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Severe Human Agression Help Needed

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
I'm joining the conversation a bit late, but here are my thoughts.

First, I agree that this sounds like severe fear aggression. Additionally, we can't know what the pup's life was like with her former owner, but she may very well have been traumatised by the owner's illness and death, as well. A close friend of mine died painfully of cancer over the period of 18 months. Her dog spent every waking moment at her side until he had to be locked in a room whenever doctors and medical staff administered treatment, as he got to the point that he tried to tear them limb from limb -- no doubt because in his mind they were hurting his mistress.

Our last dog, a Great Dane, developed fear aggression at the age of two, precipitated by a couple of unfortunate interactions in a row -- a construction worker suddenly popping out of an excavation in the road as we walked past -- throwing a shovel full of gravel on us; a bunch of teenagers on bicycles dive bombing us, screaming and yelling, up onto a stranger's lawn until we sought refuge on a porch. My dog became extremely aggressive toward all strangers and bit one visitor. After that, we put safe-guards into place, much like Jim has, and we were able to manage him quite well, with no further incidents. Hence, I think it is beyond extreme to recommend euthanasia. As my dog was food motivated, (taking advice from a behaviourist) we were able to reduce his aggression to the point that we could walk him without a muzzle and he would tolerate the proximity of other people as long as they didn't try to pet him. He even got to like a couple of our neighbors. This was good enough for me. I DO hope the OP does get expert advice from an appropriate resource to improve his situation, but these dogs CAN be managed so they do not pose a danger to society.

Re: diverdan's remarks about dog attacks, I would add that the average number of people killed by dog attacks averages 35 in the US (in 2012 it was 38). Far more people, according to the CDC, die by falling out of bed. Studies have shown that shelter, dog control and police personnel are notoriously unreliable at correctly identifying dog breeds. In terms[FONT=&amp] of lurid media coverage, the 'pit bull' or 'pit bull type' labeling seems to include anything that is not blatantly and immediately obviously another breed [/FONT]. Another media related issue is that initial headlines will proclaim " Pit Bulls maul X". Later on, we will discover, buried in the depths of the newspaper a brief correction that the dogs involved were something other than pit bulls.

[FONT=&amp]In 2012, several US states and countries that have had BSL in place for some period of time have become convinced of its ineffectiveness and have repealed, or are considering/debating the repeal of such legislation[/FONT].
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
I have a serious problem with your posting as would a lot of other members here I think. Number 1 we don’t know that the trainers that have been tried are the correct type of trainer to deal with and assist this issue. This is a very specific fear that is occurring and not every trainer is equipped with the correct knowledge on how to fear with fear based aggression and certainly not in this breed. This dog sounds to me like it has been through the mill and back and has fallen lucky to find Taisaa who would rather call out for help then go ‘oh well I tried, didn’t work so I have to kill you’. Let me tell you, and I know this for fact, the majority of dogs CAN be and are helped, and what is required from the start is a knowledgeable trainer who is experienced with this type of behaviour that can and will work with the animal and its family.

I know of a trainer here in the UK that does AMAZING work with level 3 dogs, these are dogs that are on death row because of a number of factors, the main being irresponsible ownership and it is believed the dogs are aggressive and cannot be rehabilitated, he has proven this to be a load of rubbish! He saved his Rottie from death row in France a number of years ago. No one could get near this dog, it had grown in to its chain which needed to be surgically removed and the vet or kennel staff couldn’t get near him to help him…they couldn’t clean his kennel or even walk him. No one could get in and no one could get out. You know what, his Rottie is now a Pets as Therapy dog! So please don’t tell me that this dog, or many like him need to be put down!

What he needs is to be understood and his behaviour corrected.

