So Excited!!!

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

We just got the news the CFC and AgriCanada has full recognized the breed here in Canada! We finally have a registry in Canada for our breed!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Wooohooo!

 

[grazefull1]

good it nice to c they count too

 

[Cody]

My question is what international registries recognize this? Does the AKC? What will be needed to register?
Although I will register with the CFC (why not really, we already have ICCF, AKC, UKC, CKC... What's another registry ) I really think the breed clubs here also need to make people aware that they can register their dogs with the CKC (yes I know is a misc #) but with such can compete and show. It seems there is a HUGE lack of knowledge about that in Eastern Canada. Besides Paul that is, I believe he is the only one from Ontario to Halifax that is showing CKC.
Since there is only three, correct me if I am wrong, shows a year for the CFC, 2 of which are around Halifax and one in Montreal, how will registering aid those of us not based in Eastern Canada?
Which standard is being used for the CFC? The original that the CKC has accepted or the 343?
And my last question, is to obtain a CFC Ch does one have to "beat" any other dogs of the same breed?

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Cody I will forward your questions on to our rep with the CFC as we are expecting the questions in regards to the acceptance just to ensure I have answered them all correctly

It is my understanding that the CKC actually accepts the CFC paperwork to get a Misc # and now that the acceptance is solidified I believe the next step is a reciprocal agreement with the AKC and the FCI countries. But the CFC is Canadian and it gives us as Canadians an option to register our dogs with a Canadian registry and to have the book opened here in Canada. We are more than aware that we can show CKC on this end of the country, and Paul and Alicia have been working their butts off to promote the breed out here, as well as a couple of owners with dogs from Roy of El Mesquital that you might not know of. I can say that with 2 young children I have been a little slack but hope to change that in 2013. The kennels in Ontario and QC know they can show CKC, if they chose not to that is their choice there are a lot that aren't showing at all so if they chose to show Rarities then at least they are showing something.

There are usually at least 2 shows in our area (there might be 3 or more this year depending on the interest), one or two in Quebec (not sure of the numbers as the site isn't updated). The reason there are no shows out west is the simple fact, like the CKC there has to be a club that is interested in hosting an event. With their being so many CKC events in the Western part of the country (and perhaps this is the case from ON westward) there are enough CKC shows so no one is interested in hosting one. If clubs form out there to host the shows then I think the CFC assigns a rep to help get the ball going.

The standard being used for the breed is on the clubs website and is not the 343.

LOL! Yes Cody you must beat other dogs to get your Championship. It is judged in the same format that a FCI style show is. The order of judging will be as follows:

Elementary Puppy Male
Elementary Puppy Female
Best Elementary Puppy

Puppy Male
Puppy Female
Best Puppy

Junior Male
Junior Female
Best Junior

MALES
Intermediate
Open
Working
Winners Male
Champion
Veteran

FEMALES
Intermediate
Open
Working
Winners Female
Champion
Veteran

BEST OF BREED (Winners Male, Winners Champion Male, Winners Female, Winners Champion
Female, Best Junior)
BEST VETERAN OF BREED (Veteran Male & Veteran Female)
BEST PUPPY OF BREED (Best Elementary Puppy, Best Puppy)

So for example the opens - all open males are brought in the ring. The judge has them go around and line up, each is then pulled from the line and the judge will write a written critique on that particular dog against the standard, where a rating is given, Excellent, VG, Good, Fair and Poor. She does this for all the open males and then the stack and gait around like a typical show and she picks best open male. Then the same is repeated for the females. This is done for all classes and then the compete against each other for BOB, BVOB and BPOB. It should be noted that you can take breed and not get a win during that show as you need to have 3 Excellent ratings and 3 CACS cards under 3 different judges in order to get a championship. Then they go on to compete in the group again others in the group. So depending on your breed and then number of entries in each class you can be competing against several dogs. The best part is you can be a junior champion and the minute your dog reaches 15 months your Junior Championship title is a past tense title, you were a Junior champion and that was all, you then have to compete against adult dogs and prove your dog did not fall apart after getting a Junior championship to obtain a Championship title that sticks.

