Fila Brasileiro

Ghostsword · Mar 30, 2012

Yep... A old friend of mine used to say the same. It looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks, it is a duck.

People fail to actually understand how dogs evolve. We humans pick up what features we like most and run with it, then those features are fixed, but nothing is stopping someone else changing those said features to something that fits with our purpose.

Neos for example, they are large and slobery, full of wrinkles, some more than others, but select for breeding the ones with better mobility, less loose skin and a better muzzle, a working type, and the dog in two or three generations will change.

Same as with the gsd. You got the working lines and the show lines. I would personally put the show lines down, would kill the lot, but people like them. Who am I to put them down?

and yes, they do look pretty..

A dog that walks down the road with you unable to control it, like we led to believe some filas are? Has anyone ever been to a Brazilian farm? Do you know the amount of people that work and live on a farm? Many of these farms are old school, no tractors, manual labour. Lots of people, women, children, migrant workers. Do you actually imagine a dog that will just bite the lot?

Yes, the dog does not like strangers. The dog will not allow to be touched. The dog guards the handler. That is good. And that is what I want as an instinct.

By the way, I've had GSD's that would not allow people to touch them, would not like strangers and would attack without command. But they were trained, you actually had to show them and instill confidence in them that bitting was ok.

I need to go to a CAFIB show, would like to see those exams at close range, only seem videos and they are too vague, too short.

To see someone agitating a dog with a chair or sleeve is not really a test. I want to see that dog on a bite suit or doing an attack muzzled.

___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword

fila4me · Mar 30, 2012

I have had a nasty Fila, but when the handler is confident I believe t passes to the dog and the dog acts accordingly. During my years of research on this amazing breed all those years ago, that is what was explained to me, even th most aggressive of Fila if of sound mind could have its leash passed to another to hold and as long as that person was not terrified the Fila would ignore that person. As, the Filas attention should be on its handler(owner/person).This has also been my experience with my own personal Fila and those of my friends. Years ago at a show I was askeed by a friend to hold his bitch while he showed his male. This dog did not know me nor did she like me. But friend told me to not look at her and to not attempt to leave ring side with her and all would be fine. He was correct, except I could feel her growling coming up the lead!LOL!!
Filas are to be of sound mind and temperament, they are to be sure in themselves and in their handlers(owners/person) it is this waybecause of the bond that this breed has with its person. So, in a Petsmart situation or in my home I should never have to muzzle my Fila. As far as people, I do not mind being a bitch and telling them to back away from my dog. With a Fila or any guardian breed, you need to e diligent in protecting your dog and breed. If you cannot then you should have another breed! JMHO!

Ghostsword · Mar 30, 2012

Well said.

completely agree with all the points above.

That is exactly how I imagine a fila to be, or how I would like my fila to be. Controlled, obedient and with attention to the handler. In tune so to speak.

The handler says it is ok, the dog stays put and tolerates being around the stranger. Not playing, no touching, not even a pull from the lead, but it tolerates.

And yes, someone is too close, excuse me but you need to back off, otherwise we will have issues.

___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword

dogman#1 · Mar 30, 2012

What can I say...If my Fila would let a stranger walk up to me, let me hand that stranger the lead then that stranger might as well keep that dog because I will not take it back...plain and simple. I have been to the farms in Brazil...they actually have had the same farm hands for YEARS not some random group of people in and out all day long...just wasnt the case. I dont know anyone that says that CAFIB Filas are uncontrollable (except the NON CAFIB folks) I know I can control mine very well, I iknow exactly what they will do in every situation. I think that people get confused when they hear the term "proper temp" to mean uncontrollable lunging maniac...dont know where that came from but it has been said for a while. I guess it is the same way of thinking with the non game dog crowd saying that game bred APBTs are uncontrollable...not true..i wouldnt trust them with other dogs but I wouldnt trust filas with strangers..too easy. The dogs in those pictures were pretty cool looking, no doubt and they werent CAFIB dogs. I have actually heard good things from deer graze...good solid dogs with good health and it is one of the only non CAFIB kennels I tell people to get stuff from if they do not want a CAFIB dog. For those that want to see an untrained dog act like a trained GSD w/ countless hours and years of training I suggest they look elsewhere, the only way to get a trained behavior is to train a dog plain and simple. The videos arent shown to see how well the dog is trained or how well the owner has had the dog trained..it is to see the dog's natural temperament, i really do not see why that is difficult to understand. The reason why CAFIB Filas are not trained for shows is that it masks their natural instincts and CAFIB only wants to breed Fila Brasileiros with proper instinct. Once you have gotten an officila evaluation then by all means train till your arms fall off.