And if you don’t believe me about the Rottie here is the link to James web site. I know this man personally, the work he does is amazing, I have seen it with my own two eyes. http://www.jamesconroy.co.uk/about_james_conroy_dog_behaviourist.html

Have a look on face book at Iron Mountain Rescue, this is another organisation that I respect. They take so called ‘dangerous dogs’ and they work hard with them to rehabilitate them. Do these dogs find stable and loving homes? Oh yeah they do. Have these dogs been considered aggressive? You bet they have! Can they be helped, YES. Did they deserve the start in life they got? NO! Do they deserve to live a happy and joyful life surrounded by love? YES! Would it have been the easy way out to just kill them? You bet, but that is not what being a responsible dog owner is about. Dogs are not disposable, like people they have problems, some of them more serious than others but given the CORRECT type of help and love they can overcome these problems to become a stable member of society.


Mooshi's Mummy, thanks for the link I like this guy's way of thinking. :)

Jadotha, never too late, LOL.
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
No offense to you. ahahahahaha. The south pushes "our moral's" the north "save you from your self", The west is just off their rocker. ahahahaha

I laughed so hard at this, I fell off the porch (having already fallen off my rocker long ago)!
:lolbangtable:

---------- Post added at 10:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

the 2011 report on dog bite related fatalities from the National Canine Research Council. They make special note of how the dog was labeled in the media, versus actual details that could actually be determined as to the real breed of the dog.

And, the majority of the fatalities were from "resident" dogs - defined as "one whose owners isolate the dog from regular, positive human interactions."

Thank you DD for the link to James' website. He looks like a great resource, I also like his way of thinking!
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
the 2011 report on dog bite related fatalities from the National Canine Research Council. They make special note of how the dog was labeled in the media, versus actual details that could actually be determined as to the real breed of the dog.

And, the majority of the fatalities were from "resident" dogs - defined as "one whose owners isolate the dog from regular, positive human interactions."

Thank you DD for the link to James' website. He looks like a great resource, I also like his way of thinking!
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Hmmmm interesting conversation here.
I can see both sides honestly and may get flack for what I am about to write but so be it.
A fear aggressive unstable Corso is a VERY dangerous animal. Unstability, unfortunately, is rampant in this breed.
The OP loves their dog, most certainly, but can they honestly say without a doubt that they can keep the public safe from this dog?
There have already been mistakes which caused people to be injured.
What happens one day if a child runs up to the dog and it is the one time it doesn't have the muzzle on, of some how the fence breaks or the dog jumps it. I have seen a CC I jump a 6 ft fence.
It reminded me of a cross post from a Rottie forum I read;
Below is a cross post from the Rottweiler forum...

breeders that don't temperament test, provide training or stable environments for their breeding stock often create puppies not only with health problems but serious temperament problems. Many of these problem puppies make their owner's life a living hell.


When "compassion" clouds judgment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me again with a little thought for the day...

It is quite often that you run across a dog owner who strongly feels that they have "saved/rescued" a dog they currently own. I applaud people who rescue, and those who adopt rescues. It is not easy to clean up the mess of others.

There is a notion, however, that many people just don't seem to be able to understand. There comes a point that "saving" an animal becomes a selfish crusade for both the pet, and for other members of the family.

How many people here have posted about an "abused/neglected/unwanted dog" they "saved" that is displaying some serious behavioral problems. And when they are confronted about the dog's behavior, they revert back to the "at least she is still alive, she was abused, I saved her" mode? They have become so tangled up in the dog's issues that they can no longer see that they are ruining the quality of life of their family, putting everyone who meets this dog at risk, and seriously degrading the dog's life at the same time.

I believe that each and every animal in this world is precious, and that our companion animals deserve to live a life free from chronic physical pain and constant mental stress. I believe that it is not natural for a companion animal to harm his master, or members of his household, and that an animal who does so is suffering. I know that a lot of people read a post, where euthanasia is brought up and reel back and say "how could you be so cruel, so heartless, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND"...

Anyone here who has been involved with rottweilers long enough understands that there is a point where no amount of love, no amount of training or safeguarding can save an animal. And that an animal that has been ruined by BYB, or abuse, poor ownership should not be strung along for the rest of its twisted life just so the owner can be spared the heartache of sending that animal to the bridge. We OWE our companions more respect than that!

