I feel Like the worst mother in the whole world...

[Rugers-Kris]

Ruth, you have got to be the most wishy washy, argumentative, "need to be right", juvenile person I have ever had a discussion with. I am done. In the end I will say again that noone should ever allow their dogs to threaten them EVER regardless of breed, the age, etc. and that it should be dealt with IMMEDIATELY because we are supposed to be the leader and we are supposed to keep our dogs and others safe and THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN DO THAT IF WE LET THEM THREATEN US!!! Which, for the record, is what I have been saying all along. Note: that my opinion has never changed according to what others agreed with or not. Hopefully since there are a few other respected members that have agreed with that, any person veiwing this will be able to weigh the options.

You are released to get back to googling everthing posted and copying and pasting it into your comments as if it is actual experience. Do have a nice evening.

 

[angelbears]

Good to see ya on the forum Tammy!!!

I'm with Kris. My dogs are not going to growl at me, period! To me that would be the same as if my son called me a bitch to my face. Not going to happen.

Ziva is the only dog that I have ever handled with kid gloves. Boy, do I regret it.

I believe that respect is earned but I also believe you have to demand it or you will get walked on.

As to Hector, there are some psycho dogs(no offense) and you have to deal with those with what ever works for them and you. I was told that with a Fila you have to be firm but gentle. What the hell does that mean. A couple of weeks after we brought Cane home he started attacking the cat. I would gently, verbally correct him. Nope, that got us nowhere. I decided that we were going have to amp it up a bit or bury the cat. Next time, I yelled at him to leave the God Damn cat alone. Actually, we did a lot more than that, time outs, keeping a leash on him so we could correct him, praise......Finally, on the verge of tears, I called his breeder. She told me to put his ass on the ground. I asked what happened to firm but gentle? She said apparently for Cane putting his ass on the ground was firm and gentle. Her point is all dogs are different.

Do what you have to do but you can not let these powerful dogs get the upper hand.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Before I forget, here are the messages you sent to me so that the OP can know what she is really dealing with. I might not always be the popular one but at least I say what I have to say TO people.

"TMmom's not up to doing anything except trading and then training away the resource guarding. She shouldn't have gotten a TM in the first place IMO. The fact that she couldn't even recognize that the dog stealing the same item twice would make the item high value to a dog with known RG problems, and then got freaked out by her dog growling to protect it pretty much confirmed that for me. Not that I needed the confirmation. The pup came from a BYB (who unfortunately appears to be encouraged and supported by one of the BIG names in the breed), and she had no idea (and I think she still doesn't understand) what to expect out of her dog as an adult....."

"Go for it, if I do it I'll alienate her and I'm biting my tongue in hopes that at least when she finally figures out she's over her head I can point her in the right direction and make sure Laufey is cared for properly....not sure my temper will hold out that long, I find myself lacking, more and more, in diplomacy these days, but I'm going to try!"

"Problem is that wasn't done here. You're going to have to back it up and explain how to train it as if this was a pup. Cause I will say Broc's right, if the dog really was serious reaching in at that point would have triggered a bite. Cause once these guys decide they're right you can't force it, you have to work around it to show them they're wrong."

 

[cinnamon roll]

Okay, first and foremost we can all agree to disagree. Second not every dog can be trained using the same method.

Now with that being said, I have been tested by an abused dog 140 german rott that we rescued, I was scared to death. She had taken a remote control and was chewing it when I walked in, I walked over to take it from her and she growled and barred her teeth at me. HELL NO was that happening in my home. I am Alpha and I will not tolerate a dog that will show aggression towards me REGARDLESS of the situation. I took the remote from her and she went for me, lets say that I won that fight. And she never tested me again after that.

