Trainer wants to use remote collar on puppy??

[Mag-Pie]

"... as long as you are using the collar correctly and at the appropriate level for your dog, it will not cause any fear or agression issues. I think more dogs turn aggressive or have fear from people screaming at them. Our trainer almost whispers the commands, and with him Zola is on point and running to her "place".

^^^ x2

The e-collar I use is the newest SMS collar, they have a few different ones. It has 1-7 stimulation levels, with low/medium/high intensity ranges. Also has the option to train with vibration or tone. Luther's working level is usually 3 indoors, and sometimes 4 outdoors where there's more distractions. The only time he was worked on 6-7 was when he was being handled by other trainers, not his usual trainer, as a part of aggressive dog class training I attended. He hates complying with strangers, and was pretty much ignoring them until they turned up the levels. Then he did everything that was asked of him, although he did it with attitude, and as soon as he would perform command given he would try walking off back to me. After all, I am his primary handler. LOL. I tried the intensity from 1-7 on myself, 1 is completely unnoticeable, 3 is very comfortable, and 7 gets my attention. Nothing extreme though, IMO. One way to explain what it feels like is: the impulses mimic the action potential coming from the central nervous system, causing muscle contraction. This technology is used in physical therapy and rehabilitation of patients. Training started out with dog on leash, wearing the collar, teaching him commands and what is expected of him, the button is always pressed in conjunction with the command given, it is NEVER used as a punishment tool - you never just zap the dog to make him stop whatever it is you don't want him doing. The way I see it, it works like a tap on the shoulder would to a person, it gets his attention and reminds him to pay attention to me and my commands, and snaps him out of whatever else he might be focusing on at the moment.

Before I decided to go with this training program, I met with the trainer, he came to my house for a free demo, evaluated my dog and demonstrated the e-collar, answered all my questions AND showed off his 2 demo dogs. They also have all kinds of training videos on youtube, so I already had an idea of what to expect, plus I did my research on them. I liked what I saw, and the rest is history. Luther's reaction to the first stimulation was nothing more then a look to the right, since that is the side of his neck the contact points are positioned on. There was no fear, no confusion, more like “hey, what was that?â€. This was 3 months ago, and Luther is still going through group classes, which are designed to proof the commands under all kinds of distractions, e.g., people, dogs, noises, etc. Also I work/train with him on a daily basis, doing short training drills, teaching new commands, etc., with and without the collar. He's very obedient, listens well, and comes when I call, with or without the collar. However, with the collar he does perform instantly, and without it he likes to take his sweet time, and sometimes will test my patience, and what he can get away with. NILF.

Training is a lifetime commitment of consistency, so as far as I am concerned his training will never stop. He is still a juvenile, about 18 months old, so he still has a way to go before he is a stable adult. In the meantime, Luther seems very happy with this type of training, he loves going to class, and shows no fear nor aggression while wearing the collar. In fact, he is less fearful and aggressive then what he was like when I started his training. On a side note, he came to me with some behavioral issues and has progressed nicely. He's still a work in progress, but I know I've done extremely well in working to rehabilitate his “issues†so far. And as far as having him off-leash, I would NEVER allow him to just run around in public (park, beach, woods, etc.) without him wearing the e-collar. Dogs are dogs, might get distracted, they don't use logic, they don't reason things out, even IF they are obedience trained. And I like knowing that I can get his attention at any time, and he will not blow me off (which he might) because he found something somewhere that captured his attention. The e-collar is a tool that gives me that control over him at a distance. And SMS offers lifetime group class membership, which is a plus for me; they specialize in family pet training and K-9 police dog training. The company has something like 72 locations in the U.S.. Their program features an "attention-based dog training system†and the e-collar is essential to it. They have very positive reviews from previous clients, and I found them very helpful, so I have no reservations in regards to this type of training. This is just a quick explanation (haha, sorry) of what training was/is like with the e-collar for me, if you'd like more details you can PM me with more questions. Cheers!

