Need advice!!

[BAMCB]

Edit to say:
I started this post at 3:15 but was just able to finish. I have not read up on all the posts since then so please excuse my lack of knowing what events have transpired since earlier that may give good reasons against my opinions. Thanks for understanding

Ok, I am only playing a devils advocate. This are only my thoughts and I'm not a professional let me start with saying I am truly sorry for what has happened and given your situation I would not bring the dog back into my home with young children. Not worth the risk to my kids no matter how much I loved my dog. As painful as that decision would be, it would be nothing compared to my child being hurt in any way at all.
That being said I would like to ask what training has been given to this dog since puppyhood? Some dogs need very strong leadership, rules and boundaries. Was this given in an effective way? Should the dog be destroyed if not? I only ask because my sister lacked those skills and training with her pup and "surprise!" the dog resource guarded her/food/toys from her kids! Multiple times while never lashing out at my sister. Could this be the case for the aggression? Why would the dog attack the child when unprovoked in front of a firm leader? I also learned the hard way with my first EM and having a good training plan. Lucky for me it was a only a lesson in learning to control a 200 lb dog on a leash but that could have been a very different story if he was unstable or aggressive. I'm only bringing this up for the argument over euthanizing. The dog should not go back to this home, I think we all agree. But why not have a behavioralist, trainer and vet thoroughly check into the behavior, training and medical issues which may give a cause of this aggression before being so quick to euthanize? Thoughts?

 

[Hector]

It's up to you, but at this point judging from how things are going I would end the suffering sooner than later. Once he is gone, you will never have to worry about him ever harming anyone.

 

[OdinBB]

BAMCB, we gave him basic puppy training, obedience training, after he attacked on of my dogs we had a trainer assess him and we had some intensive (or what he said was intensive training). I was never present during their sessions. And another obedience class. I know it may not have been what he needed but I utilized the resources I had. I feel that I was a firm leader with boundaries in place. I do not know or ever heard of a stable dog attacking a family member that was not provoked at all and so vicious. I am no dog expert but if he was sending a warning or resource guarding he wouldn't have kept trying to get to her and hurt her after I pulled him away. People say if you were a firm leader he wouldn't have tried. Well I feel if he didn't respect me or my leadership he wouldn't have allowed me to stop him. Or maybe he didn't allow me and I just over powered him but I highly doubt the later. He is a massive and an extremely strong dog, I just don't know how I did it. Now if we could afford getting a behaviorist and the training he would need to be assessed I would, but we just simply can't afford it.

 

[teodora]

can you find somebody who has the resources to asess/train him?He's a strong and beautiful dog. His breed is quite expensive, maybe someone would get Odin a chance to be properly trained and re-assessed?

 

[OdinBB]

I will look into it, and contact the trainers I used to see if they could assess and train him appropriately.

 

[BAMCB]

I meant no ill towards you OdinBB. I was merely going off of my experiences. I do understand how much you love him and only want what's best for your children AND Odin. Looking into outside funding is a good idea. This is where my sister sent her dog. I do not know these people and do not know their ability in training all dogs. I just know they did well with hers.

Dogs by Design

 

[teodora]

me neither. I had to rehome a dog because of aggression. It was quite similar with what you've been through, I wrote it in a previous post. But my child was a baby (new born) and the dog (a terrier) was getting progressively grumpy during the first days until he eventually bit me. He didn't mean to bite me, he meant to go for the baby, but the baby was in my arms so I protected the baby and got bitten. It happened at night, before I had any chance to turn on the light, and I am just so happy that my instincts to protect the child kicked in. Any new mother knows how tired and in pain and overwhelmed can be a 1st time mom in her first week with the baby at home. I went out of the baby's room, with the baby, to get some milk from the fridge and the dog was sleeping in the kitchen. I noticed he peed on the baby's bedroom door but I thought nothing of it, even if it was totally out of dog's character to pee in the house. Then in the next second the dog was up on me. It happened so quickly I was just lucky to react instinctively. Fortunately, he wasn't a mastiff. And he did let go pretty quickly, when I shouted and kicked him. My first impression was that he didn't know it was me. Then i saw the marks and I understood he went for the baby: he bit my arm exactly where I was holding the baby, probably because I put my arm between him and the child. After he released my arm he bit my foot - so he did it twice, for no damn reason at all. That dog was my baby, I rescued him as a young pup and he was just great before the baby arrived. I had him out of the house that night. He went to stay with relatives with no children for a couple of days than he was rehomed in the country. He is still living with a man who is pretty good with dogs, as a single dog in the household. He didn't have any other problems ever since (there are almost 10 years).I couldn't put him down. And I don't regret I didn't. From that moment on I didn't feel any connection with that dog anymore. And with any dog as a matter of fact. He broke my trust. I didn't trust nor "love" him anymore. I didn't feel sorry for letting him go. I was mad at him, I was angry, I felt betrayed in the worst possible way, in a a way I never felt when I was let down by people. I felt I didn't deserve this, I felt all the foundation of a childhood with dogs as best friends collapsed on my head. But I was just unable to kill him. Now I read the story of your dog and, as an outsider, I reckon the right thing to do is to give him a chance with someone else. I am glad you don't have hard feelings for what he's done: I did. A lot of them. It took a long time to be able to bond with a dog again.