I do NOT believe that bribing a dog to give up an item they are not supposed to have. Cause IMO what is that teaching them, I take something I am not allowed to have and then I will get a treat so that I give up the item that I am not supposed to have??? To me that is like your teenage child smacking you in the face cause you told them no, and then offering them money to not do it again.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Right, Kris, by your own statement RGing has the potential to end up with an out of control dog. So you're going to assume that one "lesson" fixes the problem? Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. And if it didn't you've quite possibly made the problem worse by teaching the dog they'll have to actually back up the threat next time. But hey, dog's smart, he learned his lesson, no extra work or precautions needed, right? So next time the kid in the house goes to take the sock that the dog stole....if your right, kid's fine, if you're wrong you just sentenced the dog to death and the kid to a hospital visit. But hey, dog's smart, I can safely assume he learned his lesson.....

 

[Boxergirl]

I can't see any reason that private messages were shared. Actually, it's against the rules on almost every forum I've ever been on - because it's usually hurtful and not helpful. I tend to think private is private for a reason. I bet we'll be lucky to see the OP back again after the way this "discussion" has gone. It seems to have turned into a pissing contest, and that's really a shame because I think valid points were made all around by two people that are very respected on this board. I hope the OP doesn't disappear because there will only be one loser if that happens. And that's Laufey.

 

[broccolini]

Now with that being said, I have been tested by an abused dog 140 german rott that we rescued, I was scared to death. She had taken a remote control and was chewing it when I walked in, I walked over to take it from her and she growled and barred her teeth at me. HELL NO was that happening in my home. I am Alpha and I will not tolerate a dog that will show aggression towards me REGARDLESS of the situation. I took the remote from her and she went for me, lets say that I won that fight. And she never tested me again after that.

This is interesting.

I've never had a dog that resource guarded against humans. Athena had issues with the cat going near her food when she was young, but that was solved easily and without drama using behavior modification/counter conditioning methods. Mostly, tossing good things in her bowl whenever the cat was around. When D'Argo came along, we did the same thing, and it worked fine with him too.

I did a lot of reading about this and dog aggression in general when she was growling at the cat. Trading up/counter conditioning was always the method recommended for resource guarding. Physically confronting the dog and taking the object by force was not. This was all behavioral science material, not just dog training advice. So, that was the method we used and it worked fine.

I think we can all agree on the early puppy stuff. Everyone should get their dogs used to hands being in their mouths, giving things up, all that jazz. I don't think that guarantees you won't end up with a resource guarding dog, though. (I've seen this happen with a friend's dog) And true resource guarders are irrational.

So, for those of you in the 'take the object no matter what' camp, what happens after the incident? If for some reason, your full grown dog decides to guard a sock from you, and you 'win' that sock back, what next? Do you expect it to happen again before the dog gets the point? Do you trust the dog again if it puts up a fight and bites you? What if it guards against someone else? Dogs are not good at generalizing, so how do you add other humans/animals to the 'do not guard against' circle?

The other methods are based on the goal of taking away the impulse to guard things in the first place. Also, it's easy to teach the dog that other people can take stuff because the methods are all really safe. You can include kids, cats, chickens, whatever.

If you just teach the dog that when it guards things, you take them, what does that do for the underlying reasons? Does it not matter? Does the dog automatically assume that *all* humans own the stuff? I get that if the dog thinks all the stuff is *yours*, it will not push you. But what if someone else is watching your dog. Why wouldn't a dog prone to guarding see if he could get away with it when someone else was in charge?

I have many questions, sorry.

 

[cinnamon roll]

I will start a thread in the heated section tomorrow ( getting kids to bed now), I do not want to distract what the OP is asking for here. This is a great topic and I will start a new thread to discuss this further.

 

[Catia]

Sometimes I wonder that too...

But seriously, these dogs demand trickery and finesse. It's like they view themselves as your equal and you have to earn their trust. They don't do stuff just because you want them to, forcing them to do things is likely to create an untrustworthy TM, and bribing them has a lifespan the length of their puppyhood.