 

[Cody]

Thank you for the information Mary, but in regards to the showing, what happens if there are no other dogs?
If the judge still rates your dog as excellent, and there are 4 shows in a weekend, you could technically still CH in that weekend?
When I speak to ppl in Ontario they are surprised that I am showing CKC. I can't tell you how many times I have explained how to get a CKC # lol.
I just think there needs to be more promoting, especially with breeders.
I know Paul has been out, he is doing very well too. Is fantastic.
Also will the AKC accept the CFC registration if a show pup is sold to the USA?
I looked on the website and saw little info...

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

No problem!

You are completely correct if there are no others in your breed and the judge gives you an Excellent and a CACS card then you could get a championship pretty quickly but that in the end is the judging discretion and it is their right to with-hold the card if they don’t feel like awarding for only one dog, it is a lot like if a CKC judge decides there is a lack of merit in the ring and doesn’t award breed/ribbons. When it comes to judges it is their prerogative, but to me it is no different than people entering their other dogs that have glaring faults in the CKC just to ensure they get the 2 point major that is required to get a championship title. There are good and bad points I think to both shows, one of my biggest issues with CKC is you can Champion a puppy and the Champion title sticks with the dog for life no matter if it falls apart after a year, and there are more than a few examples of that happening.

Perhaps there are people in Ont. that are still unaware they can show CKC but the ones I have talked to are aware of it. If I come across someone that asks I tell them they are able to and the process. In the end if people aren’t interested in showing CKC there is little that can be done to make them do so. With the breed being listed with the CKC but not fully recognized there are some that view it simply as a money grab as the dogs while they can earn titles can’t be registered fully and no puppies/litters can be fully registered, although they can apply for Misc. #s and show/work their dogs. Some would sooner support shows and a registry that can provide for their needs. In the end they are show titles to me and while they are nice to have I don’t know too many breeders who live or die by them, I am as happy to see people working their dogs or doing companion events as much as conformation, as long as they are doing something then who am I to judge.

Sorry I thought I had mentioned above about the reciprocal agreements but there are currently none signed with the AKC (at least to the best of my knowledge) but before then no one was in compliance with the Livestock Pedigree Act that anything listed as a purebred must be in compliance with to be bred and sold as a purebred. I will add this question as one for the rep to look into and let you know what she finds out.

Paul, Alicia, Tara and Susan have been doing great at getting out and showcasing the breed in our area and we have had great positive feed back.

Website will be getting an overhaul in the next couple of weeks I believe.

 

[Cody]

Once and if the Corso is fully recognized the misc numbers will be converted to full registration.
There is no real difference between misc and full to be honest, except wording
With the CKC, if both parents have a misc number, you can register litters. Yes they have have misc in front of their number, but registration is registration. It carries the same benefits as full registration, plus is recognized by accredited registries world wide. Meaning you can also take that misc registration number and cross register with the AKC if pups are going "across the line" as my Grandma used to say.
So I am a little confused by your statement about "a registry that can provide for their needs" What does the CFC offer that the CKC doesn't? Beside's not have the letters MISC in front of the number on the registration paper?
Don't get me wrong, I will register with the CFC, like I said earlier, why not. I am just wondering what the value it holds, as far as the bigger picture is concerned. Before I start writing and sending cheques
And I agree, stacking shows with dogs to get pts is poor sportsmanship, as is pulling your dog when it is getting consecutively beaten by another dog, alas such is the world of dogs shows Not many in Canada that are showing have the number of dogs to stack shows however, at least in the Corso world at this time.
Also does the CFC recognize CKC or AKC Ch in it's registry?
Sorry just questions, I know you probably don't have the answers yet, I am just putting them out there for when the time comes.

I also FULLY AGREE that young pups under 12 months should not be getting their CH. At a year you have a pretty good idea of what that dog will become. If for example, a 12 month old is beating mature dogs in the ring, well then maybe there is merit to that. But yes, I have seen really nice pups that structurally fall to pieces by 1. It is sad when it happens but is part of owing/showing/working/breeding dogs. Never know what one has really
But then that is also up to the breeder, if a dog does fall apart regardless if it has it's CH or not, the breeder has to be able to objectively look at that dog and decide if it can honestly validate using in a program or would be best to spay/neuter and keep as a pet or home as a pet. The trouble is too many look at the dog that A-they bought and paid a fair amount for as a breed quality dog or B- They really love their dog or C- A combination of the 2 and breed it any way... But that is a conversation in regards to ethics/morals of breeding.
The CFC is definitely interesting. I would show there as well if it were near to me, but I won't be travelling across the country to do it... Unless of course Indiveri was coming to judge
I think that is great what the Del Ecousse team is doing out there! Paul's recent litter is looking great and really making some waves! They have some really big firsts for the CC in Canada with his group placements and the 2 Best Baby Puppy in Show It is truly awesome!

