Culling... yay or nay

[Tiger12490]

And that sums up the reason I do not want to be a breeder.
It isn't that I couldn't find homes for pups, is that I do not trust the majority of ppl with my dogs or this breed.

Me too

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[joshuagough]

It's the same comparison no matter what the cause is, there's a relation. Once a dog has a issue, be it from it's up bringing or natural temperament.. you are left to find a solution, IMO the first option on the table shouldn't be put the dog down.

Your belief is that isn't not correctable (at least from what I gather).

My belief is we owe the dog a chance at life, given it can physically make it without health problems. The dog might never be fit for every dog owner, but that's not to say it can't live a happy life with "some" owner who has a heart for a dog that's not up to "someone elses specs".

Chuck has said he like's having a dog that's not your "norm" for temperament I believe, I'm of the same opinion.

Joshua... read my post again. you are comparing apples to oranges. I am not talking about a dog, that due to its environment became a certain way. I was referring to something a dog was born with, a genetic defect if you will. Weak nerves isn't a trained behavior, unstable dogs may be made but there sure are some that are born.

 

[Tiger12490]

I'm sorry but an unstable dog does not need to be worked on at the risk of a human life it needs to be PTS...I talk to a guy who mixed old school neopolitan with alaunt....he said it was a huge mistake and the dogs "preyed" on people...they actively set out to hunt people....both of the parents were very stable working dogs the pups WERE NOT....these dogs didn't need a home they needed to be out of society and that's what ended up happening....

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I'm sorry but an unstable dog does not need to be worked on at the risk of a human life it needs to be PTS...I talk to a guy who mixed old school neopolitan with alaunt....he said it was a huge mistake and the dogs "preyed" on people...they actively set out to hunt people....both of the parents were very stable working dogs the pups WERE NOT....these dogs didn't need a home they needed to be out of society and that's what ended up happening....

Tapd on my skyrocket

Tiger off topic but what did this guy try to accomplish? There are "people hating breeds" out there.

 

[Kelly]

I dont believe in culling as a practice unless you mean spay/neuter. There was a CC breeder on the International forum who was culling (killing) pups if they had too much white. do NOT agree with that. spay/neuter, by all means, but if you're breeding, you have to be prepared for any eventuality. And if you dont like the pups you get, then neuter all of them and find them good homes, that's your responsibility.

 

[Tiger12490]

Tiger off topic but what did this guy try to accomplish? There are "people hating breeds" out there.

A personal protection dog it was a bandog for all intents and purpose....but for some reason I suppose that primativeness(?) Didn't work together.....ye there are alot of i hate everything breeds out there that's just not at all what he wanted lol...

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

A personal protection dog it was a bandog for all intents and purpose....but for some reason I suppose that primativeness(?) Didn't work together.....ye there are alot of i hate everything breeds out there that's just not at all what he wanted lol...

Tapd on my skyrocket

Didn't sound like what he created he wanted either :lol: This is not BK.

 

[chuckorlando]

I dont want a Fila that dont act like a fila. Any other breed with few exceptions, it would'nt matter to me if the dog was hard, soft, fear bites, or anything else. Long as my family is safe. Now a free "fila" pup that should have never happened, well I would'nt worry about it being harder or not. Just like a free car. It's free for a reason. But by no means can it be unstable with my family. A fear biting fila aint no harder to handle than a killer fila. Probbly easier cause you aint fighting that pull on the chain. No one should be close enough to get bitten period. Now a fear bitter to the avg joe can be very bad. How many Filas have been on here the folks walk off lead on a beach? People think their fila is so nice cause it dont act like a fila. But then out of no where it bites for no good reason. To me no fear biting dog is a issue cause you just treat it like a fila. Keep people away. But I'm not the avg owner. What Tiger is saying I think..... If he plans a litter the pups are spoken for. You cant willy nilly breed filas. Then the pups are all wrong, he cant sale them to his clients. They aint worth buying. He cant sale them on CL cause they are still Fila. So unless some folks he new could handle filas wanted them, he would have no choice but to cull them

 

[Tiger12490]

What Tiger is saying I think..... If he plans a litter the pups are spoken for. You cant willy nilly breed filas. Then the pups are all wrong, he cant sale them to his clients. They aint worth buying. He cant sale them on CL cause they are still Fila. So unless some folks he new could handle filas wanted them, he would have no choice but to cull them

The boys always get me

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[NYDDB]

I remember reading about Rhodesian Ridgeback breeders culling some their pups that were born without the "ridge"-- even though, originally, the ridge was considered a genetic defect...

