Culling... yay or nay

[raechiemay]

I cannot stand the thought of the gas box. Saw it on the hbo documentary about rescue dogs & I was so horrified that I just sobbed. Never in my life did I ever want to see something so awful. At what point can a litter not be aborted? The guy I got my little dog from said his dachshund was accidentally impregnated by his male yorkie. He knew they were not purebred & if it wasn't for his drug addicted wife at the time they would've never tied. The guy was very good about keeping them separated during heat cycles. Anyway he called me one day asking about getting her spayed & aborting the litter. I asked how far along she was & with myself not knowing much about dog gestational periods, he told me she was due in a few days, week max. I told him unfortunately he had waited to long & to just let her have the pups & give them away. I told him that for the reason that I assumed it was too late to spay/abort. Plus dachshund/yorkie mixes, I wouldn't consider that to be dangerous like a fila mix or similar...but again, what did I know at the time. With it being almost 7 years later I am so glad I told him to not go through with the spay. Daisy is seriously the best dog I have ever had.

 

[northernmastiff]

I cannot stand the thought of the gas box. Saw it on the hbo documentary about rescue dogs & I was so horrified that I just sobbed. Never in my life did I ever want to see something so awful. At what point can a litter not be aborted? The guy I got my little dog from said his dachshund was accidentally impregnated by his male yorkie. He knew they were not purebred & if it wasn't for his drug addicted wife at the time they would've never tied. The guy was very good about keeping them separated during heat cycles. Anyway he called me one day asking about getting her spayed & aborting the litter. I asked how far along she was & with myself not knowing much about dog gestational periods, he told me she was due in a few days, week max. I told him unfortunately he had waited to long & to just let her have the pups & give them away. I told him that for the reason that I assumed it was too late to spay/abort. Plus dachshund/yorkie mixes, I wouldn't consider that to be dangerous like a fila mix or similar...but again, what did I know at the time. With it being almost 7 years later I am so glad I told him to not go through with the spay. Daisy is seriously the best dog I have ever had.

I am not sure. I think a few days before delivery is too late personally but if you catch the tie or see signs that yes, the dog is pregnant in that first month, I think an abortion is safe. There are people who will do an abortion without a spay, such as a breeder who had a fence jumper while her prized bitch is in heat. It happens and it seems like the ugliest mongrel always has a will to find the way. I have had mixed breeds and purebreeds and some of my best dogs were mixed breeds. It isn't so much a mixed or purebred thing, just a dog overpopulation thing.

 

[Bentley]

I think that concepts such as culling are very dangerous (as in killing, not spaying), they can lead to less responsible/ moral individuals using undesirable traits as an excuse to kill an inconveinient dog. I would agree that any animal that is going to suffer all its life should be put out of its misery, but otherwise if people breed colours or shapes that are undesirable, tough luck you caused it to be brought into the world, you have a duty to look after it well or find it a happy home. If you do not wish traits to be passed on for cosmetic reasons then pay to have the animal spayed.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Where I grew up (Ohio) culling was common practice for all of the wrong reasons. It is a horrid sight to see and will make you really think about animals and thier treatment. I do not believe in culling at all. To me, culling is done when a litter is born. If something happens to make a dog need to be put down later (Health, agression) that isn't culling, IMO. Culling is done immediately just like the fisherman "cull" thier catch. The pull the fish in, check size and such and throw the undesirables back. Other than the rare occasion that a newborn pup is born with major deformities (that offer no chance of any quality of life), I see no reason to "cull" them. It is (Again in my opinion) just cruel to kill puppies because they don't fit what you were going for. I think a breeder should except the responsibility for the litter and anyone with a brain knows that out of a litter of pups, there will be those that do not posess the traits that you were hoping for....So make them a pet. Euthanizing a dog for the right reasons (health with no quality of life, aggressive that can not be trained away) as a rule cannot be seen immediately. So, I guess after all of that I am saying NO, I do not believe in culling.

