I wanna stud my male douge de bourdueax

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Ok..first...i wanna breed my male becuase he looks to be a perfect specimin of a bordeaux, of course i am partial to him
second...i have witnessed some results of bad breeding standards, and i want to carry on his good stock.
Third...if any of you think one minute, that yall are breeding these dogs out of the goodness of your heart with no monitary gains in mind, you are all liars!!
If that were the case you'd be selling them for way less than $2,500-$3,000

my original post was to ask the proper steps and procedures one should take in studding my akc french mastiff, not looking for any moral advise as to if i were doing this for the right reasons, who are any of you to judge, i have a beautiful animal, with good health, and with what i have read, he is within specs with above breed standards.

Big Tanc are you familiar with kennel blindness? If not if you want to be a breeder I believe it would be a good interest to become familiar with the term.

Real breeders breed dogs out of the "goodness of their heart" because the CARE about their breed. When breeding the idea is to IMPROVE the line and strengthen the pool. There are far too many people breeding their dog because it is the "perfect" specimen. The questions asked above are questions you may encounter when you stud him out. To find the right stud for their bitch they want to know what makes the DDB better than the 100 or 1000's out there?

Truth be told there is NO monetary gain from breeding when you add up all the costs involved from testing, showing, performance, travel fees, stud, vet fees, etc you'd be very luck to break even if at all.

We are giving you the "proper steps" you need to asses your boy have him tested prove he's worthy of being a stud. Work him, show him, have him temp tested and HEALTH tested above else. There are so many things out there you can do to help the DDB breed but breeding $$$$ is not one of them. If you feel the questions we asked were offensive then I guess its clear to say you won't find the answers you are looking for here.

That said honestly we hope you stay and learn why we have the responses we did. There are plenty of breeders here to learn from

 

[Doggyhelpplease]

If that were the case you'd be selling them for way less than $2,500-$3,000

"Good health" for breeding stock cannot be determined at only 19 months (or should not). You should wait till 2 years and get his hips, elbows etc., checked (x-rayed). I don't know about DDB but if eyes also need checking than do so. For my breed they check thyroid as well (so when I looked for my pup, I ensured that the parents were checked for all these issues before paying for my pup - I do not breed myself or haven't ever). Also, you may want to show him and title him up, this is not me getting all moral on you...profit wise why, would I pick this stud over one with titles or good working history etc. The more you can prove the more you can charge. Before everyone jumps on me, I do not agree with breeding for profit only (not saying this is what you want Big Tanc) but he will do what he wants to do, so might as well tell him the steps to check if his pup caries good genes in those joints etc. Also, if everything is done correctly, all tests, Mama checks, puppy checks, possibility of C-section there is not huge profit to make from what I have researched and this is not a bias comment as I do not breed. I found this on a site once in my country just as a rough estimate of some items, she sold her pups for 2k each. Prices may vary as her prices would be cheaper up north on a farm compared to near cities etc.

Cost of a litter:
(Based on costs of our first litter of 9 in 2009)
Pre-breeding costs of one parent:

OVC hip/ elbow clearance- $350
Thyroid panel- $130
CERF ( annual)- $52
Canine Brucella DNA- $170
Progeserone testing - $130 per test
TOTAL:-------------------------- $962

Stud Fee--------------------$1000 ( average)

Pre Whelp expenses:
Ultrasound - $300
Vitamins- $80
Additional feeding ( can not factor cost)
Vet Check- $75
TOTAL------------------------------- $455

Litter expenses:
Vet Check (mom and pups) $590
Vet Check for pups and first vaccines $930
Worming cost for puppies $125
Dew claw removal $220
Second vet check for remaining pups $625
Travel to and from Vets office: $380
Bedding/blankets for whelping box- $80
Goats milk formula for pups -$45
Cleaning and disinfecting supplies- $60

TOTAL------------------------------------$3025

Grand total for litter basics:------ $5442.00

This total does not include:
-Travel expenses to and from airports for delivery (4 hour trip one way)
- Time off work to get to vet appointments
-Any vet care the mother may need after delivery OR cost of a c-section if needed, which every breeder should have set aside in the event it is needed.
-Added food costs of pregnant dog, food cost of an average litter of 9 large pups.
-Supplies for pups who are here for quarantine period depending on country they are going to, as well as obedience classes for socialization as it is vitally important to any pup and just because they may have to stay here until 5 months of age does not exuse them not learning and developing mentally.
-Also there are the costs of exhibiting the dogs in conformation, obedience and other venues if applicable, for these costs, there are entry fee's, preparation training, conditioning, travel, motels ect.
-All "profit" from litters goes right back into our dogs, be it for shows, trials, training classes ect.