Of course, that's hard to agree with; but I am sure it's done because they wouldn't be able to sell a RR without the trademark "ridge."

 

[Cody]

@ Chuck, here is my problem. You keep stating treat it like a Fila, tha is fine and well BUT a Fila should be a stable dog. A genetically fearful dog is not. A Fila likes going outside, to a skittish dog is is a torture. A dog that has to crawl around, pissing and shitting itself, terrified of everything and snapping out of fear. Is that quality of life for a dog? To me that seems a horrific way to live. But in my opinion we as humans like to feel that we are "saving" these dogs. We pat ourselves on the back for the good work we are doing, when really it is NOT in the dogs best interest.
We are selfish in our need to attempt to rehabilitate what cannot be fixed, ultimately that desire to feel good about ourselves over rides the fact that this is not natural for the dog. Hell left with a pack of othe dogs that one nutbar would be killed by the pack.
Yes you can treat that fear biting skittish dog like a well adjusted Fila, but it is NOT a well adjusted Fila. Is is not a confident, stable dog. It lives in a world of terror. IMO culling a dog is way more humane then forcing it to live in a nightmare just so we as humans can feel good about ourselves FOR "saving" it.

 

[Dogue]

Yay. But i'd like to think that breeders that cull do it ethically. I'd hate to think of some breeder drowning puppies in squirrel cages because his litter had too many fawns. Or, culling a healthy runt.

 

[dogman#1]

I have never seen a fear biter that was 100% perfect even with its own family... those dogs are unstable with everyone and everything , loud noises, quick movements, food, cage aggression, you name it...NEVER in my home and yes it would be culled as soon as the first sign was shown. I bred a pup that was sold as pet quality (ugly dog) and had to buy the dog back because the owner got into some serious medical issues and couldnt keep the dog (didnt have to BUY it back but thought it would be the right thing to do). Well now the pup was 4 mths old about 50lbs and on fire...couldnt get anywhere near the pup (no joke, lol) and my wife had to get him (he wasnt as nasty with her). I called another potential owner back (on list) and he said he was nervous about food/kid aggression because he has small children and the pup was big and pretty nasty. I shot him a video withing 1 day of having that pup back with him eating and my daughter petting him and touching his food at the same time. the guy came the next day to pick up the pup and the pup rushed him and bit him in the thigh, lol. he took the dog home and loves the ugly thing to death but if I though for a split second that dog was a fear biter or had any unstable tendencies...down it goes. I would not feed it, I dont have space for an animal like that and I wont put anyone else in the situation to do so either.

 

[masteneo]

Ok gang, i hate to do this but ....... I will let you guys in on a bit of my very hard and true country side. As a child back many years ago, my father taught all the kids that a dog that chases chickens, bites, or otherwise is dangerous injured treminally or distructive, is to be put down. dad, having taught us this had to periodically put this to practice. to be exact i can recall three times we as boys had to "cull " adult dogs. One of which was my own pup and dad made me do it. I know guys this is a REALLY REALLY harsh part of the culling topic but it does have a baring on the whole picture. Dad had a policy that culling was to be quick and as painless as possible. so he would shoot the injured dog right between the ears from behind, and again as we boys got older we were expected to do the same. dog was done. end of story. only thing is as a kid it really weighed heavy on my mind for as long as i could remember. things like " what could have been done different to prevent having to kill booboo. let me finish this topic when i get back from work . sorry guys to end in the middle

 

[chuckorlando]

@ Chuck, here is my problem. You keep stating treat it like a Fila, tha is fine and well BUT a Fila should be a stable dog. A genetically fearful dog is not. A Fila likes going outside, to a skittish dog is is a torture. A dog that has to crawl around, pissing and shitting itself, terrified of everything and snapping out of fear. Is that quality of life for a dog? To me that seems a horrific way to live. But in my opinion we as humans like to feel that we are "saving" these dogs. We pat ourselves on the back for the good work we are doing, when really it is NOT in the dogs best interest.
We are selfish in our need to attempt to rehabilitate what cannot be fixed, ultimately that desire to feel good about ourselves over rides the fact that this is not natural for the dog. Hell left with a pack of othe dogs that one nutbar would be killed by the pack.
Yes you can treat that fear biting skittish dog like a well adjusted Fila, but it is NOT a well adjusted Fila. Is is not a confident, stable dog. It lives in a world of terror. IMO culling a dog is way more humane then forcing it to live in a nightmare just so we as humans can feel good about ourselves FOR "saving" it.