 

[sjdavenport]

Ok, so I have chosen to go ahead and take this trainer's On Lead Foundation program, which does NOT use any remote collar. It's the equivalent of a basics/beginner class, which I had been planning on taking with Rhaegar somewhere else (that's the only class they offer there) simply for the reason that it costs less than a third of what the other trainer costs for the equivalent (she's really expensive). After thinking about it, and considering everyone's advice, I just can't get get rid of my really uneasy feelings about jumping into using the e collar with this trainer. So hopefully after meeting her, working with her, and seeing her training methods first hand for the Foundations, I can then, with a little more peace of mind, make the decision about whether I want to take him through the 6 month off lead/e collar program or not. Once again, thank you all for being respectful (I know e collars can be a heated topic), offering your opinons, and answering my questions! I just love my little (well, big) guy so much and want the best for him!! Rhaegar also says thanks!

 

[DalCielo CC]

You made the right decision. JMO, I wouldn't use or let a trainer use an E collar on a puppy. At 15 weeks their attention span is too short and they do whatever pops into their heads at any given moment. They need early training and socialization, but if they're going to grow up to be a confident adult they need to be allowed to be a puppy first. Training needs to be fun and sessions need to be short at that age. I also use an E collar but only for off leash recalls with trained dogs that know the command. They can be great tools when use correctly.

 

[Browniebits]

I was going to use about the same service, but was told to keep a few things in mind. Mastiffs have the highest pain tolerance of all dogs, so an uncomfortable buzz can be ignored if they are hard headed. If your Mastiff isn't a "hard" dog, the sensation could cause fear aggression, even if it isn't actual pain they are experiencing. And lastly, obedience training is so much about the bond between owner and puppy. To make then WANT to listen, and not force the obedience with a tool (e-collar, prong, whatever), there is no greater feeling in the world. You feel it, the dog feels it, and you become closer because of it. My opinion, I would try positive reinforcement fist. The e-collar will always be there as an option if positive enforcement doesn't work first, but if your start with that option, you could potentially traumatize them right off the bat

 

[DennasMom]

I think the point of the eCollar on a puppy is just to get their attention.... at least, that's how I would use it.

Set it to make a noise or vibrate, and then set that up as the "look-at-me" cue. I.e. 'vibrate' means stop what you're doing and look at me... and get a treat.... then, it can be morphed into 'look at me and get your next direction'.

If you can get it to chime or vibrate remotely, that'd be great... then 'vibrate' would be "look at me and get your next direction" and the 'chime' could be equivalent to a "click" on the clicker... i.e. "Good Job! You've earned a treat!"

Hunting dogs often wear remote collars as communication devices, just due to sight and hearing limitations when working in the fields.

I'd be paying strict attention to the trainer to make sure they were following all the suggestions, above, too... i.e. train first, proof next, THEN correct as needed.

 

[kguitarchic18]

Good idea to start with the basic training and not jump right into the ecollar. It will only help set a good foundation. But if you don't feel comfortable with the trainer and her ecollar training, maybe you should look into another trainer?

As Mag-Pie said above, our trainer came to our house too for a free evaulation. Super nice guy, and you could tell he has a love for training dogs. He then brought us outside to demo his dog. He said, you can see for yourself that my dog is happy, and more than willing to do the commands, with and without the collar. He was just as good without the collar on as well. Then he had us feel the collar as well.

 

[sjdavenport]

I promise we are working on getting the basics down solid! I would never use an e collar to correct him for something when he doesn't know what I want him to do. And the trainer didn't make it sound like it was used for corrections anyway....but I think I'm just going to have to see what she does in person to get a better idea of how she's using the collar (I should get that chance while taking her Intro class - no remote collar). And I honestly would just go with another trainer, but she is literally the only option in my area. Here's a video of some of what we've been working on....I made it for my mom - she lives four hours away and wanted to see her grandbaby's progress (she knows he's the only grandchild she'll be getting from me, lol). It also helped me see a few errors I'm making that I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. I'm letting him pop up early and still rewarding and somewhere along the way, I started forgetting to release him from each command. We're working on it!

