I feel Like the worst mother in the whole world...

[Rugers-Kris]

I didn't insist anything, Ruth. I responded to what you ACTUALLY wrote about your dog and his breed and what you feel they are not capable of...Not coming off the collar with some craziness that I made up because I was angry with you. I am not angry, I am debatng a topic. Your implication is that I have not put thought, time and energy into training my dogs which you know is just another made up angry remark because I have been on this forum since I brought Ruger home and you know the work I have put into both dogs and have complimented on many occasions. You are just lashing out because it is your opinion that if someone doesn't agree with you, they are wrong. It doesn't work that way.

Also, at no time did I say or even give the inkling of implication that I don't use treats for rewards...I actually stated the opposite several times so I guess that was just another angry remark, too. I am very capable of owning an breed of dog to include the TM an LGD without a doubt and there are many people on this forum as well as out in the real world who would agree with that so your "stab" of an insult did not reach it's desired target.

An debate regardless of the topic is a good thing and such a learning experience the only thing that makes this conversation moot is your juvenile lashing out for no reason other than you want the upperhand.

It makes as much sense as insisting that because I actually have to put thought, time, and energy into training my dog that makes my dog completely untrainable. Which is what you DID say. Which also pretty much makes this whole arguement a moot point because you're never going to understand what I'm saying.

Seriously, if Ruger and Magnum and your previous pits were so people driven as to happily do whatever you wanted even at a very young age, without the consideration of a reward beyond a happy voice, then consider yourself lucky. And never ever ever get a TM or other LGD type......

 

[broccolini]

I have read and researched them and actually spent hours talking to Tammy about Mooshi and TM's in general so I do believe that they are a "harder" breed (assuming you don't have an unusually soft TM) and I am sure they require more work than some other breeds so I am not arguing that, I am simply saying that I do believe for a second the a TM isn't capable of being trusted by their owner or having trust and respect for their owner.

As for clipping her nails, you should go with what you feel is right. You asked what I thought and I told you but if you aren't comfortable with it, you really shouldn't do it.

I have one of each. Athena is harder, D'Argo is very soft. He's more difficult to train because he has no interest in doing anything at any time for any reason. Athena is actually a lot of fun to work with. But like I said, you need to be creative with her.

And I do trust my dogs within their limits. Athena's limit is her nails. I'm not sure D'Argo has any limits. I'm saying that they are never going to blindly trust you because you are 'in charge', because they are pretty sure that they're equals. Athena is very deferential toward me, but it's a choice she's made because I treat her fairly and with respect. I could never get her to act like that by demanding it from her. I mean, maybe I could, but I wouldn't actually trust her.

I think Cesar Milan would get his ass handed to him working with a TM.

I'm going to try doing all the nails at once every week. I'm okay with her tolerance level right now, but I'm kind of interested to see if it will work. It's like science.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I didn't insist anything, Ruth. I responded to what you ACTUALLY wrote about your dog and his breed and what you feel they are not capable of...

I stated that I have to work my dog around to my point of view by putting time and energy and thought into my approach.

You said that means he's untrainable.

Pretty much end of story.

You can't go into training a TM assuming that normal methods work. They might. Depends on the dog, what the training goal is, what the training method is, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. They might not. Depends on the dog, the training goal, the method, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. You CANNOT demand something of a TM and expect them to trust and respect you. They don't work that way. Well, you can demand they guard you from evil. They'll do that regardless of what you do, so you could get away with that.....

 

[Rugers-Kris]

That isn't all you stated. You can read back through to find the places that you talked about the TM limits. You are correct about all of the training method maybe and maybe nots but that goes for all dogs of all breeds not just the TM. I totally disagree that you cannot demand something of your dog (even a TM) and keep their respect. I wish we had more TM's owners here, especially seasoned ones so that we could get more real life experience but I know of one TM owner for sure that would not agree when it comes to the topic of resource guarding and their dog threatening them. I still say that a dog (ANY BREED) threatening, growling at or biting their owner is totally unacceptable and needs to be met with correction immediately to resolve it.