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

You have hit the nail on the head with this statement...

Once and IF the Corso is fully recognized the misc numbers will be converted to full registration.

If the CKC is ever allowed to fully recognize any new breeds, which at this point doesn't look like it will be in my lifetime unless there is some major shuffling in the government, then you are correct. As it stands this will not happen unless the CKC complies with the government's demands which if I understand correctly simply can not happen (whether the CKC members wish it to or not) as to do so would completely bankrupt the CKC and as they are still working on keeping financially afloat as it is, it is certainly not in the foreseeable future. If that isn't accurate then I apologize for my incorrect information.

You are right you can register a litter and puppy provided both parent are registered or eligible for Misc registration number and you would be able to compete but it isn't the exact same thing and shouldn't be treated as such. You aren't able to obtain full registration and a pedigree with Misc # registration (was in contact with the CKC today to verify this information to ensure it was accurate)which is important for breeding purposes. I do not think the AKC recognizes the CKC Miscellaneous registration/numbers for cross registration purposes in the US (at least that is what the CKC customer service rep told me as they don't recognize the AKC-FSS papers in the CKC either) but I will contact the AKC just to ensure my information is accurate. The CFC allows us an open book for the breed, complete registration papers and a pedigree that is in compliance with the animal pedigree act, you may see it as only wording but for us that are breeding it is important to be in compliance with the animal pedigree act.

If you don't feel it is of value to you then that is entirely your right to chose not to register that way and I am sure that it won't affect you either way.

You are right show politics, what is good sportsmanship or underhanded tactics, Cane Corso breed politics and the ethics/morals of what is being bred in some kennels is a discussion best left to the corso boards that are currently discussing it. Best the rest of the world not see how crazy the show/breed passionate people are.

The CFC does accept AKC, UKC and any FCI membership country.

It is no trouble, ask all the questions you have it will help us prepare our FAQ for others that are interested in the breed so feel free to ask away and I will add them to our list and ensure that I have given the correct answers to you.

As the club is in charge of judge selection I am afraid that it would be a lot like choosing CKC judges in that it would have to depend on what he is licensed to judge. You are right Paul and the ladies are doing great and plan to continue to do so but I will pass on your regards.

 

[Cody]

Lol, do you know who you spoke with at the CKC this morning? Funny enough I was on the phone with them as well.
I did discuss the difference in registering litters with the woman in charge of the misc/listed breeds, who ensured me at this point is just wording. But at times there are different answers depending on who you talk to there. However, I have had multiple conversations with her, and she has been awesome to deal win and beyond fair with me so I tend to trust her
For registering a dog with a MISC # in the AKC, if parents have AKC #'s as well it is doable. Due to the position the CKC is in, i believe they tend to be more lenient with the breeds that are listed but unable to be given full recognition. I know of a few breeders who have done so without issue.
To be honest Mary, what makes me nervous is this; getting the CKC number is a PIA, we know that. Many loop holes to jump through. However, FCI/FCPR papers are not . We both know of "breeders" who have these papers on dogs that shouldn't by using the now defunct FIC to receive them. With being able to now register with the CFC then onto the CKC, an entire new version of the "Rustic" tragidy may/has very well been brought back, even worse however is the surge of "respectability" that will be claimed by having legit paper work.
Do you see where I am going.
Looking at he CFC forms on line there didn't seem to be that much to them.
So, here is another question, if I may ask you personally as a breeder, since this happened after you had your first litter what steps did you take to be in compliance with the animal pedigree act? What registries did you use to register the litter you produced?
No worries about passing along my regards, I chatted with Paul not that long ago and did so myself, but thank you

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Cody, I have spoken on the phone to Louise and been in email contact with Amee and Teresa in regards registering litters Misc and each puppy getting their Misc # application. Yesterday's email was the same as previous ones where I was told that I can register a litter as a Misc litter and then each puppy would receive an application to apply for their individual Misc # but that did not mean that they would receive registration papers or a pedigree. I still have an email out to her in regards to cross registration with Misc #/registration as well as the AKC just to make sure my information from both sides is completely accurate. The CKC trying to allow loopholes so that they can provide the service for listed breeds can end up with them being in hot water which is why they are very careful about wording when responding to emails/calling them and is probably why there is not consistency in answers between what you are hearing and what I am hearing.

