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Culling... yay or nay

cwayaustx

Banned
And yes, I might be lucky enough to find suitable homes for two out of...say twelve pups(stir,stir). What to do with the remaining ten?
 

masteneo

Well-Known Member
ok gang so i am back. so where was i? Dad felt it was the grown up thing to do by teaching us boys that when a dog was messed up in some bad fashion it was time to put them down Like i said before, it really made me think long and hard about what kept causing dogs to be put down and is it neseccary to put them down every time. When you have to put your beloved pet down at your own hands, it just tears up all the old paradigms you have. You have to rebuild your thinking at that point. So... to the easiest ones. 1. a litter has a pup that is deformed but can live a resonable confortable life. have the pup fixed as soon as possible. do not let this animal out of your care til you do. some idiot will breed it. 2. a dog is unusually visious, to the point training cant fix it for all the attempts and help you have sought. this one i leave to each and everyone of you individually, as i have had to put one male pit down for this. I expect each of has a very different opinion on this on. 3. a puppy is born not to standard, my gut feeling is hold on to this dog til its ready to be fixed, have it fixed then sell at a reduced rate. its part of the risk of breeding. and dang if it dont suck. 4. a pup is born with a deffect(ie, cleft pallet in its more extereme cases) The tough desision is call the vet if one is avaliable and have the pup put down. The next question is what to do once you find out momma doggy or daddy doggy are throwing these pups because of genetics...
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
Well a byb should'nt be breeding filas and filas should not be on CL period. Good or bad temp dont matter. If your a good breeder, following Tigers post, you would likely cull them if you did'nt have willing experianced homes.

But like any other breed out there, I'd bet money there are way more litters breed with no test or even consideration for the breed, then litters being tested. I aint heard of the roaming packs of ill tempered filas killing their owners. I have heard of it, but in perspective, thats the exception not the rule.
 

cwayaustx

Banned
Well, the obvious answer is that you should be culled for breeding them. Duh. :p

Filas are the extreme so yes, I could see culling the litter in that instance but I would have it aborted as soon as I knew that a breeding took place. If it is aborted, then there is really no debate on culling.

LOL I think on the first page of this thread I mentioned culling pet owners.. and yes abortion would be the best bet but now I got pups on the ground..
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
And that can be said about any harder line. Be it a cc, bm, neo, em, or what have you. If your genetic lines are harder dogs you need homes for them before you breed them.

Does any of that matter to the byb? No. If it did they would'nt have the litter to begin with
 

cwayaustx

Banned
Well a byb should'nt be breeding filas and filas should not be on CL period. Good or bad temp dont matter. If your a good breeder, following Tigers post, you would likely cull them if you did'nt have willing experianced homes.

But like any other breed out there, I'd bet money there are way more litters breed with no test or even consideration for the breed, then litters being tested. I aint heard of the roaming packs of ill tempered filas killing their owners. I have heard of it, but in perspective, thats the exception not the rule.

I agree about BYBs breeding and CL completely but we both know this isn't a perfect world. I have never heard of a pack of filas mauling anyone. It only takes one Fila and with the popularity on the rise and anyone with two dogs thinking they are a breeder it is only a matter of time before the nine oclock news tells us some kid has their face ripped off by a family pet Brazilian Mastiff. I know I'm preaching a moot point but IT'S NOT TO LATE TO DO WHATS BEST FOR THE BREED AND THE SAFETY OF ANYONE I would sell these dogs to..

---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

I agree but you should have said PROPER homes...
If they dont have homes they need put down or sent to a rescue.
 

diverdan169

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree that homes should be arranged before any breeding takes place. However, I do not like the fact that there is a rat pack mentality here regarding the Fila pup' s thread that was locked out. Someone is accused of being a BYB and the moral police come out of the wood work. Chuck you do not agree that a CC with "Severe Human Agression" should be put down but you do a puppy because it is a Fila. How different is your view from mine? You advocate euthanasia for a puppy or it being sent to rescue which unfortunately means most often death--but criticize me (as others here did) that a a 3 year old CC that has severe aggrression problems should be put down! This simply ignores breed standards and I believe safety. Why would anyone wany this liability? Because you brought the dog into this world? Hell no! Culling has its place at any age! As you seem to indicate. I also disagree with the ghost threads going on here that are nothing more then smoke screens to get aroung a locked thread. We can disagree but ganging up, insulting is not the way to go about having an inteligent debate.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
A little pot stirring here... What about culling a brood of Fila pups from untested temp/health parents of unknown background vs selling to inexperienced pet owners wanting the latest bada$$ dog, or even someone that might be okay with a proper temp fila but not enough knowledge to know the importance of proper temperments? (as I think this was one of the original reasons for this thread) Should an entire breed risk BSL and someone's child's face or life be risked for the life's of a couple of puppies? Of course ideally this situation should never happen but we all know this is the real world...And yes I might not be a good person for letting the dogs breed to begin with but would it make me a worse person to put the dogs down for the bigger picture? Or should I just sell them to my friends, family and on CL to anyone with cash because anyone who knows Filas and is experienced enough and knowledgeable enough to deserve such a breed would most likely not risk having said dogs around their family and certainly would not pay Fila money for them.

fire away...