I stated that I have to work my dog around to my point of view by putting time and energy and thought into my approach.

You said that means he's untrainable.

Pretty much end of story.

You can't go into training a TM assuming that normal methods work. They might. Depends on the dog, what the training goal is, what the training method is, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. They might not. Depends on the dog, the training goal, the method, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. You CANNOT demand something of a TM and expect them to trust and respect you. They don't work that way. Well, you can demand they guard you from evil. They'll do that regardless of what you do, so you could get away with that.....

 

[Hector]

Okay, so I never said Hector was a good dog to raise and keep and in all honesty he is a dog I would cull. He is not safe to be around. I know that. I accept that. He stresses me out and everyone else out. I train and manage and chose to live with a dog like this. I have considered euthanasia many times over. It is not easy to live with a dog like him.

Still, the question remains to be answered, how do you deal with a dog that resource guards against you - growls or even potentially lunges at you? Do you run at him and pin him down until he pisses himself? Do you smack him with a frying pan until he passes out? Do you kick him? What is an immediate correction? What happens if you get bit?

I am genuinely curious...at real life events...

Hector in that video is not lunging at me, he is lunging at Bud. Them two don't get along when I'm home.

 

[ruthcatrin]

That isn't all you stated. You can read back through to find the places that you talked about the TM limits. You are correct about all of the training method maybe and maybe nots but that goes for all dogs of all breeds not just the TM. I totally disagree that you cannot demand something of your dog (even a TM) and keep their respect. I wish we had more TM's owners here, especially seasoned ones so that we could get more real life experience but I know of one TM owner for sure that would not agree when it comes to the topic of resource guarding and their dog threatening them. I still say that a dog (ANY BREED) threatening, growling at or biting their owner is totally unacceptable and needs to be met with correction immediately to resolve it.

.....We're using the same words and yet obviously not speaking the same language.....

Where did I say it was acceptable that a TM threaten their owner?

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I didn't imply that you did. I was stating my opinion. I am assuming you meant for those questions to be silly, Right? Of course it is not my intent to hold a dog down until the piss on themselves or hit them with a frying pan or any of that. An immideaite correction is to stop the behavior. In the case of Resource Guarding I would take the item and in the case of a growling, lunging dog, I would get my hands on them to stop the behavior and this does come with the risk of getting bit but if your own dog is trying to attack/bite you...It is a risk you have to take. What is your other option? To run? Ignore the behavior? Give him what he wants? Allow him to be the leader? Even if you take one of those options, the end result is that eventually you WILL have to deal with it as allowing the behavior reinforces it and it will just get worse so I don't see the point in living day to day waiting for the moment you are given no choice but to deal with it...Why not the first time it happens? I spent a lot of time around dogs that are nervous, aggressive, scared, etc. and I have never seen one that couldn't be helped and I am not sure that I believe that there are any that absolutely can't be helped but in the event that I had a dog that I had worked with constantly, done everything I could (to include the aforementioned taking of that risk) and I honestly believed that there was no way to rehabilitate them.....That I truly could never trust them? I would euthenize. That is my honest answer. As long as you can trust your dog and they can trust you then you can work with ANY issues an keep them as well as others safe but if you can't trust them with you...........How can you keep them or others safe?

Okay, so I never said Hector was a good dog to raise and keep and in all honesty he is a dog I would cull. He is not safe to be around. I know that. I accept that. He stresses me out and everyone else out. I train and manage and chose to live with a dog like this. I have considered euthanasia many times over. It is not easy to live with a dog like him.

Still, the question remains to be answered, how do you deal with a dog that resource guards against you - growls or even potentially lunges at you? Do you run at him and pin him down until he pisses himself? Do you smack him with a frying pan until he passes out? Do you kick him? What is an immediate correction? What happens if you get bit?

I am genuinely curious...at real life events...