In the video, it's a rawhide that he's dropping, and just a cookie for "leave it."

[video]http://vid1166.photobucket.com/albums/q603/sjd0014/1166_zps803cc831.mp4[/video]

 

[Hector]

Just a few comments. I don't know if you are using "yes" as a marker, but I noticed you used "yes" to mark the down, but you had already fed and the dog was already up. You should mark the behavior/position you like and then feed them in that position. If the dog gets out of position and you say "yes" a bit too slow, then feed. When you mark, you always feed even if it's not what you wanted and just try again and try not to make the same mistake. Again, near the end where he dropped the treat, you fed and them marked him with a yes.

Also, stay should have a clear and obvious hand signal (like a face palm in the face or stretched out open hand, but something very obvious). It looked to me like you used two different hand signals for stay. One with two fingers and then the one at the end with a sort of semi open palm. Being clear and consistent is very important. I really liked how you used spatial pressure to move him back into a stay at the end by moving forward into his space and he responded really well.

Also, a couple of times the dog bounced out of position, but you fed him anyway. I don't know how to explain this, but this is reinforcing sloppy positions. It looks like the dog is always anticipating to move out of place. I don't know if it is due to his attention span or because it has been reinforced. I suggest working on very brief sits and stays and downs until he gets better at it. From the video it looks like he can only hold a position for about two seconds, so when you add distance you are making it more difficult for him than it already is. People often make the mistake of moving too fast too soon.

Other than that, he looks like he is eager to learn and listens well and the drop it and leave it were quite impressive. Keep up the good work.

 

[Hector]

Sorry not face palm in the face, but you can do that too if you wanted as your signal lol. It's not the position that he has problems with (couldn't think of the right words), it's holding the position he has problems with.

 

[sjdavenport]

I certainly appreciate the tips! I definitely noticed him bouncing out of position on the video (which is what I meant when I said I kept letting him pop up early and still treating him), which I hadn't even noticed that he was doing (and that I was reinforcing) until I watched the video. But I definitely didn't notice how sloppy my markers were getting, thanks for pointing that out! I also try to consistently use an open, flat palm for stay, but I had wads of treats and cookies in my hands....so it's no wonder his stay wasn't all that successful, lol. And I always use "wait" at the door and not "stay" like I did in the video. I was rushing to squeeze things into the shortest possible video so it would fit in an email, and it definitely shows. For anyone else working on training, videoing yourself seems to be an awesome way to see where you're going wrong and where improvement can be made! Thanks again Hector.

 

[Hector]

You can look up clicker training and marker training for more tips. Remember to charge your marker whether it be a word or a sound. Good luck, can't wait to see more.

 

[sjdavenport]

Here is Rhaegar's new (and hopefully improved) training video. I've worked on not giving him mixed signals, but if anyone sees something I don't, feel free to let me know! Just ignore the cats....they are NOT trained, lol. "Leave it" is always much harder for him when they're lurking. They won't hesitate to attempt to steal his cookies.

[video]http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q603/sjd0014/037_zpsd6735fa3.mp4][IMG[/video]

 

[Hector]

Here is Rhaegar's new (and hopefully improved) training video. I've worked on not giving him mixed signals, but if anyone sees something I don't, feel free to let me know! Just ignore the cats....they are NOT trained, lol. "Leave it" is always much harder for him when they're lurking. They won't hesitate to attempt to steal his cookies.

[video]http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q603/sjd0014/037_zpsd6735fa3.mp4][IMG[/video]

Very good! Love the push up (sit down sit) and his stay was very good. The cats are a great help with the training!

Just curious, but do you plan on using a marker word?

