understand either 'type' is correct and accepted - and we loved our first Corso and love our 2nd - I've just always been curious about why they look so different (granted, Gracie had health issues so she's a lot smaller to begin with)
So in all of your opinions, here's my dogs... The first pic is our first, Bella - the 2nd is our current, Gracie