I looked for, but couldn't find (or didn't recognise)the original thread which prompted this discussion. I am assuming this is a hypothetical scenario, and that you don't actually have 12 Fila pups from unknown parentage on your hands. So here are my further thoughts:

Firstly, I think the larger picture is back to the dilemma of BYBs -- and personally, I am very concerned about the increasing numbers of Fila puppies and Fila crosses appearing on CL, the latter of which in my mind are more likely to be ticking time bombs, and genetic loose cannons. I am generally quite opposed to any cross-breeding, especially with the 'harder' breeds, unless there is a specific purpose and job the cross was created for that couldn't be fulfilled by existing breeds. My perception is that if you are a BYB of these dogs you probably could care less about the future of the breed, dangers to society, and are probably more than happy to sell puppies to whomever has the money -- regardless of the buyer's intent and breed knowledge. Do you imagine for a second that anyone is ever going to convince 'you'/such such people to cull a litter of puppies? I don't think you would see an ethical dilemma at all.

Such BYBs did get their dogs from somewhere. Hence this is where 'responsible' breeders come into the picture. So now lets look at a responsible breeder with Filas. How would a responsible breeder arrive in a situation where s/he owned and allowed to mate Filas from unknown background and no temperament testing? I do think that dogs such as Filas should not be bred without pre-approved homes for the puppies. And I believe it falls on the breeders' shoulders to educate their customers, and direct them to other resources (CAFIB, breed clubs) for information. Additionally, if I bred Filas, I would have a very strict, iron clad contract that specified the conditions I required for a proper, safe and secure environment for the puppies. I would stay in touch with all of my puppy owners for the life of the dog. I would also say that, given many of the experiences of Newbies on our forum, an inexperienced Fila owner is not necessarily a recipe for disastet.

So bottom line, I can't quite visualise your scenario playing out with only the two options you describe, and I wouldn't cull the litter. I would hold the puppies longer, get the parents temperament tested, and reach out to other breeders and resources to find suitable placement. Failing that, I would look for a rescue experienced with Filas. You are making an unwarranted assumption that because the parents are of unknown backgrounds (in your hypothetical example), the puppies are faited to bite or kill children and suject the entire breed to BSL, and I don't think such puppies deserve a death sentence.
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree that homes should be arranged before any breeding takes place. However, I do not like the fact that there is a rat pack mentality here regarding the Fila pup' s thread that was locked out. Someone is accused of being a BYB and the moral police come out of the wood work. Chuck you do not agree that a CC with "Severe Human Agression" should be put down but you do a puppy because it is a Fila. How different is your view from mine? You advocate euthanasia for a puppy or it being sent to rescue which unfortunately means most often death--but criticize me (as others here did) that a a 3 year old CC that has severe aggrression problems should be put down! This simply ignores breed standards and I believe safety. Why would anyone wany this liability? Because you brought the dog into this world? Hell no! Culling has its place at any age! As you seem to indicate. I also disagree with the ghost threads going on here that are nothing more then smoke screens to get aroung a locked thread. We can disagree but ganging up, insulting is not the way to go about having an inteligent debate.

Well there's a HUGE difference . Filas ARE ALL HUMANE AGGRESSIVE. Theres no question to be had there. So with no buyers for the pups, you keep them, put them down, or find who you can that you know can raise them. Thats absolutely the same thing you would do with a hard line of any dog as I stated just above here in a post a bit ago.

The dog you speak of is already in that home..... They already have someone willing to do what ever it takes to work through the issues. And if they cant work through them, the will treat it like a fila. Because the dog is not aggressive towards it's family. Like a fila. It dont like anyone else, like a fila. So if you cant work that out, but have full confidence that your family is safe, then treat it like a fila.