Also I would think
-Sometimes the dog you hoped to be parent turns out to have only normal joints or some problem and they are not used for breeding so individuals who show and breed usually have more than 1 female etc. Multi dog costs.
-The cost you paid for your dog and providing care throughout its life food etc.
-The time it takes to screen all new owners to ensure they are the best for your puppies

If you quantified everything with $$, I do not see how you can make a large profit...if you do not do it properly sure you can. If you break down everything to the penny but look at long term costs people would be disappointed. Sure you get a lum sum at once but you bleed out before and after (especially with time....if you have a good job anyways time=good money) and real good breeders do it for bettering the breed not a profit because if you saved that money and time and invest it you probably have that same $$.

DO not take me wrong I am not saying this is what you are doing....just that many people think raising puppies is cheap and it isn't if done right and that is why health pure bred dogs cost that much.

 

[musicdeb]

WOW! Thanks doggyhelpplease! I, personally, had no idea when went into breeding. Great post!

 

[lizzy_troy]

Ok..first...i wanna breed my male becuase he looks to be a perfect specimin of a bordeaux, of course i am partial to him
second...i have witnessed some results of bad breeding standards, and i want to carry on his good stock.
Third...if any of you think one minute, that yall are breeding these dogs out of the goodness of your heart with no monitary gains in mind, you are all liars!!
If that were the case you'd be selling them for way less than $2,500-$3,000
my original post was to ask the proper steps and procedures one should take in studding my akc french mastiff, not looking for any moral advise as to if i were doing this for the right reasons, who are any of you to judge, i have a beautiful animal, with good health, and with what i have read, he is within specs with above breed standards.

I went back and read this thread a few times over, and I don't think anyone is judging you. We're just trying to help you make an informed decision. You didn't ask for the proper steps and procedures in your first post. You just bragged on your dog and said you wanted to stud him. He is gorgeous, so I understand you being proud of him; I would be, too.
I think everyone here that has responded so far is concerned, like CeeCee said, that it "feels like your thought of using your dog as a stud is in it's infancy." I am not a dog breeder, never have been. But, I have done a lot of research on it, and I have worked with and in a shelter for years, so I do have experience to speak from. If you want to use your dog as a stud, that's fine. I just want to give you information to think about before you decide. "Reputable breeders," or the breeders that "are in it for the big bucks," do a tremendous amount of work for each litter of puppies. There is planning of the breeding, the actual breeding (whether natural or AI), monitoring the pregnancy if breeding is a success, monitoring the birthing and raising of the pups, health and genetic testing, and rigorous screening for potential customers, not to mention all that goes in for showing a dog. It takes a lot of time, energy, and money to do all those things; that's why the high quality pups from reputable breeders cost so much. They don't make as much money as you think. And most breeders that I know and have met do it on the side. It's not their main source of income. Sure, some might do it for a living, but usually, in that instance, they own a kennel. Back yard breeders, and by this I mean the people that breed just for the money that comes with a "novelty breed," usually don't do any testing or screening of potential homes, thus there is a much higher risk of the pups one day winding up in a shelter, rescue, or other rehoming situation. It's much easier to part with a $300 poorly bred Mastiff than a $3000 high quality pup, in the event of an issue. Obviously there are many factors involved in rehoming, some of which have nothing to do with the breeders. But, in general, there are less instances with high quality pups and breeders than there are with BYBs.

I'm not trying to rip you apart or anything. I'm trying to present the truth as gently as possible. When I read your posts, I got the idea that you're new to the breed, you really love your dog, and you'd like to make some extra money. I can't blame you for that. But, in all honestly, if you're new to the breed, you can't say for sure that your dog is the perfect specimen of the DDB. That's why people have suggested showing him. It gives you the chance to prove how perfect he is and to see if other people agree with you.
You have three options. 1.) Get him neutered. 2.) Stud him out to nice looking females with owners that will pay you and not really do anything else cause they're just selling the puppies, not bettering the breed (this doesn't mean that they are bad people, maybe they're just doing it as a hobby and they take good care of their dogs and pups). 3.) Show your dog, get all the tests done, do all the research involved with selected the perfect female as a match each time.

Option 1 I stated just because it's an option. I'm not saying that you need to have him neutered. I'm not trying to sway you away from breeding. I'm just stating it as an option.

