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Presa pup on Craigslist

AKBull

Super Moderator
Staff member
AB you need to contact her again to let her know its her litter pup. Beverly would really want to know ..
I did email twice. Once when I suspected it came from them, again when I was sure it did. Still haven't heard anything back, but I think it's a 4 hours difference between us.

hey ab im the one whos been emailing you so this guy somehow found out that it was me who made the post of him flipping the poor dog he said he paid 600 to ship the dog up here and there is no contract and that the dog was a great dog i could call bev if i didnt believe him
Yup, knew it was you. :) And after reading what you wrote, the first thing that came to mind was, awesome. And I don't mean that is an great way. I checked Delta to see shipping rates, and there is a chance it might have cost that much if the breeder chose a large kennel to ship the pup in. http://www.deltacargo.com/Portals/2...mals/live_animals-warm-blooded_2012-10-01.pdf And there is that magical 100 bucks for his time and dog food. Hm.
I hope the breeder gets back with me tomorrow. I need to do some more reading on them too.
 

sissie20

Well-Known Member
yeah it does depend on the airline and the kennel size daphne is is flying united in a 2x kennel and i paid around 400 for hers but i hope whoever gets that puppy knows what they are doing i hope you get the pup thoe
 

RamV10

Banned
"Beast" and "look at that head!"???? It looks like an 8 week old pup, how beast can it be?! People can be idiots!
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
So you guys are breaking this guys chops for making 100 bucks while re-homing his dog? A hundred? He probably paid that to a vet for a check-up. The fact is that nobody really knows why this guy has to find a new home for the dog. When someone talks to the breeder I would love to hear what is actually going on.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
So you guys are breaking this guys chops for making 100 bucks while re-homing his dog? A hundred? He probably paid that to a vet for a check-up. The fact is that nobody really knows why this guy has to find a new home for the dog. When someone talks to the breeder I would love to hear what is actually going on.

First off CL has a policy against selling, breeding, stud use of domestic animals. "Rehoming fee" on CL is $100 or less anything more than that is selling. Second, depending on where he got the pup from breeders STRICTLY state in their contract that if a pup/dog can no longer be kept with said family the dog is to be returned to the breeder ASAP.

REPUTABLE breeders do not make money, they lose it. While the initial price of a pup may be "astronomical" to some it pales in comparison to what the time, money, effort, and research a good breeder does. Its pretty obvious you think of dogs are being objects. We don't. Our dogs are part of our family, not something to be sold for quick profit.
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
No we are not busting his chops for wanting to make a buck or a 100 we are busting his chops because we have all seen it before. People buying dogs (or other animals) with the sole intention of making money out of them and what it can and does do to the dog. The majority of users here LOVE our dogs and we have them for that reason, they are not a money making scheme or business to us they are loving members of our family that we would go hungry for before seeing them go hungry. It hurts and angers us that these dogs are being used to make a few piddley dollars at the expense of the animal. Will this guy vet the potential new owners as a proper breeder will? Well if he is only it is for a couple of buck then properly not. What happens to the dog? Where does its future lay? Yes breeders make money, but they are breeders not middle men using dogs to make a couple of dollars. Proper breeders invest thousands of dollars to breed the very best that they can. They put time, effort and heartache in to their dogs and want the very best loving homes for their puppies. Often they make no money at all and in fact lose money when things go wrong. If this case is true and innocent and the guy really cant keep the puppy then fair enough, we understand and sympathise but I get a feeling that this is not the case. There is plenty wrong if this guys is only out to make a couple of bucks with no care whatsoever as to where the puppy lands up. If I had to rehome my TM what would I do? Go back to the breeder! If the breeder couldnt home her then what would I do? Find a GREAT home and not ask for a red cent, I would consider myself lucky she will have a loving and happy home. Because she is what matters to me, because i love her not because I want $$$$.
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
You dont even know for sure if there is a contract. I dont think of my dog as an object--like I said there is no proof that this guy is doing anything wrong. Its all speculation. If you think all reputable breeders dont make a profit you are mistaken. Dont breeders charge if you want to use their dog as a stud? Or do they charge money? When there is any PROOF of wrongdoing by this guy show me. All you have shown is him breaking a rule on craigslist.
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
We didnt say there was a contract BUT if there is then this is wrong in so many ways. And even if there is no contract and he is buying puppies and selling them on to make a profit and is clearly not a reputable breeder it is still wrong in so many ways. We didnt say breeders dont make a profit they do, but this guy is NOT a breeder. Yes we are assuming something stinks with this, but we are assuming it for a reason. We have seen it before and we think it is wrong, wrong, wrong. As I said above this could be innocent and if it is then we sympathise but if its not then its just plain old wrong. We dont just spout off about people for no reason whatsoever. We do it when we think it is fishy, immoral and not in the best interest of the dog.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
You dont even know for sure if there is a contract. I dont think of my dog as an object--like I said there is no proof that this guy is doing anything wrong. Its all speculation. If you think all reputable breeders dont make a profit you are mistaken. Dont breeders charge if you want to use their dog as a stud? Or do they charge money? When there is any PROOF of wrongdoing by this guy show me. All you have shown is him breaking a rule on craigslist.

