I feel Like the worst mother in the whole world...

[Rugers-Kris]

Which is what I am saying should be done from the very minute you bring them home.

I am not sure how one would go about the situation with a dog 1 yr, as opposed to a puppy, as I have never been in that situation.

But for me, in learning about TM's guarding instinct, I upped 'mouth play' with Tessa as a pup. And I mean to such a level where it is part of our every day routine, just a fact of life-she's not known my hands not to be there.

Never a day goes by where I do not have my hands in her mouth-or food bowl, because I never want her to NOT give something back. When she was a pup & eating several times per day, this meant every feeding--several times per day. This also meant toys & treats.
There are times where I have to pry things from her mouth--dead birds, gross things she picks up on walks, ...cat toys...I do not trade up, I don't believe in it, but that being said, I never had to deal with the situation with a full grown dog of my own.
She will wait to eat, she will give up a treat, & the repetition has been life long daily for her, so she's never known any different.

I hear what you are saying but you can't "train" not to resource high value items using low value items but that might work eventually MAYBE and maybe my matter of fact "I am taking it NOW" doesn't work for everyone but in the end, I stand by my initial statement. I will not tolerate my dog growling at or threatening me for any reason. Training is good but in the end if you allow your dog to threaten you to keep an item, you can expect it again. Sure a bite of human is more than just resource guarding but an out of control dog with no leader can and will get there so it is all relevant, Don't you think?

You train, or re-train if need be, a drop it, a leave it, and/or a give me command. A dog with a strong leave it and/or drop it isn't going to resource guard the item. And yah, that training requires rewards at least in the initial stages.

And you also sit down with the dog and, starting with low value items, show them that in a non-stressfull situation letting you take something from them results in good things (be it treats or praise or whatever works best for the dog). Then you work your way up to higher and higher value items, in non-stressfull non-frantic situations where no one's adrenaline is going and show the dog that even high value items don't need to be guarded cause good things happen when they let you take it.

Oh, and I gotta agree with Hector, if the dog is resource guarding a bite of human you have bigger problems than RGing to deal with....

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Thank you. That is what I have been saying all along. There are thousands of ways to handle thousands of situations with your dogs but IMO when it comes to them threatening you.....THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY.

I could not of said it better myself Kris. I REFUSE to bribe my dog to give me something they are NOT supposed to have. Now if they give it to me when I ask then yes I will treat them. But if they want to "argue" about handing it over it is not gonna turn out in their favor. I am Alpha end of story no compromise.

Absolutely!!!! I can work with a lot of stuff but I will NOT allow my dogs to growl/threaten me EVER for any reason.

In my house your growl at mama over anything and shit is about to get real!

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Absolutely!!!! I can work with a lot of stuff but I will NOT allow my dogs to growl/threaten me EVER for any reason.

I have two young girls in my house and they mean more to me than anything. I could not chance it and will not chance it.

 

[cinnamon roll]

My dogs are molested and tested from the day the come home. From pulling ears, to hand in the food bowl, taking away the highest value treats/toys, paws messed with etc. I need to know that my family is safe and that I can trust my dog.

 

[broccolini]

I have two young girls in my house and they mean more to me than anything. I could not chance it and will not chance it.

So you don't think that if you correct a dog for growling at kids, it will only teach it to not growl at the kids? Whatever the underlying reason for that growl was will still be there. It makes more sense to me to keep the growl as a warning and work on whatever is causing them to growl. Otherwise, the dog will still not like whatever the thing was and the next time, it might go straight to a bite.

Correcting a growl seems less safe to me. I don't doubt that it works to make the dog not growl, but I wouldn't really trust the dog just because it didn't growl.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that you shouldn't let growling 'work'. I just think that 'because I said so' will not fly with a TM. If Athena growled at me over something, I'd work real hard at finding a creative way of working on that.

 

[broccolini]

My dogs are molested and tested from the day the come home. From pulling ears, to hand in the food bowl, taking away the highest value treats/toys, paws messed with etc. I need to know that my family is safe and that I can trust my dog.