If the parents both have complete registration with the AKC of course you are able to register a puppy through them as there is no registry that they AKC currently recognizes here in Canada providing the service. They would register the puppy on that fact not on accepting the Misc #/registration, if there becomes a reciprocal agreement with the CFC and the AKC I suspect you would find that would change but I can always check with the AKC.

I don't understand how it is any different from using the FCI/FCPR papers to get AKC registration and then apply for a Misc # is any different than them being able to use them to get CFC papers but perhaps I am not understanding you correctly. Like any other registry there are rules of eligibilty for a dog to be admitted into it (similiar I think to those that were in place for AKC-FSS) I don't know that the document has been added to the site or the CFC site yet but I will contact Paul and see what he wants to do with the rules of Eligibility so that people can see what is require for their dogs to be eligible for registration. I don't think that if people want to claim their dogs are registered they will do so with the ICCF, AKC, CFC or CKC and there is little to do to stop them regardless of which club/registry you chose to support as there are as many dogs that are registered with each of those registries now that some might deem no better than BYBers. These are registries, they have guidelines in place but they do not police breeds to ensure that each one is completely healthy, looks like it should and is stable to be registered, as much as we might with it to be so otherwise there would be a lot fewer dogs registered.

Litters that were born in the past I don't think have any way to comply with the act as we were not accepted previously. My litter as well as well as each individual puppy is registered with the AKC as both of their parents have complete AKC registration.

Cody you are obviously very Pro CKC and that is great but there are some that want a different option that provides us with the registration and pedigree that is accepted across Canada and hopefully with the AKC and FCI Membership countries in the future. As I said before if it holds no value for you then don't do it as I it won't affect you either way.

I hope I have answered what you wanted answered. If you have any further questions perhaps you can ask them on the club's FB page as I will be limited in my computer access for the next 3 days due to some work scheduling, but there will be others that can provide the answers you are looking for in a timely manner, in case the answers should be up more questions.

Cheers.

 

[Cody]

Sure Mary.
There is only one question that wasn't answered, which standard is the CFC using for the Corso in Canada?
Hopefully you will be able to respond to this.
I am not pro CKC or any other registry, nor am I for or against either of the breed clubs here in Canada. As the CFC, although is legit, has only 5 now 6 breeds, it is not recognised world wide.
You are right a registry is a registry, the concern I have is using the most recognised and legit is important IMO.
In fact it would be nice, and helpful IMO if everyone could work together rather then have one club that seems to represent the West and one that does the East. A combined club that represents the breed in this country would be ideal.
As it stands getting the CKC # is a hassle, many won't do it, making it easier has it ups and downs.
Many so called breeders won't bother as it takes time and money.
Thank you for your replies.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Sorry thought I had answered above... guess I should take more time to read what I am typing. We are using the old ENCI standard... you can view it on the site as it is the same one that we have used since inception in 1996.

http://www.canecorsoclubofcanada.ca/BreedInfo.html

 

[Cody]

Sorry thought I had answered above... guess I should take more time to read what I am typing. We are using the old ENCI standard... you can view it on the site as it is the same one that we have used since inception in 1996.

http://www.canecorsoclubofcanada.ca/BreedInfo.html

Cool, so is the same one as the CKC is using
At least both are on the same page for that
Thank you

 

[Kelly]

The AKC uses a different standard, right? Im totally confused when it comes to those standards, I do like to see breeders keep to the standard regarding size. I think it's important the dog is kept athletic over being bred to be huge. I noticed Mary's dogs are on the smaller size which is why I flagged her site years ago when I first started looking at breeders.