Hector in that video is not lunging at me, he is lunging at Bud. Them two don't get along when I'm home.

 

[Smokeycat]

Something that I think is being missed is that a bribe isn't always a treat or a toy. For many dogs attention is the best reward there is. And by that definition everyone has admitted to using one.
I have been in the situation where Jiggers had gotten ahold of a very sharp knife. His goal when he 'steals' items is to be chased and as long as he thinks the game is on he will not drop it. For him a treat works as compensation for the lack of playing, he clearly doesn't think it's a reward. I used trading to get this behavior in place.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I am speaking of the many times in this thread that you refer to the "TM" being so different and how the training and the approach needs to be TM specific. All breeds are different but above all else they are dogs and you either can be the leader and earn respect of the dog or you can't. The fact that TM's are more independent doesn't doesn't make them impossible to raise in a way that they can trust you and you can trust them.

.....We're using the same words and yet obviously not speaking the same language.....

Where did I say it was acceptable that a TM threaten their owner?

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I can only speak for myself but I am not missing anything. The difference to me is that a bribe is something I give in order to get you to do what I want ( the dog wouldn't do it without the trade) and a reward is what I give AFTER the dog has done what I want.

Something that I think is being missed is that a bribe isn't always a treat or a toy. For many dogs attention is the best reward there is. And by that definition everyone has admitted to using one.
I have been in the situation where Jiggers had gotten ahold of a very sharp knife. His goal when he 'steals' items is to be chased and as long as he thinks the game is on he will not drop it. For him a treat works as compensation for the lack of playing, he clearly doesn't think it's a reward. I used trading to get this behavior in place.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Also, your situation doesn't involve any aggression whatsoever so that changes things completely. he doesn't RG the item.......This whole thread was started because the dog stole an item and growled and threatened when the owner tried to take it back....THAT is a whole new situation. Playing is very different. My Magnum is much ike your Jiggers in that he likes to steal socks and see if you will chase him but if you get to him and grab him he will not threaten or growl.

Something that I think is being missed is that a bribe isn't always a treat or a toy. For many dogs attention is the best reward there is. And by that definition everyone has admitted to using one.
I have been in the situation where Jiggers had gotten ahold of a very sharp knife. His goal when he 'steals' items is to be chased and as long as he thinks the game is on he will not drop it. For him a treat works as compensation for the lack of playing, he clearly doesn't think it's a reward. I used trading to get this behavior in place.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I didn't imply that you did. I was stating my opinion. I am assuming you meant for those questions to be silly, Right? Of course it is not my intent to hold a dog down until the piss on themselves or hit them with a frying pan or any of that. An immideaite correction is to stop the behavior. In the case of Resource Guarding I would take the item and in the case of a growling, lunging dog, I would get my hands on them to stop the behavior and this does come with the risk of getting bit but if your own dog is trying to attack/bite you...It is a risk you have to take. What is your other option? To run? Ignore the behavior? Give him what he wants? Allow him to be the leader? Even if you take one of those options, the end result is that eventually you WILL have to deal with it as allowing the behavior reinforces it and it will just get worse so I don't see the point in living day to day waiting for the moment you are given no choice but to deal with it...Why not the first time it happens? I spent a lot of time around dogs that are nervous, aggressive, scared, etc. and I have never seen one that couldn't be helped and I am not sure that I believe that there are any that absolutely can't be helped but in the event that I had a dog that I had worked with constantly, done everything I could (to include the aforementioned taking of that risk) and I honestly believed that there was no way to rehabilitate them.....That I truly could never trust them? I would euthenize. That is my honest answer. As long as you can trust your dog and they can trust you then you can work with ANY issues an keep them as well as others safe but if you can't trust them with you...........How can you keep them or others safe?

So then what, you took the item. Big whoop. How does that fix the RGing?

I am speaking of the many times in this thread that you refer to the "TM" being so different and how the training and the approach needs to be TM specific. All breeds are different but above all else they are dogs and you either can be the leader and earn respect of the dog or you can't. The fact that TM's are more independent doesn't doesn't make them impossible to raise in a way that they can trust you and you can trust them.