fila4me · Mar 30, 2012

and yet again, I could give a rats ass for a cafib official eval on my filas. They go into temp. testing green and the temp. test is the only time agitation is done. I do not belive that a person who has only met my dog once and then evaluates it can tell me if my dog is correct or not. the proof is in the pudding! i for one have never said cafib filas are uncontrollable. I have stated that I have heard of lots of uncontrollable, muzzle wearing filas out there. That is just incorrect for this breed. I personally have not been to Brazil, but my breeder of my early on dogs did was there for a month and visited and taped his experience there. his experience is the same as what my friends from Brazil have told me. These dogs are not uncontrollable, they are actually very well behaved dogs. Meaning they do their job, as they hae done for centuries. I find it hard to believe that the Filas I have met over the years(almost 20)have not been pure Filas. Sorry you feel that way about your dog, I would like to know how then does your dog handle the friendly stranger situation in TT? My Filas are wary, like they should be, but would not go after or attack as that is not what the Fila is about. If you send people to Deer Graze then you should ask them about the water softner mans experience with her Filas that run the farm when she is not home and at night. They reacted the way a Fila should. he survived unharmed, scared shitless, but unharmed/
I have never stated I have cafib filas, could honestly care less. They are my family, protectors of my home and children. I am a very responsible pet owner, not just Filas, I also have pit bulls. In my household training starts at puppyhood. I want a dog that is obedient and bomb proof living in the city. I have been a fila lover, owner and enthusiast for too long to let some info on the internet change my opinion a breed I have loved and researchd since 1989. My Brazilian friends feel that america has yet again attempted to ruin a truly magnificent breed.For sure we can agree to disagree. Yesw, my dogs were cool looking, i got thm because I likd them, not because of what anyone else thought. They had Fila temperament, as much was said to me by johanny Gomez after he did their TT. i will be the first to admit my Black girl was a throw back to some breed that was breed into one of her bloodlines years ago. But, just because a bunch on the internet tell me she is not a Fila i will not suddenly stop calling her a fila. That is what she was until the day she died. May not of had the look some are wanting but she damn sure had the Fila temperament and stability.I come on these forums not to be judged and corrected and to have those try to shov thir opinion down my throat. i come for my pure and honest love for the breed. I am not a breeder, never stated i am. Never have wanted to go that route. I am here to enjoy seeing others dogs and to enjoy the chatting with those who love this magnificent breed as I do. If you are unable to do that with me then please do not reply to my posts.

---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------

and I did forget to mention, said dog that I held the leash, I was not able to touch her and was advised by her owner to not even attempt if I valued my life. Just because a dog lets you hold its leash as you stand stock still and are not afraid does not mean it is not a true fila. If I remember correctly, this man had Cafib dogs. I was showing Dogos back then.

fila4me · Mar 30, 2012

and I did forget to mention, said dog that I held the leash, I was not able to touch her and was advised by her owner to not even attempt if I valued my life. Just because a dog lets you hold its leash as you stand stock still and are not afraid does not mean it is not a true fila. If I remember correctly, this man had Cafib dogs. I was showing Dogos back then.

dogman#1 · Mar 31, 2012

Umm fila..who exactly "attacked" you? Im sorry you feel that you were attacked in some way but I am unsure why you would feel that way. About the "Friendly stranger" bit...In CAFIB we dont have that...That is an FCI stipulation not CAFIB's. Try to calm down, o.k? this thread has been REALLY civil thus far and noone has used profanity until now. It has been educational with both sides containing themselves properly.

Dogue · Mar 31, 2012

Fila4me, i'm curious to know more about the temperament test you performed. So during the test, someone else holds your dog while an agitator "agitates?" Also, you said that you were the one "agitating" in one of those pics. Was that your dog? Forgive me if I'm mistaked about the last part. I might have misinterpreted what you said incorrectly. Thanks!

Ghostsword · Mar 31, 2012

Great discussion.

Being Portuguese and knowing the history of Brasil, I have to still question that with the influx of workers into a farm, be it cattle or crops, the dogs need to be able to adapt to new people, not mauled them.

Work on most large brasilian farms are seasonal and people would come an go.

Also I am sure that the dogs are tested before the official tests. The instinct is there but would the handler actually risk the dog fail the test? I wouldn't.

I like fila for what they have to offer, the instinct to protect, and as I said before: if the parents are cafib there is a bigger chance that a large percentage of the pups will have the temperament I want. Yes, I will train my dogs, need to have them controllable, it is important, otherwise they will just be a liability.

Some people like to say that their dogs are so hard that even they cannot control them, that is not cool, that is silly and dangerous.

___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword

GavTheMighty · Mar 31, 2012

Sorry to hijack the this thread but can any of you that has any experience of Dogo's tell me if these look pure?.........................

