Great Dane - dog aggression

[cj-sharpy]

Wow. Lots to take in here as lots of differing opinions. But j think that's best so people can cherry pick what works for them.
As for can't hear the click when
Barking I thing the point that who ever was trying to make is if they react they won't hear the click cos there won't be a click. Look at dog, good, click, treat. Dog learns that the sight of dogs is a good thing. Look at dog, lunge, bark etc no click no treat. Dog learns that reacting has gained him nothing.
I hope I'm getting this right cos we are starting clicker training tomorrow. Not for any reason other than something to keep his brain busy in days that he can't face a walk.
If it turns out we can use it right then maybe it could be good for walks too.
But I'll still use corrections. They have worked well so far combined with treats and affection for good behaviour.

Look at dog, turn to me when called = treat.
Focus on dog, don't respond when called = a pop on the lead and no treat.


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[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Princelord, thanks for your question. Questions are always good. The click is never, ever used as a correction.

To give an example of another dog who i am working with. The dog, let's call him Bert, barks all the time, and I mean all the time. When he draws breath, in that instant when he is quiet, I click and offer the treat. I do this over and over again, eventually the dog starts thinking "Hey, what gets me that treat? I think it might be when I'm quiet." which is exactly what I want him to think. He then starts offering quiet behaviour. Initially, we catch the behaviour as it happens, then the dog works out what is making the click/treat cycle happen. Then we mark 2 seconds of quiet, 4 seconds, 10 seconds etc.

At the start, we catch anything we like. There are three reinforcible behaviours with Drako

1. Look at the dog
2. Look at the dog and look at me
3. Keep looking at me in the presence of the other dog.

Drako will learn over time, dogs mean good things happen, and we change how he feels about it i.e less frightened = less reactive.

The only thing with the Leerburg article is that it's not a great exampearn from Kay Laurence or Kathy Sdao.

 

[Boxergirl]

^^^What he said!^^^

Thank you, I wasn't explaining very well at all.

 

[Hector]

What Glasgow is doing here is called behavior modification. The dog originally lunges and barks at the sight of dogs. By using distance, the stimulus of the trigger is lessened so the dog is less likely to react. When the dog is less likely to react, stress levels are lower and allows the dog to learn and make better choices like looking, being calm, hang out, pay attention to handler, etc. That's why you see in the video when the dog started reacting, the trainer moved the dog away from the trigger to create more distance before continuing the conditioning process. A clicker (same concept when you use a marker word such as "yes" is used as a tool of communication telling the dog the moment it does something desirable and the reward reinforces the behavior you want which is non reactivity/attention. The goal is to change the way the dog feels when it sees other dogs. Once you build up a higher tolerance, you would increase one criteria at a time like decreasing the distance, adding more dogs, add more movement, etc. You make these modifications based off of the dog's comfort level. Over time, the clicker and food will no longer be needed and you continue to have a dog that is no longer reactive.

 

[Hector]

A clicker/marker is a great tool to shape different behaviors. You can teach a dog complex tricks by using the marker system. It is very effective and a lot of fun.

 

[PrinceLorde13]

Thank you it just "clicked" for me, sorry for the corny pun makes better sense now

 

[Hector]

Here's a video of a trainer that uses a lot of e-collar for behavior modification on aggressive dogs. Even he loves clicker training, but he does say that he only uses it on his own dogs. He gives a basic explanation and demos the power of the clicker.


[video=youtube;izo8TaHFG3Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izo8TaHFG3Y[/video]

 

[Nik]

I only use verbal markers with training mostly because I am completely inept with clicker use. I have trouble clicking and can never do it fast enough to make a difference so I gave up on using clickers. Too bad though because I always see these awesome training videos where they use them. But I suppose if you have a verbal sound or word you consistently use to mark it ought to be the same effect.

 

[karennj]

I use "yes" instead of a clicker just because I cannot be bothered to remember where the clicker is or to bring it with me. I have 3 young kids, I always have my mouth. The benefit I do see with the clicker is training with the kids. They cannot make "yes" sound the same as me.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

An easier way to explain it

Click/verbal marker followed by something good means "Do more of that behaviour"

Corrections (which needs to be occasionally followed by something to back it up) means do less of that behaviour.

 

[cj-sharpy]

Max did his first half hour of clicker training yesterday and he picked up hand targeting straight away, with a second 20 min session later on he assosiated a whistle with come touch my hand, I've been trying to teach recall for month and this is closest he's come so far.
We are sticking with it, its great fun.

How would I go about complex tricks, im thinking go open the fridge and fetch me a beer haha

 

[Hector]

Max did his first half hour of clicker training yesterday and he picked up hand targeting straight away, with a second 20 min session later on he assosiated a whistle with come touch my hand, I've been trying to teach recall for month and this is closest he's come so far.
We are sticking with it, its great fun.