 

[OdinBB]

I know BAMC I am not taking offense to them, I am a big girl I understand that the truth hurts sometimes. But I need to hear it and I truly do appreciate it.

 

[Hiraeth]

I guess it's time to be as blunt as possible - if his attack was provoked, if there was a definite trigger, if he had attacked a non-family member, if he had not gone after a child - I would say that maybe finding a trainer who will work with him is a solution.

But this is reality - he attacked your child. A beloved family member he has been raised with from puppyhood. For no apparent reason. And you had to pull him off and hold him back so he didn't severely maim or kill her.

That is a dog who can't be trusted and who is impossible to "train". From a trainer's perspective - let's say the trainer is me for the sake of ease of communication. You're going to give me a dog you say attacked a child without a trigger. How do I rehab that dog? Introduce multiple triggers until I get a response? Expose the dog to children to see if I can get him to lunge or attack so I can correct the behavior? A big part of rehabilitating a dog is teaching them how to live comfortably around things that previously triggered them to be aggressive. Because no sane trainer would put this dog around children, *Odin is NOT a candidate for training or rehabilitation*. He is a candidate for strict management. He can't be trained while considering the safety of children and other dogs (since he has attacked your other dog, as well). He can only be kept separate from his triggers and live a strict life in a 100% controlled environment.

Just like my dog who attacked a child when he was a puppy being hit with a stick - Loki was never "rehabbed" and he was never "safe". Odin will never be "safe". His environment can be made safe FOR HIM, but he will never be a dog who can (or should) be trusted.

I think, at this point, OdinBB, you are being idealistic instead of realistic. Because idealism is much easier when you're facing making a hard decision and losing a dog you love. However, realistically, your veterinarian won't even take Odin. The shelter won't approach him to run blood work on him. EVERYONE else is considering him a dangerous and aggressive dog. And they are right.

As far as your question goes, I'd go sooner rather than later. Since the shelter has him quarantined, he's most likely been stuck in the same cage for however long he has been there, has not been outside, or been able to exercise. If he were my dog, I'd pick him up, find a nice empty park, go for a long walk, stop by McDonald's and pick up some chicken nuggets or a few cheeseburgers and have the best lunch ever, and then drive to the vet to say goodbye.

It probably seems like I'm trying to persuade you that I'm right, but I'm not. What I'm trying to get across is that everyone who is suggesting that "training" will fix this problem is incorrect and has never worked with a truly child aggressive dog. I lived with one for six years. Maybe training would have fixed the problem BEFORE Odin attacked your daughter, or maybe not. I'm inclined to think that a dog who attacks a family member in an unprovoked fashion has something wired wrong in its brain. But there is no "fixing" this problem, or "training" the aggression out of him now. There is only managing it so that it never happens again. And management comes with risk and the possibility that an accident happens that results in a severe or fatal injury to someone down the line.

Again, I'm very sorry that you're in this situation and that you have difficult decisions to make in regards to Odin's future. And again, I hope you can find peace with whatever you decide to do.

 

[NYDDB]

Another issue I find troubling- or unsure of, really- is the focusing on children. What constitutes a "child?" It's a sliding scale, really. Some young adults are very small and childlike...where does the trigger start and "end" for a dog that is child aggressive? We can never know where the cut-off for such a dog is: i.e. suddenly after puberty the person is safe?

In other words, I would have to feel the dog is human aggressive, period. IMHO.

 

[NYDDB]

ETA:

OdinBB, my heart is breaking for you...and I cannot imagine the struggle and angst you are going through.

 

[BAMCB]

Teodora-I'm so sorry

 

[Boxergirl]

OdinBB, my heart truly hurts for the decision you have to make. If he is in quarantine, I think the ten day waiting period is mandatory simply because of rabies - even if the animal was vaccinated.

For what it's worth, I agree more than 100% with everything Hiraeth posted. I wish I didn't, but I do. I hope your daughter is doing okay.

 

[Lisa P]

I agree with everything Hiraeth said,everything...I'm so sorry

 

[CeeCee]

I don't have all the history with Odin and the only information I have is what is here in this thread, but it is obvious that you are in a very tough position. The question is, can YOU do what is necessary to keep Odin, your household, and society safe and successful? It's not just a matter of money, it is also a matter of time and dedication - NOT an easy task for a single person who is focused solely on their dog and I imagine truly a challenge when you have a family. The other thing that has to be added is what is the quality of life Odin can expect to have during and after any rehabilitation? If you cannot provide this, can you find a knowledgeable and experienced resource who can and is willing to take on this task? I have seen enough Trainers who are unwilling to admit that a dog is beyond their experience and/or comfort level, but are unable to be honest with themselves and others about this that their words are not enough for me. I am also skeptical of what the Shelter and the Vet say because they are looking it through their eyes and what they have either heard or seen in their environments - which are very stressful for the humans and the animals. Without medical tests and not having witnessed the attack(s) and what may have led up to it all any of us can do is hypothesize. I also know that a genuinely offensively aggressive dog is a VERY RARE occurrence. Do you have the time and resources to discover whether or not Odin is genuinely offensively aggressive? If he isn't, do you have or can you find the time and resources needed to rehabilitate him? If not, it breaks my heart to say it, then you need to let him go. Having said all of that, if I were in your position, I would do EVERYTHING within my power and capabilities to discover these answers and find the resources to help him live the life that I could not give him. Prayers to Odin, you, and your family.