^^^^^^This.
I have a SOFT girl, a 1/2 breed at that, but the extents that she will go to are deep.
They think/plan/premeditate.
Took me 2 days to get burrs/hitch-hikers out of her tail.
Took me 2 days to 'out stubborn her'.
I didn't want to stress her over some burrs, but then I had just had it, & she had to trust me, & I had to trust her.
In the end, I got the burrs--but I had to show her each & every piece to 'prove' to her what I was doing. It was exhausting. The entire thing was a long excercise in trust.

I haven't read every post in this thread yet, but it appears to be getting heated.

I think TMmom just needs to start back over with basics & do them several times per day. It may not completely fix resource guarding, but it may make it manageable.

Before this all goes too far, wasn't this the 1st time Laufey growled at her?
And Laufey isn't even 1 yr old.
It's not like this is regular daily behavior, so I have faith she can nip it now--before it becomes a habit, if she uses daily consistant repetition, & starts at the beginning.
It's just that repetition with a TM is a VERY long process.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I was really trying to leave this thread alone but I am going to answer this. I understand why you might say this, however, I feel the OP NEEDS to know that the person that is giving them advice is lying to them. She is being sweet and kind to the OP and then messaging that she shouldn't have the dog and is speaking badly of her. The thing is, I try to put myself in others shoes and if I were here searching for advice because of a situation as serious as this.......I would want someone to be honest with me. Again, I may not always have the popular opinion but I am honest. There is nothing wrong with telling something that they should rehome their dog if it is in the best interest of everyone to include the dog.By "pretending" to think that the OP can handle the situation and giving her advice without being honest, both the OP and the dog are being set up for failure as well as anyone else that may be a part of that life. Is that fair to the OP? To the Dog? I am very passionate about this subject and I will admit it got out of hand. I learned a long time ago that you can't have an actual conversation with a couple people in this forum because they are more concerned with the drama and with being right than they are with the actual issue BUT this sort of thing is big deal and stuff like this is exactly how the dogs end up paying the price for human error and yet another ends up on the "Do not rent to people with these dogs" and the BSL lists. It isn't fair. You don't know me but I hold messages and any private conversations very closely and believe in the trust not being broken, however...These were not messages between two people discussing something ...these were hateful messages from someone that wanted to play the ends against the middle for the drama factor. Again, you may not agree with what I did but I can live with that because I really hope that someone would do the same for me if ever I were in search of answers to a serious isue like that.

I can't see any reason that private messages were shared. Actually, it's against the rules on almost every forum I've ever been on - because it's usually hurtful and not helpful. I tend to think private is private for a reason. I bet we'll be lucky to see the OP back again after the way this "discussion" has gone. It seems to have turned into a pissing contest, and that's really a shame because I think valid points were made all around by two people that are very respected on this board. I hope the OP doesn't disappear because there will only be one loser if that happens. And that's Laufey.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

To the OP....I want to apologize that all of this got out of control and took over your thread. I am very passionate about dogs (As I am sure you may have guessed by now) and I felt the need to say my piece so that you could at least see the other side of things. When a dog threatens their owner for any reason.....It is BAD, VERY BAD and you either need to step up and deal with it or you have to make a decision that allows for your dafety, the safety of your dog and the safety of others.

I apologize if I came off as harsh but I really wasn't trying to but I only know how to be honest, it is who I am and I believe that every one deserves an honest opinion ALWAYS but most especially when dealing with a serious issue.

I wish you the best of luck with Laufey regardless of how you choose to handle it but please take the time to read through the thread and weigh everyones opinions prior to deciding.

 

[Boxergirl]