It takes a lot of heart to own this breed. And even more to rescue an animal in need. But perhaps the aspect of owning this breed that requires the most heart is knowing when to release a dog to the bridge, whether due to physical or mental reasons. I hope that anyone here who is dealing with an animal with a behavioral issues reads this post objectively, and never forgets what true "compassion" means for our animals.

Just a thought for the day.

Written by Poster Winniecnm

Although written about Rotties, it applies to all CC!
Is it really in the best interest of the dog to keep it alive, living a life of fear and stress or is it to feel better about ourselves...
 
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Jadotha

Well-Known Member
Well, unless I have misread the OP's posts, there was only one (initial) incident that involved a bite. The OP did not specify how serious the bite was -- and this, imho, would be an important factor to consider. I would surmise it wasn't terribly serious, as Animal Control did not get involved, and the OP did not mention anything about a quarantine. Additionally, the OP states he lives on a one hundred acre farm, not in the middle of New York city or in a suburban development with lots of kids and neighbors who might be at risk. From what the OP tells us, his pup has been fine with her family (himself) -- the other circumstance focussed on in the above post.

In my view, the post is making an emotional appeal and is very generalised. If one is considering How to manage -- or decide to end the life of -- a companion animal with behavioural issues, I think each case, and all of the attending behavioral, historical, environmental and risk factors should be carefully and individually evaluated.
 
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taisa899

Well-Known Member
Ok I WILL NOT put Baby down. Would you say put a child down? Even if that child has been in many fights which shows he/she is an agressive human? All it takes is a hit in the right spot and that child can cause very serious injuries or even death
Yes a dog has teeth but a human has arms and legs and can also do irreversible damage. If you wouldn't do it to another human why would you do it to an animal?

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Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Human laws are different from animal laws. Though I agree some humans do need to be euthanized so I can stop paying for them, but that's a different topic.

Cody I agree but most breeders do not TT whichis a HUGE pet peeve of mine. They will make any excuse travel x amount miles for shows, breeding, or health testing. Yet pump the brakes with TT. I don't get it. What good is a healthy dog if its mentally unstable.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
Ok I WILL NOT put Baby down.

Given everything you've told us, I totally support you! And, just to remind everyone, the OP came asking for help in training his pup, not advice to put her down. On other forums I belong to people have made the decision to kill their dogs. But in all of them (not that there were that many), the dog was unpredictable, attacked suddenly with no provocation that could be identified (for example, one dog was peacefully lying on top of a a 15 yr old family member on the sofa, and suddenly bit her in the face, causing serious wounds). Those factors are not present at all in the case of Baby and the OP.
 

taisa899

Well-Known Member
Thank you. I know what her reaction will be to new people. When I exit my house she is ALWAYS on lead until I take a look around. All my friends and family know to wait till I answer the door to enter. Anybody who enters otherwise is therefore an unwanted and uninvited intruder and they get they derserve

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DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Ok I WILL NOT put Baby down.

I support you, too!!!

That you came to this forum for some suggestions tells me you are not exhausted yet, and still have a good chance of getting through to Baby. I think you're on the right track, and hopefully you've found some new information here that will help you in your challenge. That she was with her owner when she died is crazy. I'm sure that left a lasting impression with her. She may be deathly afraid you'll leave her, too. That kind of fear is hard to turn around - but I have faith you can do it!

All the best!!
-Tina
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I hardly think you've exercised all your options yet. And its only at THAT point would I even consider putting euthanisia on the table. The trainers you talked to gave up after one visit. That doesn't give me warm fuzzies about their abilities. I AM kinda wondering if this may be a case where anti-anxiety drugs might be usefull to break her fear lock so that a trainer can get through to her, but I don't think euthanisia is something to be seriously considered yet. Especially considering the living situation that you have right now. If you were in the middle of the city it might be different, but you aren't.
 

taisa899

Well-Known Member
On Baby's one and only bite even my friend said he was at fault for not listening to what I said and surprising the dog, the bite was not a serious injury and did not require stitches only a band aid.
Like I have stated she is not only good with me but also good with my landlord off leash. On leash she does not try to bite my landlord but does get pushy with her. She is a great dog, loves to cuddle and never messes or chews anything, I can also leave a steak on a table and leave the house for hours and come home and it will not be touched till I say it's ok

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Cody

Well-Known Member
Ok I WILL NOT put Baby down. Would you say put a child down? Even if that child has been in many fights which shows he/she is an agressive human? All it takes is a hit in the right spot and that child can cause very serious injuries or even death
Yes a dog has teeth but a human has arms and legs and can also do irreversible damage. If you wouldn't do it to another human why would you do it to an animal?