[video=youtube;zlfro3VbL8M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfro3VbL8M&context=C4cdff15ADvjVQa1PpcFMupyKk7zpaRn1KnIoecYeY k_nT3Tfh43Y[/video]=

chuckorlando · Mar 31, 2012

I got a budda that has a coffe and cattle farm in costa rica. Most workers have been there for years. Live on the farm. But every year there are new folks. Every few days people are there to visit. To buy and view cattle, to sale and deliever cattle, to pick, sort, and load coffee. Then of coarse you have the family that lives in the city who logicly use the farm as a retreat. Even in a rare case where there is no turn around or outside folks, on many farms you could be talking 25- over a 100 workers. I would be inclined to believe they are not just aggressive.

Even here Mr Peltier first met a Fila in the open. Scared yes, but not eaten. Even allowed in the househttp://filabrasileirochicopeltier.com.br/1-eng2.html

And not to long to being excepted

Ghostsword · Mar 31, 2012

Yes, that is what normal farms are like. What would the old people do with a dog that couldn't behave on a farm environment? They would kill it or get rid of it, they were working dogs.

I like what the cafib is doing, selecting for harder temperament and solid nerves, they are on the right path. But that does not mean that others are on the wrong path. Just different ways, and that is it.

Like there are two types of gsd's, two types of pit bulls, neos, and many other breeds. Even the Cocker Spaniel has many varieties.

I want a cafib line pup, but I do not look down at all other lines. Only reason for cafib is the chance of getting a pup with the requirements I need.

but I like neos, great protection instincts also so why look down on such a mix?

___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword

fila4me · Mar 31, 2012

Dogue said:
Fila4me, i'm curious to know more about the temperament test you performed. So during the test, someone else holds your dog while an agitator "agitates?" Also, you said that you were the one "agitating" in one of those pics. Was that your dog? Forgive me if I'm mistaked about the last part. I might have misinterpreted what you said incorrectly. Thanks!

It is a TT that has been performed on Filas for always. And sorry. it looks as if I wasn't as clear in writing as I was in my mind, sorry that happens sometimes. In the TT's the owner handles the dog, they go thru a trial of exercises and at the end meet the bad guy, th agitator. You are correct, that was me with my black girl. When the "frindly stranger" part happens it is another way to show rthe soundness of the dog. The dog should not over react to the strangers that are acting like someone you may pass on the street in everyday life.

@dogman, I do not feel attacked, way thicker skin than that! LOL!! I am a NY'r and a Pit Bull owner, so some people on the internet are not a problem. I just get tired of same crap on every site that the Fila is mentioned. And, even with my statement, I was very civil, when I a not there is a big difference. But, I see no reason to not be civil. And, thanks for the reprimand on my language, but that is the way I chose to express myself sometimes and I could have been a lot worse. And, if you ever meet me in person i openly admit I speak like a sailor! And, with Cafib, I forgot, those dogs are attacked by grown men with chairs. Also, calm as can be over here!!!After all my meds from chemo effects I am very chill!LOL!!

---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------

@gavthemighty, I love this video! Yep, they are pure. Dogos can be excellent protection dogs. As big of babies mine were, let someone get just a little to close and acting odd. My boys Paco, Pappy or Hunter would be on them in 2 secs.

fila4me · Mar 31, 2012

@gavthemighty, I love this video! Yep, they are pure. Dogos can be excellent protection dogs. As big of babies mine were, let someone get just a little to close and acting odd. My boys Paco, Pappy or Hunter would be on them in 2 secs.

OdeMX · Mar 31, 2012

fila4me said:
thank you, yes she was. She was about 130 in that pic, she was more masculine compared to the other filas I have had.
she was my heart dog!

Wow, so the Dogo was bigger than the Fila!

You have any Dogo with natural (not sure about the word... Uncut?) ears?

fila4me · Mar 31, 2012

OdeMX said:
Wow, so the Dogo was bigger than the Fila!

You have any Dogo with natural (not sure about the word... Uncut?) ears?

he was, my other males were between 110-125lbs.
no, I haven't had any with natural ears, but the next one I get will have natural ears.