I was really trying to leave this thread alone but I am going to answer this. I understand why you might say this, however, I feel the OP NEEDS to know that the person that is giving them advice is lying to them. She is being sweet and kind to the OP and then messaging that she shouldn't have the dog and is speaking badly of her. The thing is, I try to put myself in others shoes and if I were here searching for advice because of a situation as serious as this.......I would want someone to be honest with me. Again, I may not always have the popular opinion but I am honest. There is nothing wrong with telling something that they should rehome their dog if it is in the best interest of everyone to include the dog.By "pretending" to think that the OP can handle the situation and giving her advice without being honest, both the OP and the dog are being set up for failure as well as anyone else that may be a part of that life. Is that fair to the OP? To the Dog? I am very passionate about this subject and I will admit it got out of hand. I learned a long time ago that you can't have an actual conversation with a couple people in this forum because they are more concerned with the drama and with being right than they are with the actual issue BUT this sort of thing is big deal and stuff like this is exactly how the dogs end up paying the price for human error and yet another ends up on the "Do not rent to people with these dogs" and the BSL lists. It isn't fair. You don't know me but I hold messages and any private conversations very closely and believe in the trust not being broken, however...These were not messages between two people discussing something ...these were hateful messages from someone that wanted to play the ends against the middle for the drama factor. Again, you may not agree with what I did but I can live with that because I really hope that someone would do the same for me if ever I were in search of answers to a serious isue like that.

I do understand. I am much like you. If I won't say it to your face, I won't say it at all. But I would not have posted the messages publicly. I would have handled it by sending the OP a private message. It felt, to me at least, like more of a slap at Ruth than trying to be helpful to the OP. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I do know that if I were the OP I would I would be upset (and embarrassed) that those messages were shared with the entire forum. Just my opinion.

 

[Boxergirl]

To the OP....I want to apologize that all of this got out of control and took over your thread. I am very passionate about dogs (As I am sure you may have guessed by now) and I felt the need to say my piece so that you could at least see the other side of things. When a dog threatens their owner for any reason.....It is BAD, VERY BAD and you either need to step up and deal with it or you have to make a decision that allows for your dafety, the safety of your dog and the safety of others.

I apologize if I came off as harsh but I really wasn't trying to but I only know how to be honest, it is who I am and I believe that every one deserves an honest opinion ALWAYS but most especially when dealing with a serious issue.

I wish you the best of luck with Laufey regardless of how you choose to handle it but please take the time to read through the thread and weigh everyones opinions prior to deciding.

And I agree with this completely. There's some really good information in this thread. Please stick around and keep asking questions. We're all very passionate about our animals and sometimes that makes us a little crazy.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

It was both...a slap in the face at Ruth and to help the OP. I will not tell a lie. I think sometimes a persons true "self" needs to be exposed for future reference (Considering that she has something to say on nearly every thread and considering that this isn't a first for her) and I was in a position to do it so I did...Right, wrong or otherwise. The OP should not be embarressed at all. She came here with a question and she has lots of answers to mull over now. Like I said, If I were the OP, I would be pissed but she did nothing wrong so I can't imagine why she would feel badly about it otherwise.

I do understand. I am much like you. If I won't say it to your face, I won't say it at all. But I would not have posted the messages publicly. I would have handled it by sending the OP a private message. It felt, to me at least, like more of a slap at Ruth than trying to be helpful to the OP. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I do know that if I were the OP I would I would be upset (and embarrassed) that those messages were shared with the entire forum. Just my opinion.

 

[elastigirl]

Well, I haven't needed to because I took the time to develop the trust and respect with my dogs from the beginning and neither one of them find it acceptable to "bite the hand that feeds them".

So I have been biting my tongue as I read the comments here, but I have to respond to this. I am an inexperienced TM owner (Ivy is 10 months old and my first TM) but I am an experienced dog owner. I have done everything I can to cultivate respect and trust from Ivy, LITERALLY hand-feeding her EVERY SINGLE MEAL from the time she arrived here, going through many obedience classes, training every single day (yes, I have a spreadsheet to track it) and she STILL had resource guarding issues from the age of 9 weeks. In some dogs it is part of their nature. Ivy is doing well now and I have faith that we have this under control (with a lot of help from a trainer experienced with TMs) but I will not be letting my guard down anytime soon. We are always on the lookout for what may be a problem and ready to respond. My point is that there is nothing we did to cause the resource guarding. We did everything to develop trust and respect. And still Ivy had RG issues. So maybe we should not be so quick to judge the OP and instead focus on helping her. I've sent her a message (which I will NOT be copying here) with the name of the trainer we used and just telling her what we did. I'm hopeful that as I work through this thread, there will be more helpful comments and less criticism and self-righteous attitudes.