Yes, this should happen to all dogs. I don't think it guarantees you might not run into a problem later. I've been working with Athena on her nails since the day she came home. She still wants to kill me.

 

[ruthcatrin]

You all are missing the point now.

Absolutely this all SHOULD be done from day one. And I've never understood how ANYONE gets through the teething stages without teaching a solid leave it and drop it. Much less the basic bomb proofing of hands in mouth etc. But TMmom isn't the first one I've seen who hasn't, so regardless of what I think of it, it has to be coped with with a more adult dog.

And regardless of how you deal with the growl (though punishing it really is about the worst thing you can do, possibly only 2nd than giving in to it, crate the worked up dog sure, punish no, particularly when the dog hasn't been taught right in the first place), you then have to fix the problem that caused the growl in the first place.

For RGing you start back at the basics of "you let me take this and I"ll give that", low value, no guarding, reinforce the concept with zero problems and lots of happy reinforcement, just like you would if they were 9 weeks old and you're teaching them that hands in their stuff is a good thing, and yes, treats and rewards and what are bribes no matter what the trainers want to call it. Workup to higher value items, use the inpromtto "dog grabbed a sock" to reinforce further with treats for swapping and reinforcing the "I really wanted that sock but I got something for giving it up". Combine with drop it and leave it training so that it all works together. So that when the dog grabs the poisonous thing they don't argue with you, wasting time by avoiding you or trying to gulp it before you can grab them, and instead drop it on command because you told them too and they know there's a very good chance they're going to be rewarded for it.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

My grandchildren come over all of the time so I feel the same way. My boys are spoiled rotten and I am the crazy dog lady BUT I male the rules and they know that. I will not be threatened by my dogs for any reason ever.

I have two young girls in my house and they mean more to me than anything. I could not chance it and will not chance it.

I have went above and beyond to make my boys bomb proof to babies, shrieks, things dropping, being pet while they sleep and all of the things you hear about that make dogs "snap".......I think the most responsible thing I can do for my dogs is be their leader and that can't be done if they are making the rules. Mine have me trained well as far as treats, chews, peanut butter sandwiches, what time we have to go to bed, being squished on the couch, etc. BUT they respect and trust me and they do know their limits.

My dogs are molested and tested from the day the come home. From pulling ears, to hand in the food bowl, taking away the highest value treats/toys, paws messed with etc. I need to know that my family is safe and that I can trust my dog.

Have you considered that fact that she is feeding off of your anxiety or lack of trust for her?

Yes, this should happen to all dogs. I don't think it guarantees you might not run into a problem later. I've been working with Athena on her nails since the day she came home. She still wants to kill me.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I am not missing the point at all, Ruth. We are discussing what we do with puppies for information purposes but I am saying that your dog should never threaten you and if they are because you are going to take something....TAKE IT ANYWAY!!! Regardless of how old they are........They should never be allowed to threaten you and win. There is a difference between a bribe and a reward. Bribe: Give me that and I will give you this Reward: You gave it to me when asked...Good Boy. The reward isn't presented at all until the process is already complete. Big difference IMO. The reality is that you can not train a dog to not resource guard a high value item using lower value items or what you might think are higher value. We all know that a high value item could be anything at any time...Like fish food or a stolen sock. Maybe the dog is resource guarding because it knows it "stole" it? Resource Guarding IMO is something that has to be dealt with in the moment.

You all are missing the point now.

Absolutely this all SHOULD be done from day one. And I've never understood how ANYONE gets through the teething stages without teaching a solid leave it and drop it. Much less the basic bomb proofing of hands in mouth etc. But TMmom isn't the first one I've seen who hasn't, so regardless of what I think of it, it has to be coped with with a more adult dog.

And regardless of how you deal with the growl (though punishing it really is about the worst thing you can do, possibly only 2nd than giving in to it, crate the worked up dog sure, punish no, particularly when the dog hasn't been taught right in the first place), you then have to fix the problem that caused the growl in the first place.