Your right as of right now we don't know. However if this pup belongs to Bev, I'm pretty sure they'd be FURIOUS someone was flipping their pups. I think your confusing reputable breeders and BYB's. Reputable breeders do not make a "profit", BYB's do.
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
How could anyone not half decent be anything other than furious at their pups being flipped?! i know my breeder made a profit with Moo's litter and I am glad she did, she put a lot of hard work, effort and time to breed the best litter she possibly could. It could have easily been a different story however if the dam only had two pups and medical attention was needed. I hope the small proift she did make will go making sure any further litters will have the funding to be well and properly cared for. By proift I dont mean she is able to buy a new car but she is able to have money to continue the hard and good work she does.
 
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Jerms

Well-Known Member
I dont think that breeders should be the only people to be able to sell a dog. Maybe the breeder would take the dog back but not refund the 800 dollars. This guy might really need the 800. I know I could sure use it. Dog is 800 shipping is 600 possible other fees 100. Going through all this trouble to barely break even and going through the rigamaroll to ship him doesnt sound like a profitable scam to me. He probably really needs to get rid of the dog and is trying not to take a bath on the whole ordeal. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until I see proof of wrongdoing. How do we know this guy isnt making sure the pup is going to get a good home. I dont think we do.

---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------

@Doggen- if reputable breeders dont make a profit, why dont all breeds of dog cost the same? Why would a show quality pup from a reputable breeder cost more than a pet quality dog. They all cost the same to take care of up until 8weeks. Breeders make profits. Ask people on this board they will tell you. The difference is that a reputable breeder makes money doing something he or she absolutely loves. And Like mooshies mom said--there is nothing wrong with it. Its wonderful.
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
@Doggen- if reputable breeders dont make a profit, why dont all breeds of dog cost the same? Why would a show quality pup from a reputable breeder cost more than a pet quality dog. They all cost the same to take care of up until 8weeks. Breeders make profits. Ask people on this board they will tell you. The difference is that a reputable breeder makes money doing something he or she absolutely loves. And Like mooshies mom said--there is nothing wrong with it. Its wonderful.
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
I'm really going to have to disagree with you Jerms. Would you expect a litter of bulldog puppies to cost the same as a litter of lab pups? Would I? Absolutely not. There are so many precautions taken with bulldogs which is why they cost more. Not saying that a litter of lab pups is just a crap shoot. I'm sure there are things decent breeders consider when breeding their labs. I have to agree with DD & Moo's Mom. Reputable breeders may not make a profit on dogs most times. BYB's yes bc they don't care about the well being of the dogs. They don't take all the necessary precautions of health testing & taking the time to find good homes for the pups so that the possibility of rehoming is low if not nonexistent. IMHO, THOSE people love the breed & are only breeding to BETTER the breed not constantly pump more pups into the world with potential health problems which in turn cause heartache on those pup's owners. I would know this from having a 9 month old EM pup that was diagnosed with HD. She only lived to be 7. Do I think that is completely unnormal for a dog of that size to live to be 7? No, BUT when I look back & think about the mornings she had a hard time getting up or when she started getting arthritis before her 2nd birthday...I think that her breeder should've cared when I told her we had issues. But she didn't. She only cared about making money. Shame on us for not doing our research prior to buying an EM & just giving this lady money when she didn't deserve it. It was a learning experience, one of which I wouldn't trade for the world. Jessie was one of the greatest dogs I had ever owned.

I think you completely misunderstand what good breeders do & I would think you would benefit from reading the "why not buy from a BYB" thread in the breeder discussion part of this forum. You might also want to check out the thread by RxGoForth. She rescued 2 EMs from CL, the female ended up being pregnant & rejected the litter. Did she sell her pups? No. She found them great homes & ate all the expenses of vet fees, vaccines, food & time. Just a thought.
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
Im sorry to hear about your dog. The fact of the matter is that you had a wonderful experiend with a beautiful dog for 7 years. There are plenty of dogs that come from reputable breeders that have problems also. I just think that everyone is jumping the gun on this guy without knowing the exact situation. Ive read up on bybs on this forum and im not saying they always have the dogs best interests in mind, but maybe the guy who is rehoming his dog has children to feed and cant afford to take such a hit. I think even the biggest dog lover in the world would agree that children come before dogs. Maybe the guy is moving somewhere he cant bring the dog because he lost his job. Is this not possible. We dont know the facts. This is just speculation.