I dont agree with the breeding period. If Kona had pups by mistake I would'nt put them down. I'd find what few hoes I could and buy more dog food. Because I screwed up in the first place. But when your options come down to put it on CL to who ever has cash, or put it down, you put down the fila. This aint a perfect world here. THOSE WERE THE OPTIONS. If the option was rescue, then yea, thats WAY WAY better than killing the pups. Like a fila rescue not pups for pennies rescue. A place tha will fine good owners. I would never kill any pup I screwed up and ended up with unless it was in bad shape. I would keep all 12 if I had to. I'm not a breeder though. Apples to apples.
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
Jadotha, unfortunately the scenario is real just not in the sense that cwayaustx owns the litter & the thread has since been deleted (I assume). Upon browsing CL today, besides the gorgeous GD I found, I did find a litter of Fila puppies. No where on the ad did it state "knowledge of the breed required for adoption" all it said was these will be big dogs. Well duh.
 

masteneo

Well-Known Member
And see if you already are arranging the sells before the liter is born then, you have already taken the monster big part of the problem off the table. BYB's are the dung of the earth. sorry but after having to put down dogs myself, i have really gotten a sore attitude towards these pieces of excrement. the dogs they throw out are absolute piles of mess , genetically speaking. there is a place and time that culling has to happen. and if you really care for the condition of the suffering animal , then you would put them down , as an act of kindness. But to know the animals you throw out are messed up and you still keep breeding them. :mad:
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
My point was that cwayaustx did not personally breed a litter of Fila puppies from unknown origins, and no responsible breeder would do this. BYBs will, and do, but they are not going to be stopped by any ethical considerations or even contemplate putting a litter down.
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
My point was that cwayaustx did not personally breed a litter of Fila puppies from unknown origins, and no responsible breeder would do this. BYBs will, and do, but they are not going to be stopped by any ethical considerations or even contemplate putting a litter down.

No, I would hope he would not be that ignorant. Otherwise, I live in the same state, I'd have to find a stick, drive down & whack him upside the head with it! :p
 

cwayaustx

Banned
There is nor was no ratpack mentality only people concerned about the seriousness of someone who knew nothing about a fila just a few short months ago coming on here a excited that they had 12 FILA puppies. Now i will admit that comments i made maybe I shouldnt have but i stand by my statement. I refuse to pretend like everything is all hunkyfreakingdory when its not. ITS PEOPLE LIKE THIS WITH NO REGARD FOR MASTIFFS WHICH I LOVE THAT ARE GOING TO CAUSE US TO NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE THEM. This is a serious threat to all mastiffs not just filas, my daughters best friend and guardian when I am overseas working is a mastiff and I take this as a threat to my family because my dog is my family and protects my family (even if it is only with size and his bark right now) so yea I have every right to be pissed and maybe even what sensitive folk would consider rude. Now maybe I cant be pissed on this forum if thats the case then I can respect that and so be it..
I absolutely agree that homes should be arranged before any breeding takes place. However, I do not like the fact that there is a rat pack mentality here regarding the Fila pup' s thread that was locked out. Someone is accused of being a BYB and the moral police come out of the wood work. Chuck you do not agree that a CC with "Severe Human Agression" should be put down but you do a puppy because it is a Fila. How different is your view from mine? You advocate euthanasia for a puppy or it being sent to rescue which unfortunately means most often death--but criticize me (as others here did) that a a 3 year old CC that has severe aggrression problems should be put down! This simply ignores breed standards and I believe safety. Why would anyone wany this liability? Because you brought the dog into this world? Hell no! Culling has its place at any age! As you seem to indicate. I also disagree with the ghost threads going on here that are nothing more then smoke screens to get aroung a locked thread. We can disagree but ganging up, insulting is not the way to go about having an inteligent debate.


---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

My point was that cwayaustx did not personally breed a litter of Fila puppies from unknown origins, and no responsible breeder would do this. BYBs will, and do, but they are not going to be stopped by any ethical considerations or even contemplate putting a litter down.
Youre correct i did not. And youre correct it is a moot point because if the person whom I would not even consider a byb because most bybs at least have knowledge about the breed cared at all about doing the right thing we would not be discussing this.
 

cwayaustx

Banned
My point was that cwayaustx did not personally breed a litter of Fila puppies from unknown origins, and no responsible breeder would do this. BYBs will, and do, but they are not going to be stopped by any ethical considerations or even contemplate putting a litter down.
Youre correct i did not. And youre correct it is a moot point because if the person whom I would not even consider a byb because most bybs at least have knowledge about the breed cared at all about doing the right thing we would not be discussing this.

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 PM ----------

No, I would hope he would not be that ignorant. Otherwise, I live in the same state, I'd have to find a stick, drive down & whack him upside the head with it! :p

Or you could bring a shovel and help me pick up all these pups poo:))))