 

[sjdavenport]

As you can tell from the video, I have kind of given up on the marker word. I get the concept, and even how to use it, and how awesome of a tool it could be, but I don't think I have the coordination to use it effectively. I open my mouth, and it all goes to hell, lol....just like word vomit coming out. So it was really confusing him more than anything. I know it's such a simple task, but I'm clearly challenged, lol. Which begs the question, how would I expect to effectively use an e collar to train him since timing is everything? The answer is, I'm not. I finally decided that I think it's not right for us, and I got some great news from the trainer I used over the summer in my hometown for Rhaegar's puppy kindergarten. One of her trainers (who she highly recommends) is moving to Auburn in January, and although she won't really be doing formal training for anyone anymore, she really wants to work with me (yay!). So in the meantime, we're taking a class somewhere else. I'm not super impressed, but it gets us out working around strange people and dogs on a regular basis....and there's a herd of sheep right next to the training field. If that's not working with distractions, I don't know what is!

 

[Hector]

Wow, super cool. I am excited for the both of you!

You can practice by saying yes and feed your dog. Say yes and feed your dog. You don't have to rush. It looks like he's ready for more duration work. When you tell him to sit...just wait and then say yes and feed. Practice makes perfect and it's all up to you if you want to mark or not.

 

[ruthcatrin]

On my ipad, so watching a video is iffy, but using a marker word does take practice. Once I figured it out though I prefer it over clickers or whistles, or other markers. The starting exercizes are easy, like Hector said "say yes, give him a treat". Make it a firm, happy Yes!

And cool on the trainer! Yah, ecollars take the RIGHT timing and if you struggle with that an ecoller isn't for you!

 

[Mag-Pie]

Which begs the question, how would I expect to effectively use an e collar to train him since timing is everything? The answer is, I'm not.

Every time you say the command you press the button, at the same time. It's a quick and easy way to train your dog to listen/pay attention to your commands instantly, and gives you reliable off-leash control. I see it more as a polishing tool in the training program we follow. Nevertheless, judging from your recent video you're progressing very nicely with Rhaegar's training. Good luck with your new trainer!

 

[musicdeb]

Good job mom and Rhaegar~

 

[QY10]

Way to go Rhaegar! He looks so attentive and eager to learn.

 

[solidbeef]

From what you explained, this program sounds a lot like the training model that Sit Means Sit dog training offers, (which is what I am familiar with) and they also use the e-collar. It's a quick and easy way to train your dog to listen/pay attention to your commands, and gives you reliable off-leash control. The e-collar is always used with conjunction with a command given, it is NOT about "shocking" the dog to stop doing something (which is what generally people think happens when they hear e-collar), as your trainer already told you.

I had my CC trained this way, and I am completely satisfied with it. I can honestly say that my dog is obedient, very reliable and has nearly perfect off-leash recall. And it's been only 3 months since he started his training, we're still going through group classes. The e-collar is just a training tool, when used correctly it is a great tool IMO. I feel confident in the tools given to me by SMS, I would recommend this type of training to anyone who is interested in having a well behaved, reliable dog; and I know that this was absolutely the best investment that I could have made for my dog. Worth every penny.

Here is a great video about e-collars from Leerburg: http://leerburg.com/remote.htm. The link also has many articles discussing remote collar training. Take a look, and then you can make an informed decision IF this is something for you and your pup. Good luck and best wishes.

Also, I'd like to add that I completely agree with Ed Frawley in that the e-collar is the greatest dog training tool ever invented, AND it is also the most misused tool, because the average person does not take the time to learn how to use it properly. When used properly it IS the greatest off-leash control tool you could ever use.

I agree with everything that was said in this post. My 2 year old English Mastiff has been trained by SMS and the remote collar is the greatest communication tool for your pet. He is basically trained off-leash to go everywhere I go and listens to all my commands. People should do the reseach on remote collars before being so quick to dismiss and call it cruel. These collars are so advanced now that you have so much control on how much pressure (not shock) to use to communicate. Remote collars all the way!