Trainer wants to use remote collar on puppy??

[sjdavenport]

I'm hoping to get people's opinions on this trainer's obedience training program. Her website advertises an "off lead reliable program." This is the description of what is covered: "This program is for those who have the time to devote, and enjoy the process of training their own dog. Your dog stays in your home and you train him yourself, with our professional instructions
You will learn to train your dog the following skillsOFF LEAD:

• Loose lead walking
• On and off leash heel
• Off (get off people, counters.)
• Sit for an extended period of time
• Down for an extended period of time
• Place
• Leave it
• Drop it
• Wait at the door and in car to prevent bolting
• Come when called from a distance every time!"

First she requires either a foundation program with her, or if you've covered the basics elsewhere, then she just has one session with you to sort of fine tune things prior to starting the off leash program. That program consists of three private, in home sessions, followed by invitation to 6 months of "polishing classes." Those are larger group classes that take place every Saturday in different busy and distracting locations downtown. Now for the problem: I noticed in many of her photos on Facebook, that the dogs were wearing electronic collars, so I emailed her and asked if she required her clients to use them in her programs. Her response:
"[FONT=georgia,palatino]Yes, all of my off leash programs require the use of the remote training collar. It is used to communicate what we want the dog to do, rather than what we don't want. In other words, people who go buy the collar at the pet store (they don't sell the collars I specialize in at the local shops) do so out of frustration and as a last resort, they are trying to teach the dog to STOP doing something. I use it as a GO collar, meaning, do this, not stop doing that.

If you complete a program somewhere else, you will only need to add one lesson to your training so that I can fine tune whatever you have learned and prepare your pup for the off leash training. I work with all breeds and have been doing so since 1996. If there is something you would like to specifically teach your dog to do, in terms of protection or bite work, I do not offer that type of training.

I look forward to working with you, if you decide my programs are right for you."

So then I emailed her again and asked if the collars use vibration, tones, shocks or what. I also said that it concerned me because my puppy is pretty soft, and that I'd only used reward based training for my dogs before. Her response to that:
"[FONT=georgia,palatino]The collars I use have a vibrate feature as well as a stimulation feature. They go have an intensity from 1-127, so even the most sensitive dog will be able to be "touched" to get their attention and then direct them in a manner that makes sense to them. If you would like to meet me at some time and feel the collar, I can explain it a little better.

Who will you be doing your initial training with?

Thank you, and let me know if you would like to meet later in time, before you decide what you would like to do."

The training options in my area are pretty limited. I was in a different town over the summer, so Rhaegar has already completed a puppy kindergarten class there. It was of course, all positive reinforcement, and he did very well. Now we are planning to take the next basic class with him at one of the very few training places in my area. They only offer the one basic/beginner group class, and nothing beyond that, so that's why I'm talking to the above trainer - I'd like to take him further than just the basics. My dogs all go everywhere with us, so I'm dedicated doing whatever it takes to help Rhaegar become a reliable, trustworthy, and well behaved companion in all situations. So what are yall's thoughts? Would you absolutely say no the the use of an e collar on a puppy, even with the guidance of an experienced instructor? I'm pretty dog savvy, so if at any point I felt uncomfortable with what was happening (or if Rhaegar seemed like he wasn't responding well to it), I would have no problem saying so, and stopping the training. She has tons of positive reviews, and she has tons and tons of photos and videos of her training sessions/polishing classes, and the dogs all seem to be pretty comfortable and non-fearful with the methods. Sorry about the novel, I was just trying to be thorough!



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[sjdavenport]

Rhaegar is currently 15 weeks, he will start his basic obedience class in two weeks, and it lasts six weeks. So IF we choose to use the trainer I'm concerned about in the above post, he would then be probably about 6 months at the start.

 

[Heads.up.Penny]

Hmmm I wouldn't do it, but mainly because I'm about positive reinforcement training first and this seems a bit much to use an electric collar on a puppy . Just my 2 pennies

 

[Hector]

I would do it. E-collar training doesn't equal shocking the crap out of the dog to get it to comply. It can be a very gentle tool or it can be a harsh one.

 

[Mag-Pie]

From what you explained, this program sounds a lot like the training model that Sit Means Sit dog training offers, (which is what I am familiar with) and they also use the e-collar. It's a quick and easy way to train your dog to listen/pay attention to your commands, and gives you reliable off-leash control. The e-collar is always used with conjunction with a command given, it is NOT about "shocking" the dog to stop doing something (which is what generally people think happens when they hear e-collar), as your trainer already told you.