Your arguing semantics. Why would I want any dog that wont go out side or is scared of sounds or any of that? A fear biting dog like I'm speaking of will sit in your face and be aok then nip your ass when you turn around. I think I made it very very clear it needs to be stable with my family. Did I not? Dont remove one aspect of what I said, then use the most extreme case, then incert it like it has anything to do with what I'm talkingg about. Clearly your on a whole diffrent page of the book.

Every dog that fear bites aint running round ike a fucking idiot shitting on it's self and scared of it's own shaddow. In fact, most aint. I've got 10 chihuahua next door that have bit me and 4 or 5 oher people on the ankles checking the mail. Always from the back. Wont even approach if your looking.... Thats a fear bite. is it not? Great dogs for the family. If they locked the dogs away from people, they would never have a problem one. If they would treat it like a fila.

When got our dane mix from the pound, oh he was scared of ever spanish dude and tried to bite my buddy, yea fear bite. We did'nt throw him away either, and he hangs out with the same dude he tried to bite now.

When I say I dont care hard or soft in other breeds, well that means I have no faith in other breeds to do their job, so if I had a bm that was a lazy mutt and would'nt even bark, ah well it is what it is.

I still say just what I said before. If it's not a danger to my family, I dont give a rats ass if it wants to bite you on the ass. MY FAMILY SAFE. Now you can take any situation you want that might make my family un safe, DONT INCLUDE THAT IN WHAT I AM SAYING. Cause I'm not saying that. You can take any situation that would make the dogs life crap DONT INCLUDE THAT IN WHAT I AM SAYING. Cause I'm not saying that either. Now take any conceivable situation where the dog would be fine, my family would be fine NOW INCLUDE THAT IN WHAT I;M SAYING, cause thats what I'm talking about.

You do realize there are more than two extremes yea? Every, or even most, mixed fila mutts are not killers. I mean hell most filas in the us are mutts according to some, and they aint killing up their owners. The dog I suggested she treat like a fila, and you jumped on me for, well that dogs doing just fine. Does just fine with family. If your biggest hurdle is having to lock the dog up when a man comes over, well so what.

---------- Post added at 07:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 AM ----------

I think I was pretty clear.... If it wont cause the dog to have poor quality of life, or my family unsafe, then it's fine. So any extreme situation you can think up, clearly it falls into one of those two... Does it not?

 

[chuckorlando]

I think I was pretty clear.... If it wont cause the dog to have poor quality of life, or my family unsafe, then it's fine. So any extreme situation you can think up, clearly it falls into one of those two... Does it not?

 

[Jadotha]

I think we have been touching upon a number of different topics under the umbrella of 'culling'. I don't think there are black and white 'Yay or Nay' answers to any of them. One subject is the ethics of' culling' ( = killing) of new born puppies for various reasons. I would think most of us would find this acceptable in the cases of puppies born with profound disabilities not compatible with life, or making it clearly and unequivocally impossible for the puppy to live with a reasonable quality of life. At the other extreme, we have situations in which puppies are culled for [FONT=&amp]purely[/FONT] cosmetic reasons -- puppies with non-standard colours/coats: the ridgeback example, pied and fluffy EMs -- which are only considered 'faults', not disqualifications in the show ring, etc. I say 'Nay' to culling in these situations -- individuals can easily be kept out of the generic pool through neutering.