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I am sorry but this comparison makes no sense.
Dogs are not humans and definitely not children.
Treating a dominant breed as such may indeed be part of the problem you are dealing with.
A child's upper body strength cannot be compared to the bite force of a Corso, sorrybut your analogy is absurd.

@ DD So true! I would take a Dog who is temperament tested any day over a CH inthe ring.
Genetic Stability is of the utmost importance for me! A dog without that is a liability.
 

diverdan169

Well-Known Member
The title of Jim's post is "severe Human aggression." However I believe he comfirms my argument regarding how some folks view their dogs when he said "Ok I WILL NOT put Baby down. Would you say put a child down?" Why does anyone equate their dogs as equal to people. I could not disagree more with this mind set.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
In terms of Jim's title, the word 'severe' -- like most words --can mean many different things to different people. I am reminded of one of my friends who is very concerned about the state of her skin. One day she called to cancel a lunch engagement with me because of a 'severe rash all over her face'. When I saw her, she had literally three pimples. That's why, in my view, it is important to ask questions and discern what the situation really is rather than responding to 'headlines'.

Many people on many dog (and horse) forums I belong to equate their pets with their children. Whether I feel that way or not, this is how they legitimately feel, and I don't think it is anyone else's position to judge them. Decide what is right for you, and understand there are other world views.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
In terms of Jim's title, the word 'severe' -- like most words --can mean many different things to different people. I am reminded of one of my friends who is very concerned about the state of her skin. One day she called to cancel a lunch engagement with me because of a 'severe rash all over her face'. When I saw her, she had literally three pimples. That's why, in my view, it is important to ask questions and discern what the situation really is rather than responding to 'headlines'.

Many people on many dog (and horse) forums I belong to equate their pets with their children. Whether I feel that way or not, this is how they legitimately feel, and I don't think it is anyone else's position to judge them. Decide what is right for you, and understand there are other world views.

Well said.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
In terms of Jim's title, the word 'severe' -- like most words --can mean many different things to different people. I am reminded of one of my friends who is very concerned about the state of her skin. One day she called to cancel a lunch engagement with me because of a 'severe rash all over her face'. When I saw her, she had literally three pimples. That's why, in my view, it is important to ask questions and discern what the situation really is rather than responding to 'headlines'.

Many people on many dog (and horse) forums I belong to equate their pets with their children. Whether I feel that way or not, this is how they legitimately feel, and I don't think it is anyone else's position to judge them. Decide what is right for you, and understand there are other world views.
That may be the case, however treating a Corso as a child in most cases will lead to serious dominance issues.
I love this breed, I adore it, but seeing posts like this make me cringe.
I have seen how they end too many times :(
Yes there are many world views, coddling our pets and humanizing them however is a VERY western concept.
I also believe I said their use of comparing a child who inflicts serious damage with a Cane Corso is absurd, no reflection on how much one loves their dog...
 
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taisa899

Well-Known Member
That may be the case, however treating a Corso as a child in most cases will lead to serious dominance issues.
I love this breed, I adore it, but seeing posts like this make me cringe.
I have seen how they end too many times :(
Yes there are many world views, coddling our pets and humanizing them however is a VERY western concept.
I also believe I said their use of comparing a child who inflicts serious damage with a Cane Corso is absurd, no reflection on how much one loves their dog...

First of all I do not treat my Corso like a child I treat her like a dog.
Second I titled it "severe" because she wants to bite new people right away as soon as she sees them.
Third the comparison to a child is valid. Both a child and any dog can kill just as easily as the other. Read the papers you will find just as many instances of both

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