For RGing you start back at the basics of "you let me take this and I"ll give that", low value, no guarding, reinforce the concept with zero problems and lots of happy reinforcement, just like you would if they were 9 weeks old and you're teaching them that hands in their stuff is a good thing, and yes, treats and rewards and what are bribes no matter what the trainers want to call it. Workup to higher value items, use the inpromtto "dog grabbed a sock" to reinforce further with treats for swapping and reinforcing the "I really wanted that sock but I got something for giving it up". Combine with drop it and leave it training so that it all works together. So that when the dog grabs the poisonous thing they don't argue with you, wasting time by avoiding you or trying to gulp it before you can grab them, and instead drop it on command because you told them too and they know there's a very good chance they're going to be rewarded for it.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

There are no resources to guard in my house. They are all mine, the bones, the food, the water, everything belongs to me. Growling to guard anything from me or mine (kids included) will not be accepted. I know what a growl means when they have food or a toy... it means it is mine leave it alone and in my house it is not. It is MINE and if I want it you will throw it at me and be happy about it. I will not risk my kids safety, agree or disagree that is your choice but it is not allowed in my house, my dogs will not become a statistic.

 

[broccolini]

Have you considered that fact that she is feeding off of your anxiety or lack of trust for her?

I guess if I hadn't been working with her since she was a puppy, I'd consider that more likely. I am pretty good at reading her body language so I don't think I'm anxious. I know how far I can go before she escalates her behavior.

I mean we all like to say that our dogs feed of our anxieties, which, ok, they probably do. But nobody ever uses that in reverse. I'm not worried about other dogs on our walks, but Athena still is. So why don't we think they should sense our non-anxiety too? That's just a tangent, really. Probably has nothing to do with the rest of the thread.

 

[ruthcatrin]

There are no resources to guard in my house. They are all mine, the bones, the food, the water, everything belongs to me. Growling to guard anything from me or mine (kids included) will not be accepted. I know what a growl means when they have food or a toy... it means it is mine leave it alone and in my house it is not. It is MINE and if I want it you will throw it at me and be happy about it. I will not risk my kids safety, agree or disagree that is your choice but it is not allowed in my house, my dogs will not become a statistic.

But you've taught them that from day 1. Which is the right thing to do. I can't believe that if one of your dogs DID suddenly start to RG you'd completely ignore the RG, to punish the growl, and assume that fixed the problem.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I am not missing the point at all, Ruth. We are discussing what we do with puppies for information purposes but I am saying that your dog should never threaten you and if they are because you are going to take something....TAKE IT ANYWAY!!! Regardless of how old they are........They should never be allowed to threaten you and win. There is a difference between a bribe and a reward. Bribe: Give me that and I will give you this Reward: You gave it to me when asked...Good Boy. The reward isn't presented at all until the process is already complete. Big difference IMO. The reality is that you can not train a dog to not resource guard a high value item using lower value items or what you might think are higher value. We all know that a high value item could be anything at any time...Like fish food or a stolen sock. Maybe the dog is resource guarding because it knows it "stole" it? Resource Guarding IMO is something that has to be dealt with in the moment.

When you're starting training the reward IS a bribe, it has to be or you'll never get through to them. The very very start of baby steps basics of training is to find SOMETHING, ANYTHING, you can reward, no matter how little, to teach them that doing what you want gets them something good. You bribe them into the concept of listening to you, and then you reduce the bribe to a true reward, and then you reduce the reward so that you don't have to have crumbly smelly pockets for your dog's entire life. And yes I believe in negative reinforcement too, you didn't do what I wanted, so the result you got wasn't enjoyable, but if you don't first teach the dog the RIGHT thing to do negative reinforcement isn't going to fix it.

And sure you can. The only requirement is that the reward be of equal or better value than what you're giving up.

Baby steps. I'll give you this handfull of kibble if you stop chewing on my hand. I'll give you this chew for that bit of kibble. I'll give you this treat for that chew. I'll give you this bone for not taking the treat till I said you could. I"ll give you this high value treat for dropping that bone when I gave the command. It proofs the cycle and the concept in the dogs mind. So that when you work your way up to the really really high value stuff the habit and concept is solid and you can actually assume the dog already knows the process. Demanding the dog release a high value item without ensuring they know the concept just leads to failure, if not at first then eventually. Especially with a dog who doesn't really give a shit if you're in charge or not.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

AMEN!!!!