I had my CC trained this way, and I am completely satisfied with it. I can honestly say that my dog is obedient, very reliable and has nearly perfect off-leash recall. And it's been only 3 months since he started his training, we're still going through group classes. The e-collar is just a training tool, when used correctly it is a great tool IMO. I feel confident in the tools given to me by SMS, I would recommend this type of training to anyone who is interested in having a well behaved, reliable dog; and I know that this was absolutely the best investment that I could have made for my dog. Worth every penny.

Here is a great video about e-collars from Leerburg: http://leerburg.com/remote.htm. The link also has many articles discussing remote collar training. Take a look, and then you can make an informed decision IF this is something for you and your pup. Good luck and best wishes.

Also, I'd like to add that I completely agree with Ed Frawley in that the e-collar is the greatest dog training tool ever invented, AND it is also the most misused tool, because the average person does not take the time to learn how to use it properly. When used properly it IS the greatest off-leash control tool you could ever use.

 

[SWECC]

In Sweden e-collars and prong-collars are illegal to use, classifies as animal cruelty and is punishable by law.

So for me, as a swede very unaccustomed with the use of e-collars, it's sounds a bit too much for a puppy.

I think if used responsible E-collars would be great for training an adult dog in some cases. It sounds very good to be able to "communicate" with the dog from a distance to prevent a unwanted, maybe dangerous, behavior.

 

[terzo corso]

How many finished dogs has she shown you so far?

By finished......I'm talking about dogs trained through her program, who no longer wear or need e-collar.

Off-leash trained.......means no e-collar, would you agree?

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[musicdeb]

For me personally, e collars can be very harmful to the dog's behavior, meaning it can cause fear aggression if not used properly. I would ask for references and talk to others who have used this trainer.

I'm all for positive reinforcement and use of the e collar is a good tool if you have a hard dog, like a GSD for example.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I don't have an issue with them as long as the puppy knows the commands completely. If the dog doesn't then it is not fair to correct for something they do not know. I also agree with Terzo I want to see finished dogs without collars on that listen and more than one. Too many people rely on tools for fast results to get results instead of prodding their dogs to ensure they understand and can perform the command without hesitation.


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[musicdeb]

Well said, Mary...

 

[Hector]

Make sure you go through the different phases of training.

1. Learning phase (reinforcement, consistency, repetition)
2. Proofing phase (work your way up to different levels of distractions)
3. Corrective phase (maintenance)

I wonder if you are going to do any training yourself using a leash prior to using an e-collar? Just make sure to layer the e-collar with on leash training that way he won't just listen with an e-collar on and not know what to do when a leash is put on.

 

[kguitarchic18]

This is how we trained zola and it worked great. We didn't start her until she was around 4-5 months, and we dropped her off we the trainer for a 3 week boarding/training. But you have to use the collar correctly, and not overuse. Like others have mentioned, there is a correct way to use it, and then there are people who abuse it and shock the crap outta the dog and I don't agree with that. Honestly I have shocked myself before and it really doesnt hurt, its like an odd tingle sensation. When they are younger, you usually keep the collar at a lower level as well, they go from 1-135. So there is a wide range to tailor to what works with your dog. The idea is that you train with the collar, and eventually they will act the same with or without it.

Zola was a little crazy before we had her trained, and when we got her back she was a new dog. We still work with her everyday, as training is continuous learning.

 

[fixitlouie]

I believe in e-collar. Most have a tone too. Its all in its application.I hunt with world class dogs and handlers. All use collars.I have one too.

 

[fixitlouie]

6 months might be alittle young but old enuff to understand simple commands. My dog trainer starts training working dogs at 8 months.

 

[ruthcatrin]

USED CORRECTLY (the key words) an e-collar doesn't do any harm and does a great deal of good. BUT, they aren't for all dogs either, and a trainer who insists on using them on ALL dogs worries me.

See above comments about seeing fully trained dogs who no longer need an ecollar for work. In a fully trained dog the only time an ecollar should be nessecary is when the dog is working at long distance (such as hunting dogs), when yelling just isn't reasonable.

Also see above comments about leash work. An ecollar responsive dog is nice and all, but leash skills are both the basics and nessecary in today's world.