How would I go about complex tricks, im thinking go open the fridge and fetch me a beer haha

That's what my bf does with Hector and his recall. He puts out his hand and says "here". When teaching complex tricks, you have to break it down into individual tricks and then chain it together.

For opening the fridge and fetching a beer.

The dog will need to learn how to :

-open fridge door
-close fridge door if you care
-hold beer without puncturing it lol
-retrieve beer

 

[Hector]

Max did his first half hour of clicker training yesterday and he picked up hand targeting straight away, with a second 20 min session later on he assosiated a whistle with come touch my hand, I've been trying to teach recall for month and this is closest he's come so far.
We are sticking with it, its great fun.

How would I go about complex tricks, im thinking go open the fridge and fetch me a beer haha

I apologize for taking this off topic, but cj-sharpy, here's a vid

[video=youtube;JLuazjSGJEQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuazjSGJEQ[/video]

 

[SG1]

Come on forum members don't follow the bright shiny object Glasgowdogtrainer is showing you in one hand and not watching the other hand. Look behind the curtain and see what is really going on.

The real question that should be asked is will this clicker training work on a real dog. No disrespect to GD owners but the GD of today is not the dog it may have once been.

Glasgowdogtrainer out of all of the tousands of dogs you claim to have trained the best video of your abilities and methods was of a GD?
Sorry but I'm not impressed yet. Let the members see you and the other trainers in the posted videos work real dogs with your methods. How about using a dog aggressive akita, dogo, fila, boerboel. Unless these types of dogs are too difficult. It's ok, I've been telling the members for months everybody can't make the leap from ordinary dog to Superior Guardians. Every video posted that does not depict SGs just proves my point.

I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I just want a real world trainer to use the real world dogs that we all have in real world situations.

Peace

 

[season]

Come on forum members don't follow the bright shiny object Glasgowdogtrainer is showing you in one hand and not watching the other hand. Look behind the curtain and see what is really going on.

The real question that should be asked is will this clicker training work on a real dog. No disrespect to GD owners but the GD of today is not the dog it may have once been.

Glasgowdogtrainer out of all of the tousands of dogs you claim to have trained the best video of your abilities and methods was of a GD?
Sorry but I'm not impressed yet. Let the members see you and the other trainers in the posted videos work real dogs with your methods. How about using a dog aggressive akita, dogo, fila, boerboel. Unless these types of dogs are too difficult. It's ok, I've been telling the members for months everybody can't make the leap from ordinary dog to Superior Guardians. Every video posted that does not depict SGs just proves my point.

I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I just want a real world trainer to use the real world dogs that we all have in real world situations.

Peace

Well said. Everything looks good through rose colored glasses. Dog's need to be corrected at times. Some more than others. But to those that don't believe in corrections automatically go to extremes and use words like, hit and kick etc or go to their most hated rival, Cesar Millan, and act like he is Charles Manson or something.

 

[cj-sharpy]

I might be wrong, God knows I've made enough mistakes with Max but rehabbing a dog trained for aggression I've done as tried most things I've seen or read about. (Both things Glasgow would like and stuff Season would like)
For behaviour you want more off positive training is great. Sit, stay, roll over what ever it may be then lots of praise and treats and showing him these things are good to do because they make me happy and make his world better.
However, for things I didn't want, biting, lunging, aggressively defending his space, instant rage around certain scents, I found corrections worked. He wasn't going to not attack "that" scent because I gave him treats if he didn't. But he learnt that if he got anywhere near that state of mind he'd get a correction.
That correction in time gave me the gap I needed to reward calm behaviour.
So I'd say corrections and positive reinforcement can work hand in hand.


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[season]

And that's why I like the term balanced training. I use corrections...I use praise...I use markers....It's not hard in my opinion.

I would love to see the all positive approach in a real world setting instead of a staged video setting. All dogs at some point will need to be corrected when that treat isn't quite as interesting as the distraction. Let me see an all positive vid on that real world scenario. I like reading about what Glasgow has to say and also enjoy our debates through PM....so for me this isn't personal it's just a difference in philosophy. I would love to see a vid of him doing this "no corrections" training in a uncontrolled setting and see how that plays out with a clicker and no corrections. Maybe even a dog he hasn't worked with before....I'm just not buying it. However, I've seen videos of other trainers that use a balanced approach that involve using corrections in real world world setting, where it wasn't controlled.

 

[Hector]

I have confidence in Glasgow's work.

 

[cj-sharpy]

I can safely say that Max wouldn't have made it if not for corrections. I was loosing the battle with him to the point of being in tears wanting confirmation he was beyond help and PTS was the answer. I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Then I started watching Cesar videos and realized loving him as being nice wasn't going to help. He can know he's loved but he had to realize that misbehaving consequences.
Now he's a good boy we are using clicker and positive training to build on those foundations.


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[season]

I have confidence in Glasgow's work.

That's great, the best thing is to find something that works for you and your dog.