dogman#1 · Mar 31, 2012

I wish sometimes that these were tele-conferences instead of typed words...very hard to read reactions and emotions on here..Fila 4me, doesnt the friendly stranger actually shake your hand or does he just walk by 10' away? if he just walks by then I am sure that any fila in the world can pass that even an under socialized one. Now the other question I asked of you...has FCI ever had a championship here in the USA? From what I understand FCI's club in the USA is FCPR (that's in Puerto Rico) and I havent heard of an actual FCI show in the states before. If there shows arent in the states then where did you get your official FCI temperament test done? You also said that you wouldnt want an official CAFIB test done because "I could give a rats ass for a cafib official eval on my filas. They go into temp. testing green and the temp. test is the only time agitation is done. I do not belive that a person who has only met my dog once and then evaluates it can tell me if my dog is correct or not.".........I dont get this. you dont believe that a person that ONLY judges Filas and no other breed and accurately evaluate your dog after one time? seriously? how many times would he have to temp test and see your dog before you think he has an accurate depiction of your dog? Remember the reason for the temperament test is just to see the natural temperament of the dog...countless hours of preparation with bite work and so on only masks the natural aspect of it and it is considered cheating...picture it like this, we are all tasked to run a "confidence/obstacle" course and none of us ever seen or run the course...as an evaluator you could see how we all react to the new stress and how we deal with it, now imagine if there was one person who had run that course 3 Xs a week for a year....would you be evaluating his ability to deal with stress and confidence or will you be viewing training? It is VERY important to eval a dog while green otherwise it is worthless.

Ghost, you were an MP w/ k9...why do they tend to use pure bred dogs? It is because they tend to have the exact temperament , size and abilities straight across the board. the reason why band dogs or other designer breeds hardly make the cut is because they are so inconsistent in everything and usually take away and rarely add to the end result. so why shouldnt we mix filas w/neos...cause you end up with a lesser dog then you started up with. it is possible to get a great example out of it but once the f2s, f3s, f4s (generations) start to go by you will see all the weaknesses and inconsitencies that come with that initial "hybrid vigor", which is why you see many non CAFIB breeders in Brazil reintroducing CAFIB Filas into their program...it just goes away after some time with all that other stuff in the soup.

About those Dogos..they look pretty good to me but I am not that into dogos and therefore cant answer if they are "pure" or not.

Now with the Filas in the farms and just like the Filas in my house...if they see different people all day long since they were pups they can come to tolerate that to a point, they are dogs after all not machines. When we talk about training we are not talking about obediance...every dog needs obediance training and the level that you take it to is up to you. when we talk about training we mean attack training, CAFIB doesnt like it due to the fact that it is difficult to see the dog's true temp through the trained aspect. There seems to be some confusion as to what proper temp is in regards to Filas on here... a socialized fila knows the difference between good guy and bad guy but that doesnt mean that it lets the good guy touch you or it...understand?

Ghostsword · Mar 31, 2012

dogman#1 said:
Ghost, you were an MP w/ k9...why do they tend to use pure bred dogs? It is because they tend to have the exact temperament , size and abilities straight across the board. the reason why band dogs or other designer breeds hardly make the cut is because they are so inconsistent in everything and usually take away and rarely add to the end result. so why shouldnt we mix filas w/neos...cause you end up with a lesser dog then you started up with. it is possible to get a great example out of it but once the f2s, f3s, f4s (generations) start to go by you will see all the weaknesses and inconsitencies that come with that initial "hybrid vigor", which is why you see many non CAFIB breeders in Brazil reintroducing CAFIB Filas into their program...it just goes away after some time with all that other stuff in the soup.

We only get purebred dogs for that reason, but we also do temperament tests on the dogs before we buy them. Sleeve and response to a shot fired. Anything that does not do well is not purchased. We buy the dogs when they are about 18 months.

see it like a cafib but just with the temperament part.

And this is why for me I just consider cafib. I will get a pup, and there is a bigger chance that the pups will be with the temperament I want. On a litter maybe two or three are not good enough for cafib, right?

What I mean is that I do not look down on the dogs that have some mix on them.

___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword

chuckorlando · Mar 31, 2012

I dont think anyones confused about proper temp. It's been covered over and over again. Might be a problem with expressing or comprehending but I think everyone gets it. You basicly just described exactly what each one of us has been saying about tolerating strangers. Maybe someone said something about touching, but I dont recall anyone saying it was fine to be touched. But if you cant make your dog sit while you shake someones hand, you aint got control of the dog. Kona wont let me get that close to people untill she calms a bit, but I'm working on that

dogman#1 · Mar 31, 2012

Ghost...not interely true...you can can easily have a full litter of pups be approved by CAFIB, happens all the time. It also depends on why one would not be passed...if it is disqualified due to temperament or or because a cumulation of other faults it is one thing but if it is disqualified because of mixed breeding faults then that is a completly diff. thing and the whole breeding is crapped.

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

Chuck, it is actually in the CAFIB standard:

2. Temperament
It is a courageous, determined and daring dog.
It does not hide its aversion to strangers, or its traditional tenderness to its
owners and family. Consequently, it is an unsurpassed watch dog in the cities,
and an excellent herding dog and a hunter of big animals on farms. As a result
of its temperament, at dog shows it does not allow the judge(a stranger) to
touch it. And if it attacks the judge, such a reaction must not be considered a
fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament. At temperament tests,
obligatory for dogs over one year old at shows, the Fila attack must be in an
ascending diagonal, in front of handler and without showing dependence from him.

Fila Brasileiro

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