 

[elastigirl]

I'd just like to say that I find this a bit insulting.

We were very proactive with our dogs and did all the 'trust' and 'respect' stuff with them. I still don't trust Athena not to bite me if I tried to pull some Cesar Milan crap on her. That's just not the kind of dog she is, and I could see that in her when she was ten weeks old.

Some TMs are *never* going to trust you absolutely. That has nothing to do with respect or training. I doubt there is a TM owner on this board that can say their dog cares all that much about what they want it to do.

I did a ton of research before getting a TM. None of it prepares you for the reality of living with one. Reading about how they are independent is not the same as experiencing it. I cannot emphasize enough how unlike 'normal' dogs a TM is. It's like living with a giant cat.

THANK YOU. Yes. I agree with every word.

 

[elastigirl]

There are no resources to guard in my house. They are all mine, the bones, the food, the water, everything belongs to me. Growling to guard anything from me or mine (kids included) will not be accepted. I know what a growl means when they have food or a toy... it means it is mine leave it alone and in my house it is not. It is MINE and if I want it you will throw it at me and be happy about it. I will not risk my kids safety, agree or disagree that is your choice but it is not allowed in my house, my dogs will not become a statistic.

So everyone that keeps saying this, WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU DO with your dogs if/when they growl at you because they have a brand new chew bone (or a water bottle from the recycling container, or the nice smelly sock your kid left out on the lawn even though the kid should know better)? I'm hearing a lot of preaching about what a dog shouldn't be allowed to do, but not a lot of constructive advice or explaining how you handle the situation.

 

[Catia]

... In some dogs it is part of their nature.

I would like to expand on Elastigirl's comment, because it is extremely important to do so.
TM's are a primitive breed. They are not mastiffs by any stretch.
Their sole purpose has always been to guard, & only the toughest survived--by natural selection--25-30 yrs of breeding in the USA isn't going to remove that difference.

Their genetic pool is tens of thousands of years apart (read:isolated)from other dogs.
This isn't a myth, it's a genetic fact.
They were never bred to be any type of companion dog--ever----this is a recent effort in order to preserve the breed as far as my understanding has taken me.
These are difficult dogs, and this is why few people have them, & IMHO-few people should.
In most companion dogs, I do think resource guarding is 'irrational'--but I'm not convinced of this with a TM considering that only recently have they been bred as companion dogs/pets--this is an independent working breed that was kept in the most harsh environments, little oxygen, scant food, horrible terrain & kept alive only for it's ability to guard. The history of this dog is heartwrenching, especially the methods used for thousands of years as acceptable training...
While I do not like at all the thought of resource guarding---I feel there are times where no matter how much you train & condition certain TM's, the instinct may not ever be trained out of that particular dog. I'm thinking there has not yet been enough TIME for a TM's instincts to mellow as a family pet/companion dog in some instances. Not all, but some.

***However, I do not agree that this is the situation with Laufey***
She's young & attempting to rebel & I do think if TMmom puts in the time, this situation can be turned around.
I do think TMmon didn't fully understand what she was getting into with a TM.
Regardless of how that happens--it happens, & the situation is what it is, but it is NOT the end of the road, we are talking about a pup here.

I say this as a person who was smacked upside the head with a TM.
I had zero experience. I DID NOT WANT A TM!!!

---Many of you here helped me--and some of the same ones who helped me had their doubts about whether or not I could actually HANDLE the situation.

---Some of you voiced your doubt directly to me in posts, some vented to others IN PRIVATE Messages & kept their doubts offline--

I've had more than a couple of offers from people who were willing to take Tessa off my hands in the hope of placing her with someone more experienced.

--Everyone here has a different way of handling their stress of when a dog & their owners well being & LIFE lay in the balance.

For me personally, if EVERYONE who doubted me voiced it directly to me, I may have lost the faith in myself to carry it through, & I am a strong person...

