Positive reinforcement training??!@!

[Atlas_Mama]

Atlas Mama, it just depends where you draw the line in how much pain you want to inflict on your dog to train it. Prong collars, shock collars choke chains etc can work if your timing is bang on and your dog learns what you are trying to teach it. If for example, you use a prong collar to stop the dog from pulling, but are still giving "corrections" a week, or a month later then the dog is not learning not to pull and all you are doing is physically abusing your dog.

With reward based training, as Jadotha mentioned, treats should be phased out and only the best behaviours are reinforced. If you're dog is only doing what you ask because you have a treat, you are bribing, not reinforcing.

The method of training you use is entirely where your values lie in relation to your dog. One of the principal rules of any aversive training is that the dog cannot associate the handler with the punishment or the dog learns that you cause the pain and it will effect your relationship with him.

Aversive training techniques work, but I don't use them as I don't see them as being necessary and i don't want to teach people to hurt their dogs.

I hope this helps, do your research and do what fits with you.

Honestly I dont like using the prong either- but it worked so I didnt have to pull on it once he realized it was on. And the pulling is usually only when he is running towards something to chase it- like a dog-- he is a good walker. At home when I work with my dogs I never use treats. I just give them good loving, and sweet talk- when they do good behavior. And a stern- no- when they show bad behaviors- even when I am in training- I usually only give the treat reward while in the classes.

 

[Robtouw]

I hate pronged collars due to a past experience with my german shepherd. He wore one because he was extremely energetic and hard to control even after a year of professional training. We were transporting him from my moms house to a friends home for a visit. We were hit by a drunk driver and our vehicle overturned. Both my shepherd and my rotti were thrown from the back of my montero after the windows shattered. Lasco's pronged collar basically imbedded itself into his neck and had to be surgically removed. Freak accident, I know, but you never know what could happen.

My current pup was initially trained using positive reinforcement and treats. We now incorporate training into his everyday routine and the treat is our attention. We over do hugs and chest scratches when he responds in the way we are asking and he loves it! He is a very kissy dog!

 

[ruthcatrin]

I hate pronged collars due to a past experience with my german shepherd. He wore one because he was extremely energetic and hard to control even after a year of professional training. We were transporting him from my moms house to a friends home for a visit. We were hit by a drunk driver and our vehicle overturned. Both my shepherd and my rotti were thrown from the back of my montero after the windows shattered. Lasco's pronged collar basically imbedded itself into his neck and had to be surgically removed. Freak accident, I know, but you never know what could happen.

Which is why you NEVER LEAVE IT ON THE DOG UNLESS YOU'RE ACTUALLY ATTACHED TO THE LEASH. Same thing with a choke, NEVER JUST LEAVE IT ON THE DOG. The only time anything other than a plain buckle/slip collar should be on a dog is when you're actively working the dog, I don't care if its 5 minutes down the road, I don't care if its just for a minute in the house, do NOT leave it on the dog unless you're actively using it. Not unless you're TRYING to kill your dog!

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I completely agree with Ruth there is a mid-point and end of the spectrum trainers either way are not one I use. I like trainers who aren't afraid to learn something with each new dog in their class and possibly apply it if they should have another one like it again. I also agree that completely positive doesn't work with our dogs either. We use only positive methods to teach a puppy (or adult dog new to the situation) the desired behaviour until we are sure that they know what they are supposed to be doing when they are asked to do it. Once we are sure if they are asked to do something and it isn't done then there is a correction for it. It can be something as simple as withhold a good boy for a lot of these dogs that are really handler sensitive to a pop on the collar depending on the dog.

Here is the way I see it, they are all training tools and what works on one might not work on others. We have dogs you can use a flat on and get the desired behaviour, some you can use a fur saver, and some you can use a prong on. Not all require a prong and not all will give the desired results on a flat. That being said we use the "training" collars strictly when training (whether we are walking in a new environment and need to ensure the reaction happens exactly when I ask it or if we are heading to dog class), while at home they are switched back to flat collars. No matter what type of mastiff you have they can get collar smart to any type of collar so it is important to understand that although these will help you get the control you need immediately, really working on the training to ensure that you have the control with or without a collar. Never let someone make you feel bad for using what works and if you find the trainers aren't the type you can work with then move on and find one that suits what you are looking for. You are the one around your dog daily, you can see which methods the dog responds to and use what works, trainers aren't infallible but some aren't willing to learn once they think they have found the best way.