Option 2 is the "easiest." You simply find females that you approve of their looks, living condition, and you get along well enough with the owners. You have the female come to your house, let them breed a few times, get paid, and that's that. You probably won't get the high quality females this way, but you'll get nice once, or you might get poor quality females whose owners are just in it for a quick buck. What you choose to accept for your male is up to you. You could also get all the necessary tools and equipment for semen collection and sell it for AI.

Option 3 involves the most work, but it's the most ethical of the breeding options. It also involves a tremendous amount of work. You get all the necessary checks done for your male. You enter him into some kind of competitions, and you show him. You work hard to win titles, if he is a great representation of the breed. Then, you advertise him as a stud. You'll have to make sure to check all the testing and pedigrees of the females whose owners are interested in your male. You go through the breeding process. Then, you keep in contact with the owners of the females until their litter is born and claimed. You also need to be prepared to take in pups produced, in the event that the buyers can't/don't want to keep them and the owner of the female can't.

It's a lot to think about. Sorry if I said too much as once and if I repeated something that someone else said. Take all the advice/info given here, think about it, and make your decision. As long as your honest and taking care of your dog and his possible children, I'm sure you'll get the support you're looking for here. Sometimes, it's tough love, but we really do care about these breeds and the people that own them.

 

[BIG TANC]

HERE IS MY BOYS FATHER...
TAKE IT FOR WHAT ITS WORTH
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR FEED BACK, GOOD OR BAD, ITS ALL A LEARNING LESSON

http://www.beachesbordeaux.com/www.beachesbordeaux.com/Males_-_Brutus.html

 

[BIG TANC]

AND HIS MOTHER..
http://www.beachesbordeaux.com/www.beachesbordeaux.com/Females_-_Aria.html

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

They are gorgeous without being overdone. But I have to ask could the breeder not help you with your query? Like be a mentor to you?

 

[northernmastiff]

They are beautiful dogs, nice heads on both. I would get advice from the breeder. They can help you with a lot and be a mentor to you. Also, they may have a line that they want to breed back to him.

 

[BIG TANC]

Very true, like i said this ddb was giving to me, becuase the owner didnt have the time to work with him, i just recieve his info a week ago, completed brain fart...

 

[Doggyhelpplease]

This was right in your contract

5. The puppy shall not be bred unless it shall first (1) have been x-rayed and certified clear of hip dysplasia by OFA or other competent individual or organization, (2) have been certified clear of hereditary eye disease by a canine ophthalmologist, and (3) have displayed good socialization skills and good temperament, nor shall it be bred to a bitch or dog who does not meet these same three conditions.5. The puppy shall not be bred unless it shall first (1) have been x-rayed and certified clear of hip dysplasia by OFA or other competent individual or organization, (2) have been certified clear of hereditary eye diseases by a canine ophthalmologist, and (3) have displayed good socialization skills and good temperament, nor shall it be bred to a bitch or dog who does not meet these same three conditions.
8. The Seller shall not sell the puppy, or its offspring (if any), to any individual or establishment in the business of buying and selling puppies for a profit.


I think your breeder would want to know your plans and can help you...or that's the impression I get by the contract on his site. Why did you ask for the steps on here when you already agreed to many of them in your contract. At this point...no offence but it seems you were trying to slide it under his radar or you cannot read. BTW you don't NEED TO POST ALL IN CAPS.

edited
Well now that you posted the new information it seems you just started to read it and it wasn't your fault...which is good but ya def contact him and he can help you it seems.

 

[lizzy_troy]

I hope I didn't offend you. That wasn't my intent at all.

Gorgeous parents!!

Best of luck in whatever you choose to do.

 

[lizzy_troy]

This was right in your contract

5. The puppy shall not be bred unless it shall first (1) have been x-rayed and certified clear of hip dysplasia by OFA or other competent individual or organization, (2) have been certified clear of hereditary eye disease by a canine ophthalmologist, and (3) have displayed good socialization skills and good temperament, nor shall it be bred to a bitch or dog who does not meet these same three conditions.5. The puppy shall not be bred unless it shall first (1) have been x-rayed and certified clear of hip dysplasia by OFA or other competent individual or organization, (2) have been certified clear of hereditary eye diseases by a canine ophthalmologist, and (3) have displayed good socialization skills and good temperament, nor shall it be bred to a bitch or dog who does not meet these same three conditions.
8. The Seller shall not sell the puppy, or its offspring (if any), to any individual or establishment in the business of buying and selling puppies for a profit.


