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Harlequin Breedings

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
I’ve been really hesitant about posting this as I do not want to start any sort of conflict. However I feel that most folks here are mature and this forum is quite different from others I’ve been on so….here goes.
I’ve been getting questions in regards to the Harl x Harl breeding. I’m not a genetic expert and I’m not trying to be. I created this thread for those what wanted to have a basic understanding behind the breeding and the controversy surrounding it. Forgive me this is a little long……

Great Danes can come in many color varieties however only 6 colors are recognized by the parent club GDCA, AKC, UKC, FCI, and so forth. “Recognized†in the sense that these are the clubs “approved†colors, for ethical breeding and showing. To keep the lines “pure†the club has adopted a “color code†meaning only certain colors may be breed to one another.
Below is a snippet of the code:
Great Dane Breeders Color Code
(As endorsed by The Great Dane Club of America)
"It shall be the goal of all to breed forward, never backwards, to attain pedigrees of puppies
which have the desired color strains endorsed by the Great Dane Club of America"
There are only six recognized colors; all these basically fall into four color strains:
  • FAWN and BRINDLE
  • HARLEQUIN, MANTLE and HARLEQUIN BRED BLACK
  • BLUE and BLUE BRED BLACK
  • BLACK
Color Classifications being well founded, the Great Dane Club of America, Inc. considers it an inadvisable practice to mix color strains and it is the club's policy to be cognizant of the following breedings:
Color of Dane
Approved Breedings
Desired Pedigrees
1. FAWN

1. BRINDLE
1. FAWN bred to FAWN or BRINDLE only.
1. BRINDLE bred to BRINDLE or FAWN only.
Pedigrees of FAWN or BRINDLE Danes should not carry BLACK, HARLEQUIN or BLUE upon them.
2. HARLEQUIN
2. MANTLE

2. BLACK (HARLEQUIN BRED)
2. HARLEQUIN bred to HARLEQUIN, BLACK from HARLEQUIN BREEDING or BLACK from BLACK BREEDING only.
2. MANTLE bred to HARLEQUIN, MANTLE, BLACK from HARLEQUIN breeding or BLACK from BLACK breeding only.
2. BLACK from HARLEQUIN BREEDING bred to HARLEQUIN, BLACK from HARLEQUIN BREEDING or BLACK from BLACK BREEDING only.
Pedigrees of HARLEQUIN, MANTLE or HARLEQUIN BRED BLACK Danes should not carry FAWN, BRINDLE or BLUE upon them.
3. BLUE


3. BLACK (BLUE BRED)
3. BLUE bred to BLUE, BLACK from BLUE BREEDING or BLACK from BLACK BREEDING only.
3. BLACK from BLUE BREEDING bred to BLUE, BLACK from BLUE BREEDING or BLACK from BLACK BREEDING ONLY.
Pedigrees of BLUE or BLUE BRED BLACK Danes should not carry FAWN, BRINDLE, or HARLEQUIN upon them.
4. BLACK (BLACK BRED)
4. BLACK from BLACK BREEDING bred to BLACK, BLUE or HARLEQUIN and MANTLE. (See note below)
Pedigrees of BLACK BRED Danes should not carry FAWN, BRINDLE, HARLEQUIN, MANTLE or BLUE upon them.

NOTE: Black Bred Great Danes may be bred to Blacks, Blues, Harlequins or Mantles only. Puppies resulting from these breedings will become Blacks, Harlequins from Harlequin breeding or Mantle. (category 2 above). Blacks or Blues from Blue breeding (category 3 above) or Blacks from Black breeding (category 4 above).


When breeding Harlequin you are breeding for PATTERN not color, the ratio of black and white. Second Harlequins are actually a “modified/diluted†form of Merle. A gene in the Harlequin alters the effect of the Merle, thus the large colored regions are removed leaving Harlequin coat pattern we see.

When breeding for Harlequins it is important to understand that Harlequin dogs will produce “mismark†pups, Blacks, Harl, Merle, Merlequin, and White. In order for a dog to produce a Harlequin, genetically speaking the alleles “HhMm†(double heterozygote), must be present.
H=Harlequin
h=non-harlequin
M=Merle
m=solid color
Note: heterozygote= two different alleles for one particular trait. “H†being the dominant trait, “h†recessive trait.
Below examples of different coat patterns of Harlequin and Mantle coat patterns:

diagram.jpg

Below is known as a Piebald pattern, considered a “mismark Mantleâ€. Can result from Harl x Mantle, or Harl x Black ( this pattern is not a recognized color with the GDCA)

piedog.jpg

dog_2848_20100704024909.jpg

All Harlequin dogs carry the Merle allele “Mmhhâ€, thus which is why Harlequin dogs produce Merle. All white dogs are “HhMM†(carries Harl gene) or “hhMM" ( non-carrier for Harl). Dog’s that have a few patches black/merle, usually the lack the necessary pigmentation and thus the dogs can be blind/deaf.