 

[OdinBB]

me neither. I had to rehome a dog because of aggression. It was quite similar with what you've been through, I wrote it in a previous post. But my child was a baby (new born) and the dog (a terrier) was getting progressively grumpy during the first days until he eventually bit me. He didn't mean to bite me, he meant to go for the baby, but the baby was in my arms so I protected the baby and got bitten. It happened at night, before I had any chance to turn on the light, and I am just so happy that my instincts to protect the child kicked in. Any new mother knows how tired and in pain and overwhelmed can be a 1st time mom in her first week with the baby at home. I went out of the baby's room, with the baby, to get some milk from the fridge and the dog was sleeping in the kitchen. I noticed he peed on the baby's bedroom door but I thought nothing of it, even if it was totally out of dog's character to pee in the house. Then in the next second the dog was up on me. It happened so quickly I was just lucky to react instinctively. Fortunately, he wasn't a mastiff. And he did let go pretty quickly, when I shouted and kicked him. My first impression was that he didn't know it was me. Then i saw the marks and I understood he went for the baby: he bit my arm exactly where I was holding the baby, probably because I put my arm between him and the child. After he released my arm he bit my foot - so he did it twice, for no damn reason at all. That dog was my baby, I rescued him as a young pup and he was just great before the baby arrived. I had him out of the house that night. He went to stay with relatives with no children for a couple of days than he was rehomed in the country. He is still living with a man who is pretty good with dogs, as a single dog in the household. He didn't have any other problems ever since (there are almost 10 years).I couldn't put him down. And I don't regret I didn't. From that moment on I didn't feel any connection with that dog anymore. And with any dog as a matter of fact. He broke my trust. I didn't trust nor "love" him anymore. I didn't feel sorry for letting him go. I was mad at him, I was angry, I felt betrayed in the worst possible way, in a a way I never felt when I was let down by people. I felt I didn't deserve this, I felt all the foundation of a childhood with dogs as best friends collapsed on my head. But I was just unable to kill him. Now I read the story of your dog and, as an outsider, I reckon the right thing to do is to give him a chance with someone else. I am glad you don't have hard feelings for what he's done: I did. A lot of them. It took a long time to be able to bond with a dog again.

Teodora, thank you for sharing your story, my heart breaks for you. Where you were 10 years ago with your dog my husband is feeling toward Odin thank you for sharing your experience. I looked into trainers/behaviorist, and the few I talked to feel euthanasia is the way to go. My vet also feels it is appropriate, I have one more expert I am waiting on, I am not optimistic. I don't want to regret my decision on putting him to sleep so I am going to do what I can and exhaust all my options.

 

[OdinBB]

The more I speak with the professionals, the more I feel it necessary to euthanize, I have a few days to think about it. I want to ensure it is the right thing and I am not cutting his life short without looking at all the options, I am taking this very seriously. I spoke with the humane society and they will release him to me, I am trying to coordinate with some friends to watch the kids over the weekend and have Odin home with me. He will have to stay in his kennel the majority of the time but at least he will be home and I think he well be ok with that. Spend the weekend and half a day on Monday (my boss won't give me Monday off) and bring him in to close this horrible chapter and start the healing process. I will keep everyone updated, again thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate all of your insight.

 

[season]

Have u thought about sending him away for rehab? Like a guy like Jeff Gelman? He deals with these scenarios all the time.


"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday."
- Miyamoto Musashi

 

[Rugers-Kris]

What a horrible situation you are in. I'm sorry that you are going through this. I hate to agree that the time has come to let him go but I do. No rescue will take him the bite history and it obvious that bringing him home to live can't be done as it is a risk you shouldn't take and if he was to be completely "contained" constantly then that would be no life for him either. I wish you the best.

 

[season]

I saw u said "I want to ensure it is the right thing and I am not cutting his life short without looking at all the options". Well I know u are getting a lot of advice to put the dog down. I simply don't agree with that. So if u are willing to look at other options why not a Jeff Gellman or Sean O'Shea? Jeff has saved many "aggressive" dogs. Dogs with bite history. This isn't a sales pitch but advice. Your dog could change. But along with that you and your family would need to change how u live with the dog. That's what failed your dog. It can be done. But it's not my call.


"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday."
- Miyamoto Musashi