 

[sjdavenport]

I really appreciate all of the responses. It's given me a lot to think about, but I'm still torn! I'll try to answer some of the above questions. Yes, I do a lot of his training at home myself, including on the leash. So far, he knows sit, down, sit/stay (down/stay is another story, lol), leave it, drop it (ESPECIALLY with his chews), watch me, waiting at doorways, and sitting and waiting for his food. So while I'm able to do a lot of training at home, I've always liked taking formal weekly classes with my dogs. It kind of keeps me on track and makes sure I really am working with them and making progress each week (and I've always picked up some great new tips in each class). He went with me to work every day over the summer, so he was introduced to the leash from day one. Loose leash walking is probably the most important thing to me, and is the main reason I'm even considering this trainer's program (along with a really solid recall). I like to walk all three of my dogs at the same time, and before the puppy even came along, I was already walking more than my own body weight in dogs (Mazey - a pit bull, and Atlas - a Dane/boxer/bulldog???mix). So with the addition of the puppy, I will soon be walking dogs who total at least twice my weight, and that is why it is SO important to me to have really good control of the new baby. My pit bull is an absolute dream to work with, absolutely lives to please me, and I trust her completely to do anything I ask. I say jump, she says how high. Atlas is also really, really well behaved, and is pretty much bombproof. I'm just using a flat nylon collar right now to walk the puppy. Our typical walks currently consist of my older dogs staying in a nice, loose leash heel at my left, with Rhaegar kind of meandering about and zig zagging, although he does actually have a slack leash about 70% of the time so far (his weakness is pulling towards other dogs). And my goal is, of course, to not use the e collar once done training - I have absolutely no intentions to just continuously forever. So, for those of you who did train your dogs with these methods, how high of a stimulation did you find was necessary for your dog, and how long did you find you had to use it before fading it out? Do you find that they are less inclined to listen to you when they know they aren't wearing the e collar? What was their response when they received the first stimulation - fearful, confused? Does anyone have any personal experiences with e collar use actually having significant negative impacts on the dog - particularly a fear aggression type reaction? And I too, am still quite concerned that she requires it for EVERY dog in her off lead program. What other questions would you ask the trainer? I've already emailed her like 6 times, I'm sure she's getting tired of me, so I'd rather get all of my questions together now and just sent one longer email than to keep bugging her. I live an hour away from her, but she's already offered to let me come meet with her and feel the collar stimulations and talk with her more about it. Should I also insist on seeing some of the dogs she's worked with in person, or would her many videos suffice? Thanks so much for wading through my massively long messages! I'm just really worried about creating a fear problem with baby Rhaegar from the collar.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Did you do the training on your other dogs yourself?

 

[sjdavenport]

I did the initial basic training with my other dogs myself. They were seven and five years old before I ever stepped foot into a formal training class. I took the first one as a way to get my cousin to go with her obnoxious, out of control dog. I found that I really enjoyed it, and it improved my dogs’ focus, especially around groups of dogs. I also found it to be helpful to fine tune some behaviors. So now, between the two dogs, I’ve taken five or six classes up through intro to rally (just for fun and confidence building.)

 

[ruthcatrin]

DOes the trainer use the ecollar in her other classes and what other classes does she offer?

Depending on what else she offers, if the ecollar is the big sticking point to that one class, then maybe take the pup through one of her other classes to get a feel for her and her training style and handling methods?

 

[kguitarchic18]

I have never had any issues with Zola and the collar. Honestly, we have been slacking a little with staying on top of her, so I feel like she is testing us to see what she can get away with, and when the collar isnt on, and she is wild.... she doesnt listen. But she just turned one. Our trainer said they go from 0-to say 75% really quickly.... its getting from that 75% to 100% that takes time and patience and consistent training/maintenance. He said usually around 2 he sees the dogs really shape up into place, because at this age they are still puppy.

As zola got older, I could tell the collar level needed to be adjusted as well. Dogs are so hard headed, and sometimes so resistant to the collar as well, it doesn't always work. I have had Zola in the back yard, and with the quiet command (her barking is a big issue right now, everything else is pretty good) I had the collar turned up to the highest level and it didnt even phase her. So I don't think, as long as you are using the collar correctly and at the appropriate level for your dog, it will not cause any fear or agression issues. I think more dogs turn aggressive or have fear from people screaming at them. Our trainer almost whispers the commands, and with him Zola is on point and running to her "place".

But we also had family members that weren't trained on how to use the collar, and thought that just shocking the dog when it didn't listen was the answer, its not. The training methods come first, the collar is just a tool to use with the training, it doesn't do the training for you. Does that make sense?