I think your breeder would want to know your plans and can help you...or that's the impression I get by the contract on his site. Why did you ask for the steps on here when you already agreed to many of them in your contract. At this point...no offence but it seems you were trying to slide it under his radar or you cannot read. BTW you don't NEED TO POST ALL IN CAPS.

edited
Well now that you posted the new information it seems you just started to read it and it wasn't your fault...which is good but ya def contact him and he can help you it seems.

The op said that the dog was given to him (or her, sorry), so the co tract doesn't apply. The original owner is the one who breeched the contract...

Just saw your edit! we must be on at the same time.

 

[Doggyhelpplease]

The op said that the dog was given to him (or her, sorry), so the co tract doesn't apply. The original owner is the one who breeched the contract...

Just saw your edit! we must be on at the same time.

Yep. I was typing at the same time them but it only took me less than 5 mins of looking at that site to see what the original breeder would want and what is good for the dogs etc. Not saying he shouldn't stud, just that he has a ways to go before he is really ready.

I left my original stuff in there and just wrote edit...as I am not trying to hide anything...yes I can be a little harsh.

 

[marke]

Ok..first...i wanna breed my male becuase he looks to be a perfect specimin of a bordeaux, of course i am partial to him
second...i have witnessed some results of bad breeding standards, and i want to carry on his good stock.
Third...if any of you think one minute, that yall are breeding these dogs out of the goodness of your heart with no monitary gains in mind, you are all liars!!
If that were the case you'd be selling them for way less than $2,500-$3,000

my original post was to ask the proper steps and procedures one should take in studding my akc french mastiff, not looking for any moral advise as to if i were doing this for the right reasons, who are any of you to judge, i have a beautiful animal, with good health, and with what i have read, he is within specs with above breed standards.

i'm actually looking for a stud , so i can tell you what i'm looking for ......... good hips , good breather , straight rear , solid tight feet , excellent movement , heart checked normal , no allergies , no stenotic nares , big straight teeth , proper undershot , straight front would be nice , slightly toed out is ok , tight eyes , no shy dogues , bold outgoing , the older the better , decent rear angulation , but if they move excellent that should be accounted for ...... pedigree would be nice , what is your dogs pedigree that makes him well bred ?????? those are the kinda dogues people should be breeding , and imo they are few and very far between ........ how does your dogue fair in my criteria ?????

 

[lizzy_troy]

i'm actually looking for a stud , so i can tell you what i'm looking for ......... good hips , good breather , straight rear , solid tight feet , excellent movement , heart checked normal , no allergies , no stenotic nares , big straight teeth , proper undershot , straight front would be nice , slightly toed out is ok , tight eyes , no shy dogues , bold outgoing , the older the better , decent rear angulation , but if they move excellent that should be accounted for ...... pedigree would be nice , what is your dogs pedigree that makes him well bred ?????? those are the kinda dogues people should be breeding , and imo they are few and very far between ........ how does your dogue fair in my criteria ?????

Thanks for joining in the conversation!

My Mayzee has allergies, so even if she was perfect show quality, I couldn't ethically breed her. Sure, allergies don't seem like a big deal, but they sure can be!

 

[tojvan]

"Good health" for breeding stock cannot be determined at only 19 months (or should not). You should wait till 2 years and get his hips, elbows etc., checked (x-rayed). I don't know about DDB but if eyes also need checking than do so. For my breed they check thyroid as well (so when I looked for my pup, I ensured that the parents were checked for all these issues before paying for my pup - I do not breed myself or haven't ever). Also, you may want to show him and title him up, this is not me getting all moral on you...profit wise why, would I pick this stud over one with titles or good working history etc. The more you can prove the more you can charge. Before everyone jumps on me, I do not agree with breeding for profit only (not saying this is what you want Big Tanc) but he will do what he wants to do, so might as well tell him the steps to check if his pup caries good genes in those joints etc. Also, if everything is done correctly, all tests, Mama checks, puppy checks, possibility of C-section there is not huge profit to make from what I have researched and this is not a bias comment as I do not breed. I found this on a site once in my country just as a rough estimate of some items, she sold her pups for 2k each. Prices may vary as her prices would be cheaper up north on a farm compared to near cities etc.