 

[bellareea320]

I believe it should be the choice of the breeder, and should not be judged. A good breeder that has had many litters will know if a puppy is born with health defects that cannot be fixed, the quality of life for that puppy will not be a good one. Its their desicion to do whats necessary to their program and litter. From everything i have learned on this forum, a good breeder, breeds for the benefit of the breed, to further along health and hips and so forth. I am sure that anyone that has a litter hopes they never have to make this decision, but it happens. In certain situations I would simply ask myself if there were no vets or human intervention would this puppy survive on its own with the health issues? Later on in puppyhood I feel its a case by case situation. If a dog has a nervous disorder or gets uncontrollable seisures and is unpredictable after coming out of them would it be fair to keep this dog alive. If a dog has such bad HD and cant walk is it fair to keep them alive in pain? So it depends on the situation, but should always be an option for the benefit of the pup or dog and breed.

 

[ruthcatrin]

What about culling of irresponsible pet owners/breeders? too bad thats illegal..

Tempting though occasionally.


Culling, sigh, I have back and forth issues with it.

In most cases I won't agree with aborting a "whoops" litter, I believe that every animal has a right to a chance at a good home. If the bitch's life or health is at stake thats different.

Putting down of pups after birth: if the pup has a physical defect that will result in a slow painfull death, or a painfilled miserable life then put him down for his own sake. I don't agree with putting down a pup just because its the wrong color, or has another defect that won't affect quality of life. Find a pet home for the dog (or talk to a rescue about finding one).

Culling in the form of spay/neuter: absolutely. And even if it means that you insist on doing so at an early age to ensure that the pup won't ever be bred, then spay/neuter to your hearts content.

All of the above in reference to Fila's or other breeds with severe human aggression bred in: it becomes a bit more complicated. I don't think I'd ever have a problem with spay/neuter and would be more than willing to accept it at an early age if so required. For aborting a litter, or killing of pups.....I think I'd want a heck of alot more information before agreeing, but I'm not going to outright refuse to accept either....

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I think it depends entirely on the situation and what the quality of life would be for the puppy. I don't judge people that do it as it isn't an easy decision for most of them and I can see their reasoning. There is a huge discussion about this going on involving some corsi kennels at the moment, a puppy was born with a cleft palate (not a huge issue, some surgeries and it is fixed and can be a great pet and that is what was done), surgeries were done to repair and as the dog is still with the breeder they start to notice some mobility issues. The dog was taken in and xrays performed and several other test and it was determined that this puppy also had neurologic issues (potentially linked to its developmental issues like the cleft palate). It was determined the puppy was in no pain from the deteriation of its mobility, it just didn't look pretty. So they offered up this dog for free to any home that understood the issues associated with it, well now this breeder is being torn to shreds because the dog's mobility has continued to get worse, it looks like the back end was turned around and put on in the wrong direction and this dogs back is so roached that there is probably less than 12 inches between the front and back legs. Now the breeder didn't know that the dog would continue to get worse like this and she didn't know that when she saved the cleft palate puppy that it would have these issues that most when seeing the dog would say it should have been put done humanely at birth.

So in the end it is a personal decision, I don't judge those that do it for a valid reason (and colour unless it causes a serious health problem like the merle gene or overo gene in horses is not a valid reason) but I think if the dog can still live a good quality of life then it is a spay/neuter and it becomes a pet.

Mary well said.

 

[Tiger12490]

I whole heartedly believe in culling and no I don't believw sterilization is the same....if I had a litter of fila sure all of those pups could have homes but if I didn't like the cut of some of there jiff there gone...I wouldn't want anyone to get any of my crap and then my name be attached to said crap..and then still these dogs aren't pet dogs....now color and such is ridiculous and those people shouldn't be aloud to breed let alone there dogs but in order to perfect the breed sometimes you have to take out the weak links... I think this one really gets people that have a "heart" to think the Spartans would cull there children!!