Below from left to right
Desirable quality “Ideal†Harlequin pattern, Merle, and Mantle (sometimes referred to as Boston or Irish)

harlfam.jpg
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Breeding Merle to Merle will never produce a Harlequin, because you need at least one copy of the “H” allele. When Merle to Merle dogs are breed they will produce “double Merle.” (MM) While the pups produced by “double Merle” are “less severe” you still have a high probability of producing a few pups that are deaf/blind……among other things. The “double Merle” also carries genes for “semi lethal”
Now with Harl x Harl breedings the additional “H” in conjunction with the “MM” increases prenatal lethality or “lethal white.” “Lethal” meaning in regards to birth defects, that would either cause them to die prematurely or after birth. Furthermore it is noted that if pups survive through adult hood they are often plague severe often fatal health problems ; From cancers, disfigurements, deaf, blindness, missing organs, seizures, etc.

Below are just a few examples of the outcome from such breedings:



WARNING DISTURBING IMAGES




This sweet girl is the more common severity of a “lethal white” Yes she was born without eyes.

lethalgirl.jpg


You guys have probably seen this sweet dog before. Blind dog Lilly. She is another example of an extreme common case of “lethal whites.” The caretaker decided to have her eyes sewn shut.
lillyletha.jpg

Another dog with the not extreme result. This dog is both deaf and blind. Note that the dog has large visible patches. In conjunction this dog also suffering from Iris Coloboma. Notice the deformed iris.

comolethal.jpg

This dog is not a Great Dane but an Aussie ( who also has Iris Coloboma) caused by Merle x Merle breedings

aussielethal.jpg

Another example of a Dane with Coloboma

lethalboy.jpg
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
If all this is known so then what is the point of a Harl x Harl or Harl x Merle Breeding? The answer: aesthetics….. The idea of this breeding is to produce “show quality†marked Harls. Like these guys below.

showharl2.jpg

showharl.jpg



Keep in mind the percentages of producing a Harl from such a breeding is already diminutive let alone the chances of producing a “show quality†dog. If a breeder even manages to produce one at all…….Now if a breeder is careful they can reduce the severity of deformity in the litter. The GDCA recommendation for producing “show quality†Harlequins is to breed “show quality†Mantles x Harlequin.



There’s plenty of sources on this topic but I thought it would be easier to explain it in with requiring you to have a major in Biology. If you want more in depth it below are a series of sources used.


Sources:
http://www.6stardanes.com/colors.html
http://www.chromadane.com/colordisease.htm
http://www.chromadane.com/HarlFamilyColor.htm
http://www.dogstuff.info/ez_coat_color_genetics_great_dane_yousha.html
http://www.gdca.org/health/deafness.html
http://dolforum.com/forum/
http://www.greatdanecolor.com/Great_Dane_Color/What_Color_Do_Danes_Come_In.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0888754311000164
http://www.dogstuff.info/harle_breeding_banned_in_germany_yousha.html
http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/07/something-is-rotten-in-harlequin-danes.html
http://sierram.angelcities.com/greatdane_genetics.htm


As always if you have any questions please let me know. I'll do my best to answer to the best of my ability.
 

bullyhillmama

Well-Known Member
oh, my.. i think i will need to read this a few times to really digest it.. so much interesting info!!!1 thanks for posting it!!!
 

NeSaxena

Well-Known Member
That was helpful! Thanks DD :)

See, you shouldn't disappear on us - where will we get this knowledge from, then? :p
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Lol, no problem guys. Bullyhill, don't worry its a lot of information. It took me a couple of years to actually understand it and there's still some areas I have questions about. Though that's getting more in depth.

NeSaxena, lol, wouldn't be from me :D Far too many good vets on this forum. I'm just the whippersnapper.
 

Rugers-Kris

Well-Known Member
Thanks, DD. This is very interesting reading. I have read the majority already since I have decided to bring Magnum home and he is a result of this type of breeding. He is still too little yet to know if there are any effects but shortly he will have his eyes open and we should be able to know if there is any visual damage and whether or not he can see. Also, once he gets to moving around, we will be able to see if he can hear as well. Of course, I am hoping for the best but.......He is mine now so we will deal with whatever may come. Depending, of course.

Thank you for sharing. I have caught quite a bit of slack since I made this decision. First, I didn't do the breeding but the end result is that I don't give a damn what anyone else may think of my getting Magnum. I have been told that I must be supporting a backyard breeder and I am wrong for that....I have been told that by showing interest in my little black hearted Magnum, I am supporting breeders to do the harlXharl breeding. You would be amazed at some of the things I have heard. The bottom line is that my decisions are my decisions and I am not one of the "sheep". I do what I feel good about.