Cost of a litter:
(Based on costs of our first litter of 9 in 2009)
Pre-breeding costs of one parent:

OVC hip/ elbow clearance- $350
Thyroid panel- $130
CERF ( annual)- $52
Canine Brucella DNA- $170
Progeserone testing - $130 per test
TOTAL:-------------------------- $962

Stud Fee--------------------$1000 ( average)

Pre Whelp expenses:
Ultrasound - $300
Vitamins- $80
Additional feeding ( can not factor cost)
Vet Check- $75
TOTAL------------------------------- $455

Litter expenses:
Vet Check (mom and pups) $590
Vet Check for pups and first vaccines $930
Worming cost for puppies $125
Dew claw removal $220
Second vet check for remaining pups $625
Travel to and from Vets office: $380
Bedding/blankets for whelping box- $80
Goats milk formula for pups -$45
Cleaning and disinfecting supplies- $60

TOTAL------------------------------------$3025

Grand total for litter basics:------ $5442.00

This total does not include:
-Travel expenses to and from airports for delivery (4 hour trip one way)
- Time off work to get to vet appointments
-Any vet care the mother may need after delivery OR cost of a c-section if needed, which every breeder should have set aside in the event it is needed.
-Added food costs of pregnant dog, food cost of an average litter of 9 large pups.
-Supplies for pups who are here for quarantine period depending on country they are going to, as well as obedience classes for socialization as it is vitally important to any pup and just because they may have to stay here until 5 months of age does not exuse them not learning and developing mentally.
-Also there are the costs of exhibiting the dogs in conformation, obedience and other venues if applicable, for these costs, there are entry fee's, preparation training, conditioning, travel, motels ect.
-All "profit" from litters goes right back into our dogs, be it for shows, trials, training classes ect.

Also I would think
-Sometimes the dog you hoped to be parent turns out to have only normal joints or some problem and they are not used for breeding so individuals who show and breed usually have more than 1 female etc. Multi dog costs.
-The cost you paid for your dog and providing care throughout its life food etc.
-The time it takes to screen all new owners to ensure they are the best for your puppies

If you quantified everything with $$, I do not see how you can make a large profit...if you do not do it properly sure you can. If you break down everything to the penny but look at long term costs people would be disappointed. Sure you get a lum sum at once but you bleed out before and after (especially with time....if you have a good job anyways time=good money) and real good breeders do it for bettering the breed not a profit because if you saved that money and time and invest it you probably have that same $$.

DO not take me wrong I am not saying this is what you are doing....just that many people think raising puppies is cheap and it isn't if done right and that is why health pure bred dogs cost that much.

In a litter of 5 if your charging 2000-2500 your still making money... In my opinion there is a lot of idealism even the ethical breeders need to make a living. For every 1 ethical breeder there are 10 that are not.

 

[BIG TANC]

Thank You all for your feedback, i jsut spoke with my boy's breeder, and she no longer breeds but has forwarded me to someone that can help. once he reaches the age of 2yrs, i will have his proper blood work done, but after speaking to his breeder, all her male pups have turned out to be inline with the standards to stud. I will be contacting folks to get him shown in the future, and hopefully this will make him more appealing as a stud. Marc, according to all your specs you speak of, i believe he falls into place just right with you, but who am i to make those determining factors, once i get him shown unbiasly, the proof would be in the pudding so to speak.

 

[angelbears]

In a litter of 5 if your charging 2000-2500 your still making money... In my opinion there is a lot of idealism even the ethical breeders need to make a living. For every 1 ethical breeder there are 10 that are not.

Does that make it right? I'm all for making money, just not off the back of a living, breathing animal.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Wow that's great news!!! Glad you found someone who could help and give guidance. Good luck!

 

[Doggyhelpplease]

In a litter of 5 if your charging 2000-2500 your still making money... In my opinion there is a lot of idealism even the ethical breeders need to make a living. For every 1 ethical breeder there are 10 that are not.

You might, or you might have a C-section emergency or something else comes up and there goes the "profit" and also stresses your dog and there is risks (showing is not cheap etc, she just listed the basic litter costs not the whole picture. With only 1 litter a year, I do not think you could make a living...even 2 litters a year (remember more litters a year, the more grown dogs you have too). Most agree an ethical breeder usually does not have more than 1to2 litters a year and does not breed the same dog every year/heat. The time evolved would be a large investment too (time finding homes etc, is time not working or relaxing). It may depend on where you live but here you could get a 20-30 an hour job and make the cash a whole lot faster and more reliable than trying to "breed ethically" so there must be something else in it for you besides possible $$ (better the breed or whatnot).

grammar edit