And yet you keep insisting that we're advocating that TMs are threatening their people and that we say thats a good thing. How does that translate? Plus you keep insisting that OUR approach means the dogs aren't trainable or trustable. Which makes even less sense.

 

[Smokeycat]

Also, your situation doesn't involve any aggression whatsoever so that changes things completely. he doesn't RG the item.......This whole thread was started because the dog stole an item and growled and threatened when the owner tried to take it back....THAT is a whole new situation. Playing is very different. My Magnum is much ike your Jiggers in that he likes to steal socks and see if you will chase him but if you get to him and grab him he will not threaten or growl.

Your right there isn't aggression but that doesn't mean the theory behind it isn't correct or the same. Personally I think you're setting a dog up for additional problems by forcing them into a situation where biting becomes a possibility. I would rather they want to do it.
We clearly disagree and that's alright. Maybe it's because you come at it from a dog training background and mine is cat training. Dogs are much easier in my experience. But from what TM owners describe a TM trains more like a cat than a dog. They have to want to do something, they simply don't care what you want and force tends to be met by force.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Your right there isn't aggression but that doesn't mean the theory behind it isn't correct or the same. Personally I think you're setting a dog up for additional problems by forcing them into a situation where biting becomes a possibility. I would rather they want to do it.
We clearly disagree and that's alright. Maybe it's because you come at it from a dog training background and mine is cat training. Dogs are much easier in my experience. But from what TM owners describe a TM trains more like a cat than a dog. They have to want to do something, they simply don't care what you want and force tends to be met by force.

I normally ignore the mass if online quizes that tell you if you're a long dead princess or fairtale charactor, but I was recently pointed towards one that IDs you as a cat or dog person. According to it I'm 75% cat person. My husband says it explains my taste in dogs

There's a reason TMs and alot of the other primitives are described as cat like!

 

[Smokeycat]

I normally ignore the mass if online quizes that tell you if you're a long dead princess or fairtale charactor, but I was recently pointed towards one that IDs you as a cat or dog person. According to it I'm 75% cat person. My husband says it explains my taste in dogs

There's a reason TMs and alot of the other primitives are described as cat like!

I'm the same way. I'd like to think that if I ever get my TM that I would be prepared but I probably won't be and will end up with my share of frustration during training. That said Monkey still frustrates me on an almost daily basis, Siamese don't train worth a darn.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Big Whoop? Really? LOL Taking the item makes the dog understand that threatening you to get what they want doesn't work. It is a fairly simple concept. I get that the only thing you care about is being right, Ruth but in the end......Our opinions ared our opinions, neither right or wrong.

So then what, you took the item. Big whoop. How does that fix the RGing?


I didn't insist that you are advocating anything. I simply said that a TM is a dog not a mystical unicorn and they need to be trained just like any other dog regardless of their breed specific "quirks" and that any dog that you can't trust is unsafe...PERIOD. I also said that a dog (regardless of breed) should not be allowed to threaten their owner and when a owner cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one. I can post the messages you sent at the beginning of this thread if you would like. You know where you agree with me in a PM but not in the thread? Also, you change your opinion depending on who is part of the thread and what they say. You can't have a debate with someone that doesn't actually believe in anything but changes according to their atmosphere and who is in it. in the end...I will say AGAIN....We can agree to disagree but MY opinion doesn't change according to what the next guy thinks. It is what I truly believe and have proven in my life no matter who agrees or doesn't.