LOL. Sorry about getting on my soap box. I do appreciate you sharing the information. :)
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing. I have caught quite a bit of slack since I made this decision. First, I didn't do the breeding but the end result is that I don't give a damn what anyone else may think of my getting Magnum. I have been told that I must be supporting a backyard breeder and I am wrong for that....I have been told that by showing interest in my little black hearted Magnum, I am supporting breeders to do the harlXharl breeding. You would be amazed at some of the things I have heard. The bottom line is that my decisions are my decisions and I am not one of the "sheep". I do what I feel good about.

LOL. Sorry about getting on my soap box. I do appreciate you sharing the information. :)

I'm less than thrilled with the fact that you're getting him, but as long as you understand the potential health risks that he may have, not all of which show up early, its your decision to make.

What pisses me off is that the GDCA essentially requires Harl x Harl breeding.....
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Thanks, DD. This is very interesting reading. I have read the majority already since I have decided to bring Magnum home and he is a result of this type of breeding. He is still too little yet to know if there are any effects but shortly he will have his eyes open and we should be able to know if there is any visual damage and whether or not he can see. Also, once he gets to moving around, we will be able to see if he can hear as well. Of course, I am hoping for the best but.......He is mine now so we will deal with whatever may come. Depending, of course.

Thank you for sharing. I have caught quite a bit of slack since I made this decision. First, I didn't do the breeding but the end result is that I don't give a damn what anyone else may think of my getting Magnum. I have been told that I must be supporting a backyard breeder and I am wrong for that....I have been told that by showing interest in my little black hearted Magnum, I am supporting breeders to do the harlXharl breeding. You would be amazed at some of the things I have heard. The bottom line is that my decisions are my decisions and I am not one of the "sheep". I do what I feel good about.

LOL. Sorry about getting on my soap box. I do appreciate you sharing the information. :)

Thanks Kris, again this was not meant to cause anything......We can't help who we fall in love with. While I don't agree with the practice I most certainly WILL NOT give you grief about your decision. So whoever has been giving you slack needs to SHOVE IT and mind their own business. If they want to go the BYB route then they are certainly turning blind eye to skeletons in those show closets. They won't admit it but as you see these dogs come from show homes as "donations." A piss poor gesture of clearing what conscience they have...Honestly it doesn't surprise me that you would get those responses.

I believe you will give Magnum a VERY good home with Ruger. These guys need homes too and most can do quite well living to a happy old age. Your right Magnum is still young so until he is of older age his disabilities are as good as anyone's guess, if he may even have them. However no matter what the outcome is with Magnum, LOVE him no matter what. Which I'm sure you will, lol.

Already on the right track :) Go Girl! LOL If you need any help just let me know. I can provide you more links in regards to training just in case.
 

Rugers-Kris

Well-Known Member
Thanks, DD. Yeah, people really do like to mind business that isn't theirs but I am a waste of their time because there is only one person that I HAVE to go to bed with everynight and wake up to every morning and that is me. I can look myself in the face and like what I see ......I do what I think is right and that is just the way it is.

Training is definitely something I have been thinking about considering I have never owned a GD. I am not sure how different they are in terms of "learning" than say the APBT or the EM. Maybe they are somewhere in the middle and it won't be as difficult as I think! LOL

I will be totally lost in the event the little man is deaf or blind......OH MY! I will be pulling some serious late night google/youtube sessions if that happens!
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
I'm less than thrilled with the fact that you're getting him, but as long as you understand the potential health risks that he may have, not all of which show up early, its your decision to make.

What pisses me off is that the GDCA essentially requires Harl x Harl breeding.....

Ruth are you going to help pay the rest for Magnum? Why are you "less than thrilled?" Its DONE....she should be able to enjoy her dog without justifying her reasons.

You and me both, but you can't fill a cup that's already full. As it stands the FCI is in the works actually trying to enforce the ban of the matings. Some speculate this would harm the pool of the Harlequin line. I don't know that much about the current gene pool of the Harlequin, but I will say next to the fawn there seems to be a lot of Harlequin breeders so it can't be that small as they are making it out to be. But again I don't know.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Why are you less than thrilled? Just curious as to why.

Well, I totally believe you'll give him an awesome home with the best care, so thats not the problem.

Deliberate Harl x Harl breeding pisses me off. Its humans deliberetly picking a breeding that they KNOW is going to result in screwed up dogs, so that they can get the pretty pattern that "everyone wants". One of the links DD gave has a chart breaking down the chances of actual lethal mutation, vs mutation that the dog can survive, vs health dogs but without the wanted pattern, vs healthy dogs with the wanted pattern from a Harl x Harl breeding and the chances of a healthy dog with the wanted pattern is less than 50% if I recall right (I want to say less than 30% but I'm not looking at the link right now).