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

As for the bulldog example--why do breeders get more for show quality bulldogs than pet quality? Because they can. And god bless them
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
As for the bulldog example--why do breeders get more for show quality bulldogs than pet quality? Because they can. And god bless them
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
No...someone with bulldog experience help me out here. Isn't it true that well bred bulldogs have to be artificially inseminated & have to have C sections? I also wouldn't think that a bulldog would have a very large litter either due to their size. I cannot speak from an expanded knowledge of how or why bulldog breeders charge what they do, those are just things that I've read over the years.
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
What im saying is that all well bred bulldogs dont cost the same some are of better quality than others even from the same litter--breeders pay the same to care for each pup no matter the quality. They will charge more for the higher quality because it allows them to make money for all their hard work and dedication to the breed. Im not saying breeders are making millions and Im sure there are some litters they lose money on--but to think that ALL reputable breeders dont see a profit is wrong.
 

northernmastiff

Well-Known Member
Jerms, people are upset because there are a lot of flippers out there and the pups do not receive the best care in the world. Yes, breeders can make money if you look at just the money they get from the litter. People who say they can't are usually under the belief that the breeder is keeping the number of litters down and the proper tests done. Still, even if you look at a litter of 7 pups, we will do labs since this is the breed I figured out originally, with the help of a breeder, the costs of food and care of the pups from birth until they go to their new homes (if they are all sold at 8 weeks), the average amount of money you make for a litter is 79 cents per hour. Yeah, they may get it in one big cheque at the end but what other job do you make so little.

Not to get into the fight too much but just to give you an ideal on the costs of breeding some breeds over others and why some are more expensive. First, my parents bred pomeranians so this is going from their background. Also, this was many, many years ago so the price they made for a puppy was about 650 per pup. Fees to register every puppy is something around 20 to 40 for the puppies. Microchipping ranges where you are but can cost upwards of 80. A pomeranian produces a litter of 1 to 6 puppies, the average being around 1 to 3. Out of all the years that my parents bred poms, we produced one litter of 6 puppies and they were all stillborn. The rest were usually 3 or under. So, when you look at the puppies, you have paid out 300 for three puppies to be registered. Food costs will be about 100 for the 2 months, including the food for the dam. There is 400. Vet appointments can range depending on the female. If you are delivering naturally, you will usually get an x-ray $85 and if you are c-section, you will get a confirmation by ultrasound $35. Overall, you should look to pay at a minimum, 200 for vet care (and that is a really low number, I can't even pay that little just walking in the door). So that is 600, nearly the cost of one pup. That doesn't include your time, the health tests that should be done and so on. Health tests for a pom is hip dysplasia ($270), eye clearances($60), Patellar Luxation (not sure of the price on this anymore), and heart exams (about 100 to 150). So for 3 litters, you have just spent $2735.00. That is if everything goes as planned. If all three litters only produced 3 puppies each time, you made 5850 in total or 3115.00 in profit as you say. I also forgot to take stud fees into account if you use a stud so you are looking at about 2000 in fees for three litters. Since every litter is a 16 week commitment (starting from breeding) and you say you work 40 hours a week for the litter (which you spend a lot more time on) then you make $4.86 per hour. If you have to cover stud fees, you make $1.82 per hour.

So yeah, that is just poms at 650. Labs have a higher feeding cost, they require hip and elbow clearances and eye clearances at the least. There are a few other clearances you can get. Stud fees can range but are usually around 800 to a 1000 and pups sell for between 600 to 1000. The higher expense, as well as supply and demand factor in the cost.

Bulldogs (I have experience here too, although I haven't bred bulldogs), have to do AI for every breeding. Many breeders learn to do it on their own so I am not sure how much it costs to get a vet to do it since the breeder I know does collection and administering herself. But she does have to pay for progesterone tests, which is 80 per test. Then the pups are always delivered via C-section, and it is usually 1500 (more or less). Stud fees are 2000 to 10000 (and yes, she paid 10k for a stud, she purchased him). Litters can be 1 to 10. Ten is rare, 1 is more common so often the high costs of the puppy helps recoup loss when the litter is only 1 or 2 pups. Don't forget that you also have all the other medical and care costs. There are about 10 clearances that you can get on a Bulldog and there are three that should be mandatory. So again, the higher cost.

Pet quality and show quality are often sold slightly higher simply because when you purchase show rights, you are often paying for BREEDING rights. When you purchase a show quality pup on a pet contract, the price is the pet price. A show quality puppy can be sold as a pet while a pet quality pup is never sold on a show contract.

Sorry for the long email, just wanted to explain why some breeds are more expensive and the difference between show and pet quality.
 
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Geisthexe

Banned
I did email twice. Once when I suspected it came from them, again when I was sure it did. Still haven't heard anything back, but I think it's a 4 hours difference between us.

I also emailed Bev last night. I hope she stands up on her breeding pup. Gets the dog back!

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Jerm do you breed?




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