There are no resources to guard in my house. They are all mine, the bones, the food, the water, everything belongs to me. Growling to guard anything from me or mine (kids included) will not be accepted. I know what a growl means when they have food or a toy... it means it is mine leave it alone and in my house it is not. It is MINE and if I want it you will throw it at me and be happy about it. I will not risk my kids safety, agree or disagree that is your choice but it is not allowed in my house, my dogs will not become a statistic.

Maybe she is just pushing to get it over with...it is all a part of the "plan" she escalates when she wants ou to stop and it works. Personall, I would throw that muzzle on and clip her nails...all of them. confident and matter of fact and then when they are done..Throw a party and give her a unique chew of some sort something that is a one sitting chew but more than just a one bite treat. Do it once a week come hell or high water and I would be willing to bet that she will realize that it is going to get done regardless and start to associate it with postive stuff like that one chew she only gets after she gets her nails trimmed. Even if you are not anxious, you are contemplating how far you can get before she escalates....Maybe she still feels like she is winning in her own wa because you CAN read her and when she says "No more" you say...OK.

I guess if I hadn't been working with her since she was a puppy, I'd consider that more likely. I am pretty good at reading her body language so I don't think I'm anxious. I know how far I can go before she escalates her behavior.

I mean we all like to say that our dogs feed of our anxieties, which, ok, they probably do. But nobody ever uses that in reverse. I'm not worried about other dogs on our walks, but Athena still is. So why don't we think they should sense our non-anxiety too? That's just a tangent, really. Probably has nothing to do with the rest of the thread.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Basic training isn't all about the bribe. For instance, I take things from my puppies when I bring them home...They are chewing on a toy and I say "Give me that", "Let me have it" in a happy voice and I take it...Then I say "Good job"...No bribe no treat...I took the toy and they reacted correctly and I told them they did good. If you made the mistake of not training when they were young as the OP did then when they push, you have to push back. Sure it could be risky but again...I make the rules, they don't and I will not live with a dog that I can't trust and I will not give them that kind of power. You can either do it or someone else in your family might pay that price......Without even seeing it coming. YOUR dog, YOUR responsibility.......So, IMO you have to nip it immediately. There are tons of things we train our dogs for that we have all of the time in the world to get to BUT this isn't one of them. When a visitor or relative or other pet reach over to pick something up and your dog attacks because they believe they are allowed .......Somebody could be killed or hurt and your dog ends up being put to sleep because YOU were too afraid to deal with YOUR dog. I don't see how that is a risk anyone would be willing to take. I don't care what breed we are discussing either you are the leader or the follower. Trust and respect is what it is about both of which are earned by you and your dog...regardless of the breed. If what ou are telling me is that TM's are not capable of being trained or understanding the hierarchy of the household or that they are out of control maniacs then I wonder why anyone would want one. I don't believe that, however, I do believe that every breed has their own quirks and that there are breeds that are harder to work with than others but not one that just can't be trusted if you put the time and effort into it. But that is just me.

When you're starting training the reward IS a bribe, it has to be or you'll never get through to them. The very very start of baby steps basics of training is to find SOMETHING, ANYTHING, you can reward, no matter how little, to teach them that doing what you want gets them something good. You bribe them into the concept of listening to you, and then you reduce the bribe to a true reward, and then you reduce the reward so that you don't have to have crumbly smelly pockets for your dog's entire life. And yes I believe in negative reinforcement too, you didn't do what I wanted, so the result you got wasn't enjoyable, but if you don't first teach the dog the RIGHT thing to do negative reinforcement isn't going to fix it.

And sure you can. The only requirement is that the reward be of equal or better value than what you're giving up.