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[Rugers-Kris]

What do you mean "and then still these dogs aren't pet dogs"?

I whole heartedly believe in culling and no I don't believw sterilization is the same....if I had a litter of fila sure all of those pups could have homes but if I didn't like the cut of some of there jiff there gone...I wouldn't want anyone to get any of my crap and then my name be attached to said crap..and then still these dogs aren't pet dogs....now color and such is ridiculous and those people shouldn't be aloud to breed let alone there dogs but in order to perfect the breed sometimes you have to take out the weak links... I think this one really gets people that have a "heart" to think the Spartans would cull there children!!

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[raechiemay]

Did I hear correctly that boxer breeders used to cull all white pups?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Did I hear correctly that boxer breeders used to cull all white pups?

It wouldn't surprise me. All white is or was a defect in alot of breeds, which doesn't mean that it doesn't occasionally crop up. Like black and tan in Labs.

 

[northernmastiff]

It wouldn't surprise me. All white is or was a defect in alot of breeds, which doesn't mean that it doesn't occasionally crop up. Like black and tan in Labs.

Yes, they used to cull them because many times they were deaf. Dudleys (black, tan and white) are often culled in Bulldogs, the Pied are culled in Mastiffs and on and on. I don't agree with culling for appearance. I think it is funny that they cull black labs that have white on the paws and the muzzle. If you look at the original Lab, which was actually the St. John's Water Dog, the normal coloring for the breed had white. At one time, you could only have a black lab. Chocolate and yellow were culled, then they decided to accept chocolate so only yellow was culled and finally they accepted yellow. Still, if you talk to avid hunting breeders, they will say that yellow labs are useless in the field. Want a good hunting lab, choose black or chocolate. Weird people abound.

Here is a picture of the St. John's Water Dog. I think it is neat but an elderly black lab goes gray in the same patterns as the St. John's Water Dog white.


Elderly Black Lab on the second one, you can see that even the paws go white.

 

[cwayaustx]

I don't own nor have I ever owned a fila. I do think however if I did and "accidentally" had a litter of pups from parents of unknown temperments that werent health tested nor temperment tested or especially if one of the parents didnt show correct temperment I would definately have to consider, abortion first or culling after birth second, if I could not find a home without children and someone with extensive experience with the breed both willing to take such a risk and willing to spay/nueter such pups. Logical reasoning being; pup goes to family with children and does not have correct temperment this could be a deadly combination for anyone in the home, dog does bite someone this could be devastating for the breed and mastiffs in general, in general betterment of the breed. That being said, I would not be a good person for allowing said breeding to take place to begin with. Culling for cosmetics alone is in my opinion unacceptable, give the dog to a good pet home with a spay nueter contract..

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 AM ----------

That would not only go for filas I guess, in general any harder guardian breed...

 

[cwayaustx]

That would not only go for filas I guess, in general any harder guardian breed...

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

Example, I have an "accidental" litter of fila pups from a young unproven male from an unkown background. Chuck and dogman and mountainfila want one and are willing to take risk and understand completely the circumstances. I would give them the pup for free, now I have two pups left. I would put the pups down before I give them to someone that wasnt experienced/qualified in my opinion to handle such risk for not only the families sake but the sake of the breed itself. But that that still wouldn't make me a "good " person for letting the dogs breed to begin with

 

[cwayaustx]

Example, I have an "accidental" litter of fila pups from a young unproven male from an unkown background. Chuck and dogman and mountainfila want one and are willing to take risk and understand completely the circumstances. I would give them the pup for free, now I have two pups left. I would put the pups down before I give them to someone that wasnt experienced/qualified in my opinion to handle such risk for not only the families sake but the sake of the breed itself. But that that still wouldn't make me a "good " person for letting the dogs breed to begin with

 

[Cody]