Then there are slightly murkier new born puppy issues: The repairable cleft palate issue, for example -- how far should a breeder go in attempting to 'fix' a genetic defect? In the GD world, (as I think has already been mentioned), there is an ongoing debate about culling white puppies in Harlequin litters, as they are often born deaf and/or blind. Culling these pups used to be considered standard operating policy. But more and more GD breeders, owners and fanciers are finding this ethically objectionable. Firstly because they are inevitable in the process of breeding of harlequins-- hence more breeders are assuming accountability for them -- and people are discovering that a Dane that is blind or deaf from birth can adapt to its limitations live a very happy life as a pet. I don't have a strong 'Yay or Nay' opinion on this category.
I think each case is situational and ultimate decisions are based on the breeder's value system and more prosaic concerns such finances

Next we have adult dogs and 'temperament' issues.( I don't believe temperament issues so severe that one would consider euthenising a pup ever manifest in earliest puppy-hood). I think it is also extremely difficult to determine with certainty that a temperament issue is due to heredity or environment. One can breed for the consistent expression of specific kinds of temperaments, as evidenced by the range of soft to hard temperaments in our mastiff breeds. However, aggressiveness of genetic origin in dogs (and people) is still poorly understood. Since the canine genome has been mapped, various researchers have found a number of genes that seem to play a role in inappropriate aggression, and anxiety disorders in dogs, but they are interactive (no one gene causes it) and appear to act by interfering with levels of serotonin and dopamine. One other important finding is that [FONT=&amp]research now shows that experience and learning can alter brain structure and chemistry (in dogs and humans), and behaviour. This is why it is possible to completely rehabilitate and/or improve and manage most aggressive/anxious dogs through environment and training. I do not believe dogs with temperament issues should be used in breeding programs, but they can neutered or simply not allowed to breed. I have dealt successfully with two problem children – a fear aggressive Great Dane, and an adopted IWH with resource guarding issues to the point that he initially did bite two family members, drawing blood. A year later, he is relaxed, happy and perfectly fine with our taking things away from him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]I believe there are cases in which the psychological problems or physical disabilities are so severe that euthanasia is warranted, but imho it should be a last resort.[/FONT]

 

[northernmastiff]

Great way to sum it up Jadotha. I feel exactly as you pointed out. I was focusing on culling at birth (which is what I think of when I hear or see the word cull). So yay for culling for a health issue that affects quality of life. Nay for culling in regards to colour or appearance. On the fence with the whole white dog problem, I can see the reasons for and against and don't feel strongly either way. And yes, I believe when we get into the topic of older dogs, it is not as cut and dry and shouldn't really be placed in the culling topic.

 

[cwayaustx]

A little pot stirring here... What about culling a brood of Fila pups from untested temp/health parents of unknown background vs selling to inexperienced pet owners wanting the latest bada$$ dog, or even someone that might be okay with a proper temp fila but not enough knowledge to know the importance of proper temperments? (as I think this was one of the original reasons for this thread) Should an entire breed risk BSL and someone's child's face or life be risked for the life's of a couple of puppies? Of course ideally this situation should never happen but we all know this is the real world...And yes I might not be a good person for letting the dogs breed to begin with but would it make me a worse person to put the dogs down for the bigger picture? Or should I just sell them to my friends, family and on CL to anyone with cash because anyone who knows Filas and is experienced enough and knowledgeable enough to deserve such a breed would most likely not risk having said dogs around their family and certainly would not pay Fila money for them.

fire away...

 

[northernmastiff]

A little pot stirring here... What about culling a brood of Fila pups from untested temp/health parents of unknown background vs selling to inexperienced pet owners wanting the latest bada$$ dog, or even someone that might be okay with a proper temp fila but not enough knowledge to know the importance of proper temperments? (as I think this was one of the original reasons for this thread) Should an entire breed risk BSL and someone's child's face or life be risked for the life's of a couple of puppies? Of course ideally this situation should never happen but we all know this is the real world...And yes I might not be a good person for letting the dogs breed to begin with but at would it make me a worse person to put the dogs down for the bigger picture? Or should I just sell them to my friends, family and on CL to anyone with cash because anyone who knows Filas and is experienced enough and knowledgeable enough to deserve such a breed would most likely not risk having said dogs around their family and certainly would not pay Fila money for them.

fire away...

Well, the obvious answer is that you should be culled for breeding them. Duh.

Filas are the extreme so yes, I could see culling the litter in that instance but I would have it aborted as soon as I knew that a breeding took place. If it is aborted, then there is really no debate on culling.