 

[Cody]

Size, lol...
Not many males fit into the weight restrictions in the current standard.
A male that stands 27.5 " (as is in the standard) that weighs the max 110 lbs would not be a balanced dog, or athletic really. It would lack in bone, substance, muscle... IMO would actually look more great Danish then CC. It would have to be more leggy to get to that height with that weight.
I have not met many males that fit into the standard. Females yes.
I believe Mary's both do as does mine, but Oak (the sire of her litter) does not. At least when I met him at 1 he didn't
The AKC says weight proportionate to height, a balanced dog.
Many Italians are striving to have that changed in their standard as well, as it does not adequately portray the breed as I is.
Even European/Italian judges put up larger, balanced dogs when judging here.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

The AKC uses a different standard, right? Im totally confused when it comes to those standards, I do like to see breeders keep to the standard regarding size. I think it's important the dog is kept athletic over being bred to be huge. I noticed Mary's dogs are on the smaller size which is why I flagged her site years ago when I first started looking at breeders.

Hi Kelly! Thanks we are happy with our starting point.

Weight/height is always some debated within the standard. Both mature females are within standard as far as weight. I think Danae might be 26.5" but she is a bit of a wiggler so can't say 100% on that. Puppies I have no idea on the weight on as I haven't weighted them since the summer While most males at least don't fit the standard to me it is about being proportionate and balanced but I also think that some of larger males that are produced have no way of being balanced with the amount of weight they are carrying. So when breeding we try to keep in the back of our mind that we probably won't have all our dogs in the weight ranges for the standard we do not want to lose the balance that makes our breed what it is. That is the problem I think, the judges assume bigger is better regardless if the dog is balanced and correct. They see the bigger dog and that must be the right on If you want to see something that is a little sad for our breed watch the breed judging at the Eukanuba National dog show It was disheartening to see more than a few of those corsi in the ring.

 

[Alla Zilberg]

I never post on forums, but this really draw my attention.

First, Mary - BIG congrats on this achievement! I know you work hard for the breed and represent it well and do lots to move it forward. Again - Congrats! this is just the beginning!

Second - I have a male that DOES fit the CKC standard. He is NOT "danish" looking. He actually has perfect structure, lots of muscle, thick bone and is a littermate (and a twin brother as my breeder says) to the Westminster's 2012 BOB winner and currently the #1 Cane Corso dog in AKC - Liberty's Armed and Dangerous. He can also move beautifully that seems to be rather a luxury in the breed lately, as well as excels in sports.

I have also met a number of males from very reputable breeders who are AKC champions and DO fit CKC standard. Beautiful dogs, btw, that can move!

You are right - unfortunately, judges often do see bigger as better and place a less balanced dog with poor movement over a quality dog. But this is just a matter of time and educating the judges, and I am sure that people like Mary working hard at preserving the breed and educating those new to the breed.

 

[Cody]

I never post on forums, but this really draw my attention.

First, Mary - BIG congrats on this achievement! I know you work hard for the breed and represent it well and do lots to move it forward. Again - Congrats! this is just the beginning!

Second - I have a male that DOES fit the CKC standard. He is NOT "danish" looking. He actually has perfect structure, lots of muscle, thick bone and is a littermate (and a twin brother as my breeder says) to the Westminster's 2012 BOB winner and currently the #1 Cane Corso dog in AKC - Liberty's Armed and Dangerous. He can also move beautifully that seems to be rather a luxury in the breed lately, as well as excels in sports.

I have also met a number of males from very reputable breeders who are AKC champions and DO fit CKC standard. Beautiful dogs, btw, that can move!

You are right - unfortunately, judges often do see bigger as better and place a less balanced dog with poor movement over a quality dog. But this is just a matter of time and educating the judges, and I am sure that people like Mary working hard at preserving the breed and educating those new to the breed.

Is Safir 110lbs or under?
I wouldn't have guessed, he is not however 27", which is what I was referring to.
I did say there are "not many" males, different from NO males. I am curious where you met a number of males under 110 lbs and if they were full grown, I have not met many at all.

 

[Alla Zilberg]

In New York, cody. I don't believe you ever traveled that way? Does that satisfy your "curiosity"?
And no, Safir is not 27. I said he fits the standard. I did not say he barely makes it into the standard. You would not have guessed my dog is "110 or under"? Well, I guess that leaves him at over 110lb...lmao
Oh you might look at, lets say, Amore, website - he has males that fit the standard.
You stated "I have not met many males that fit into the standard." In fact, there are a number of males that are under 110lb out there - all balanced and fit the standard, just FYI...