Baby steps. I'll give you this handfull of kibble if you stop chewing on my hand. I'll give you this chew for that bit of kibble. I'll give you this treat for that chew. I'll give you this bone for not taking the treat till I said you could. I"ll give you this high value treat for dropping that bone when I gave the command. It proofs the cycle and the concept in the dogs mind. So that when you work your way up to the really really high value stuff the habit and concept is solid and you can actually assume the dog already knows the process. Demanding the dog release a high value item without ensuring they know the concept just leads to failure, if not at first then eventually. Especially with a dog who doesn't really give a shit if you're in charge or not.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Cool, so 7 weeks old and you snatch things out of their mouths before they even know what "good job" means? Nice training tool....

 

[broccolini]

If what ou are telling me is that TM's are not capable of being trained or understanding the hierarchy of the household or that they are out of control maniacs then I wonder why anyone would want one.

Sometimes I wonder that too...

But seriously, these dogs demand trickery and finesse. It's like they view themselves as your equal and you have to earn their trust. They don't do stuff just because you want them to, forcing them to do things is likely to create an untrustworthy TM, and bribing them has a lifespan the length of their puppyhood.

I'll try putting a muzzle on my dog and clipping all her nails at once to see if she learns to just accept it. But, my instinct is to just keep doing a couple at a time and parting on friendly terms, because I think she might just kill me in my sleep sometime when I'm not expecting it.

That's a joke. I don't think she'll kill me in my sleep.

She'll probably poison my coffee.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Ruth, You ran out of ways to pretend to know the answer or effectively debate the topic so you turn to nastiness? Not surprising, however, At no time did I say I snatch things out of their mouth. I said I use the phrases "Give me that" and "let me have it" and do it with a HAPPY voice and then praise after I take it. THAT is called training. Keep in mind I am not the one sitting on a forum saying that I can't trust my dog or that I have to be careful around my own dog or using excuses like breed to explain why I can't do what needs to be done with my dogs before you decide to attempt to insult by changing the wording of what I said. My dogs are raised in a house full of love and everything a dog could hope for but they are TRAINED and CAN be trusted because it is my responsibility to do that for them. They trust me and respect me enough to not even consider trying to pull rank by threatening me so I would say I am doing alright.

Also, Are you saying that you don't start using "Good Boy" or "Good job" the moment yoou bring your dogs home? Like for house training, learning sit........Nothing? The know that Good job is a positive because I use a happy voice and pet them and let them know that it is.......Also, Ruger was 6 weeks when I started it not 7 weeks and Magnum was 8 weeks.

Do you only start training with words your brand new puppy alread knows? What are the words you use? How did your dogs already know all of them before they came home?

Also, if a breeder is worth anything I should hope that they have used "Good Boy", "Good Girl", "Good Job" on more than one occasion before they sent their puppies to new homes.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I have read and researched them and actually spent hours talking to Tammy about Mooshi and TM's in general so I do believe that they are a "harder" breed (assuming you don't have an unusually soft TM) and I am sure they require more work than some other breeds so I am not arguing that, I am simply saying that I do believe for a second the a TM isn't capable of being trusted by their owner or having trust and respect for their owner.

As for clipping her nails, you should go with what you feel is right. You asked what I thought and I told you but if you aren't comfortable with it, you really shouldn't do it.

Sometimes I wonder that too...

But seriously, these dogs demand trickery and finesse. It's like they view themselves as your equal and you have to earn their trust. They don't do stuff just because you want them to, forcing them to do things is likely to create an untrustworthy TM, and bribing them has a lifespan the length of their puppyhood.

I'll try putting a muzzle on my dog and clipping all her nails at once to see if she learns to just accept it. But, my instinct is to just keep doing a couple at a time and parting on friendly terms, because I think she might just kill me in my sleep sometime when I'm not expecting it.

That's a joke. I don't think she'll kill me in my sleep.

She'll probably poison my coffee.

 

[ruthcatrin]

It makes as much sense as insisting that because I actually have to put thought, time, and energy into training my dog that makes my dog completely untrainable. Which is what you DID say. Which also pretty much makes this whole arguement a moot point because you're never going to understand what I'm saying.

Seriously, if Ruger and Magnum and your previous pits were so people driven as to happily do whatever you wanted even at a very young age, without the consideration of a reward beyond a happy voice, then consider yourself lucky. And never ever ever get a TM or other LGD type......