As stated above I would leave that up to the breeder, without judgement.
Wait, I would not judge an ethical breeder with extensive time in the breed and knowledge of their lines
I have heard of pups being culled in my breed, with neurological and physical issues apparent from birth.
The debate on another forum is interesting, there are 2 sides to every story. The family which this dog was given to as a service dog has had multiple issues including the dog being in severe pain (according to the owners, screaming in pain and falling frequently) and biting the child it was placed as a service dog for. Did the breeder do the right thing by placing the dog... Maybe maybe not. I do not think that it was the best dog for a service dog placement, but that is just my opinion. If I were to require a service dog I would look for health as a priority.
A cleft palette which requires multiple surgeries for and has to be hand fed, if I was a breeder would probably be culled.
In many many situations the CP is not the only issue for that dog. Again is not my place to judge.
I believe it has to be the choice of the breeder.

 

[cwayaustx]

As stated above I would leave that up to the breeder, without judgement.
Wait, I would not judge an ethical breeder with extensive time in the breed and knowledge of their lines
I have heard of pups being culled in my breed, with neurological and physical issues apparent from birth.
The debate on another forum is interesting, there are 2 sides to every story. The family which this dog was given to as a service dog has had multiple issues including the dog being in severe pain (according to the owners, screaming in pain and falling frequently) and biting the child it was placed as a service dog for. Did the breeder do the right thing by placing the dog... Maybe maybe not. I do not think that it was the best dog for a service dog placement, but that is just my opinion. If I were to require a service dog I would look for health as a priority.
A cleft palette which requires multiple surgeries for and has to be hand fed, if I was a breeder would probably be culled.
In many many situations the CP is not the only issue for that dog. Again is not my place to judge.
I believe it has to be the choice of the breeder.

key word and i agree...

 

[Tiger12490]

Example, I have an "accidental" litter of fila pups from a young unproven male from an unkown background. Chuck and dogman and mountainfila want one and are willing to take risk and understand completely the circumstances. I would give them the pup for free, now I have two pups left. I would put the pups down before I give them to someone that wasnt experienced/qualified in my opinion to handle such risk for not only the families sake but the sake of the breed itself. But that that still wouldn't make me a "good " person for letting the dogs breed to begin with

That's what I mean... and even sometimes with ethical breeding with plan dogs you sometimes don't get what you want....the serious dogs out there such as Fila and the rest of the ancient guys aren't meant for the "normal" owner...I think we can all say it takes a little something else to own some of the breeds we own....I would not be willing to place a pup into the hands of Joe schmo period and would not be willing to sell these pups to people worthy of owning them..and I would not have chain space for dogs that were not what I wanted.... so unless some of you guys wanted some pups they'd have to be euthanized.

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[Cody]

That's what I mean... and even sometimes with ethical breeding with plan dogs you sometimes don't get what you want....the serious dogs out there such as Fila and the rest of the ancient guys aren't meant for the "normal" owner...I think we can all say it takes a little something else to own some of the breeds we own....I would not be willing to place a pup into the hands of Joe schmo period and would not be willing to sell these pups to people worthy of owning them..and I would not have chain space for dogs that were not what I wanted.... so unless some of you guys wanted some pups they'd have to be euthanized.

Tapd on my skyrocket

And that sums up the reason I do not want to be a breeder.
It isn't that I couldn't find homes for pups, is that I do not trust the majority of ppl with my dogs or this breed.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

That's what I mean... and even sometimes with ethical breeding with plan dogs you sometimes don't get what you want....the serious dogs out there such as Fila and the rest of the ancient guys aren't meant for the "normal" owner...I think we can all say it takes a little something else to own some of the breeds we own....I would not be willing to place a pup into the hands of Joe schmo period and would not be willing to sell these pups to people worthy of owning them..and I would not have chain space for dogs that were not what I wanted.... so unless some of you guys wanted some pups they'd have to be euthanized.

Tapd on my skyrocket

Quote for truth.......