I am so very thankful for those of you who kept your doubts OFF of the public forum and just 'bitched amoungst yourselves' privately *while still answering my questions on the forum*--because that is what I came here for--SUPPORT--I had plenty of doubt already.

TMmom came here for help & support. This is a network.
We all have fears & doubts when someone is having issues with their pooch--and many of those doubts are better left in private, because we don't need to be sucking the wind out of someone's sails when they are already at their low point-it's poor taste and counter productive.
We need to attempt to answer their questions in their time of need.

TMmom I hope you're reading & you stay here.
This type of drama usually isn't going on here.
You're not the only one who may've come here 'in over your head'--
I was in over my head too--and I'm still here & doing fine, thanks to the advice I received here & the time I put in as a result.
No one is trying to stab you in the back, or be hateful--People are just worried about what the result is going to be & have different ways of expressing.

sigh--what a mess this is--at this point there's no where to go but up.

 

[Doggyhelpplease]

There is too much reading for me here and I am lazy but read some. I used the behavior modification method with my dog. She only guarded her chicken quarter the first 2 weeks (probably less). The one time I went in like might was right she was hanging from the quarter off the ground still growling at about 9 or 10 weeks old...and I was a bit hesitant and then I was like thinking to myself she is 20-30lbs why be hesitant (They are fisty for pups). The breeder and every behavioral animal work type trainer, I spoke told me to hand feed her and do many trades except for the 2 that trained almost exclusively GS for police and guard etc (different type of dog for sure though I had a GS before too). She has not guarded against my husband or myself since those first 2 weeks and she will offer or drop her stuff for you if you even walk in a room, you can just go touch it while she is chewing etc. She is aloof though so I wouldn't say a stranger could as she really wouldn't want to be pet by one to begin with unless introduced. It took much longer to get her to accept the cat that way but it is at the point they will eat side by side fine and she will not steal the cats food however, the cats barf she loves HAHAH we rush over to clean it but she can hear it from a mile away so its a race (she does not guard it one bit even from the cat but she is nuts for it and follows the cat for more as we clean away that lovely food with the paper towels). My grandmother who is over 80 once didn''t even think and asked my dog to move with her bone by basically picking it up and moving it while she was eating it and my dog just let it go and moved back and sat for it again. If she knows you and you give her treats or food normally you can take anything (though she doesn't eat from strangers or outside the house/yard/moms house)..she can eat right from your lips etc(I do not to this but...husband lol). She is so gentle and even chews something as 1 peanut about 10 times and will lie down to eat it like a lady (because she chewys so much she does make alot of crumbs though). I think this is because she was taught from a young age she doesn't need to guard and she was given high resource meat and fish from a young age that it is really hard to top that. If she had to be taught this at like 1 or 2 years (like a rescue) I am not sure if a more aggressive approach would need to be used by us...just sharing my store of what we did. Our dog has never growled at us for anything else beside those first few times when taking food from her and she is not really a soft TM though she us to be and after about 18 months changed and is very territorial etc. If its a young pup you would probably do better using a softer approach like you don't use a choke or prong or whatever on a 3 month old so you don't teach them about RG as roughly but as they age the lesson is harder to teach and different dogs may need different strategies as their soft but firm is not the same as another dogs soft but firm. A dog that is super hard with strangers can still be soft with its few chosen ones (family) or at least I think so.

 

[chuckorlando]

Late to the party. I dont beat or even hit my dogs as a means of teaching them. You could ruin a Fila being hard. That being said I aint with growling or biting me. I also aint with a dog biting my face at any time though they are free to bite me any place else while playing. Some lessons taught are simply instant. There are some lines that simply need to be understood, you never cross that line.

My hand also goes in all my dogs mouths. I dont care if it was the most awesome steak she ever tasted, I will take it and she aint gonna do nothing. Start that when they are tiny before they can hurt ya.

Most of this is avoidable if we lay down the order of operations when they are tiny. Dont wait to be the boss till a boss is needed