And yet you keep insisting that we're advocating that TMs are threatening their people and that we say thats a good thing. How does that translate? Plus you keep insisting that OUR approach means the dogs aren't trainable or trustable. Which makes even less sense.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Not sure how that ended up in the middle of your comment bubble but here it is again....I didn't insist that you are advocating anything. I simply said that a TM is a dog not a mystical unicorn and they need to be trained just like any other dog regardless of their breed specific "quirks" and that any dog that you can't trust is unsafe...PERIOD. I also said that a dog (regardless of breed) should not be allowed to threaten their owner and when a owner cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one. I can post the messages you sent at the beginning of this thread if you would like. You know where you agree with me in a PM but not in the thread? Also, you change your opinion depending on who is part of the thread and what they say. You can't have a debate with someone that doesn't actually believe in anything but changes according to their atmosphere and who is in it. in the end...I will say AGAIN....We can agree to disagree but MY opinion doesn't change according to what the next guy thinks. It is what I truly believe and have proven in my life no matter who agrees or doesn't

Read more: http://www.mastiff-forum.com/showth...her-in-the-whole-world.../page4#ixzz3GsPIcQNM

Big Whoop? Really? LOL Taking the item makes the dog understand that threatening you to get what they want doesn't work. It is a fairly simple concept. I get that the only thing you care about is being right, Ruth but in the end......Our opinions ared our opinions, neither right or wrong.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I do all of my training with positivity and and work with my dogs so that they want to do things and it works and they are happy.....I am not talking about basic training......My dogs follow commands happily and love to please me......Aggression towards their owner is a much different issue and to me is separate from basic training. You are right....Agreeing to disagree is ok. That is what it is all about.

Your right there isn't aggression but that doesn't mean the theory behind it isn't correct or the same. Personally I think you're setting a dog up for additional problems by forcing them into a situation where biting becomes a possibility. I would rather they want to do it.
We clearly disagree and that's alright. Maybe it's because you come at it from a dog training background and mine is cat training. Dogs are much easier in my experience. But from what TM owners describe a TM trains more like a cat than a dog. They have to want to do something, they simply don't care what you want and force tends to be met by force.

 

[Smokeycat]

My dogs...love to please me

This to me is the critical statement. Most dog breeds were created either as companions or to follow commands as working dogs. Making humans around them happy was important to their survival. Breeds such as the TM were created to be left out on their own and make life and death decision without human input. The desire to make humans happy just wasn't as integral to their survival. Respecting was but not the need to please. It means that finding what motivates that particular animal is more difficult. RGing is a big deal I'm just saying that treating what effectively sounds more like a semi-domesticated breed (much like a domesticated cat) as if they were a traditional domesticated dog is asking for additional trouble.
On a side note; other than size I would rather have a dog with RG than a cat. She was mean and taking the item didn't teach her that I was allowed to take what I wanted it just made her more vicious in her defense.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Actually many dog breeds had to think on their own and fought in wars and such but today they aren't bred for that and there are very few people actually breeding dogs for their original purposes and most of them couldn't even be trained for those purposes anymore. Having said that I want to be clear that I do understand the differences in breeds and the that the TM is a different "beast" so to speak and I am not downplaying that but in the end, regardless of breed, a dog HAS to be able to be trusted by their owner. THEY MUST!! NO DOG SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO THREATEN THEIR OWNER. Noone is going to convince me that it is ok or that they can effectively keep the dog, themselves or others safe. As far as cats...I am totally ignorant. LOL I will just have to take your word for it as I have zero experience but I will tell you this....If I have to choose whether I want to be attacked by a cat or a 150-200 lb. dog...I pick the cat and I say that having seen some serious damage done by those crazy things.

This to me is the critical statement. Most dog breeds were created either as companions or to follow commands as working dogs. Making humans around them happy was important to their survival. Breeds such as the TM were created to be left out on their own and make life and death decision without human input. The desire to make humans happy just wasn't as integral to their survival. Respecting was but not the need to please. It means that finding what motivates that particular animal is more difficult. RGing is a big deal I'm just saying that treating what effectively sounds more like a semi-domesticated breed (much like a domesticated cat) as if they were a traditional domesticated dog is asking for additional trouble.
On a side note; other than size I would rather have a dog with RG than a cat. She was mean and taking the item didn't teach her that I was allowed to take what I wanted it just made her more vicious in her defense.