We are in the same boat (yes I own dogs that aren't perfectly trained and the love to show it when we are in public at times), we have some smart ass dogs that I still have to be on top of (***cough...Hemi...*** cough... Sequoia...***) and some that would do anything just to get a good dog and all varying in ages so know that whether they are 5 mths or 5 years training is a continuing thing that you will have to stay on top of. If you have an easy keeper maybe not as much as a smart ass but only you will be able to determine that after some time.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Like this very much!!

 

[sethmp]

We had to go to a prong collar. Porter was pulling so much with the choke collar that we know he was really choking himself to the point of it potentially becoming a problem. We went to the prong collar during training and it worked a lot better. As our trainer explained, the pinching of the collar replicates the pinching of the mother where as the choke collar can do damage to the throat/esophagus. Not sure how accurate that statement is, but like i said the prong collar is much more effective than the choke collar for us

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

We had to go to a prong collar. Porter was pulling so much with the choke collar that we know he was really choking himself to the point of it potentially becoming a problem. We went to the prong collar during training and it worked a lot better. As our trainer explained, the pinching of the collar replicates the pinching of the mother where as the choke collar can do damage to the throat/esophagus. Not sure how accurate that statement is, but like i said the prong collar is much more effective than the choke collar for us

There is no evidence that it replicates a bite. The prong clooar works because it hurts and your dog stops pulling to avoid being hurt.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

There is no evidence that it replicates a bite. The prong clooar works because it hurts and your dog stops pulling to avoid being hurt.

A prong collar when used correctly doesn't hurt. At best, in a hard correction, it makes them uncomfortable but it doesn't hurt and if I am giving a hard correction I want them uncomfortable as they are doing something that is potentially dangerous and completely unacceptable! (and for those asking yes I had it used on my bare leg and a hard correction as I used to agree they were nasty looking and I wouldn't use them ever)

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I use the Prong on Thor sometimes for example when I go to stores only because he "forgets" otherwise I walk him in his flat buckle collar. Stone is just walked and trained in his flat buckle collar. Although I can tell when he gets older he's going to need a prong lesson.......

Prongs aren't bad I hate when people give me evil looks because my boy had one on. One technician took it upon herself to take it off Thor after she came out of the back room. Needless to say it PI$$ED me off. People use "positive reinforcement" just like "natural horsemanship" for a sales pitch. I am not saying that everyone does, but just something to keep in mind. A prong is a training tool nothing more ar less and only "dangerous" as the people who use them.

I see dog's wearing the prong dragging their people all over the place. Its not the dog nor the prong but the dead weight of an owner attached to it.

I agree with blackshadow all our dogs are not perfect, and adjust to different methods just find one that works best for you. If your not comfortable say so and move on.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Most people don't notice it on Apollo, all that fluff is good for something . I did use one briefly on Arty, he went through a phase of trying to choke himself on his collar everytime he wanted to go in a different direction than me. 3 days of using a prong every time the leash went on and he no longer tries to choke himself no matter what collar I have him in. He's not perfect on a leash yet, but the rest of it can be done with his martingale now that he realizes that choking is bad. Apollo's a bit more stubborn, and driven differently (to put it mildly).

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I use the Prong on Thor sometimes for example when I go to stores only because he "forgets" otherwise I walk him in his flat buckle collar. Stone is just walked and trained in his flat buckle collar. Although I can tell when he gets older he's going to need a prong lesson.......

Prongs aren't bad I hate when people give me evil looks because my boy had one on. One technician took it upon herself to take it off Thor after she came out of the back room. Needless to say it PI$$ED me off. People use "positive reinforcement" just like "natural horsemanship" for a sales pitch. I am not saying that everyone does, but just something to keep in mind. ore ar A prong is a training tool nothing mless and only "dangerous" as the people who use them.

I see dog's wearing the prong dragging their people all over the place. Its not the dog nor the prong but the dead weight of an owner attached to it.

I agree with blackshadow all our dogs are not perfect, and adjust to different methods just find one that works best for you. If your not comfortable say so and move on.

I thought this needed to be seen!

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

So if it doesn't hurt can you explain the science behind how it works?

 

[Atlas_Mama]

I thought this needed to be seen!

i do agree it has to do with the person using the tool. Like i mentioned-when Atlas wore it we never had to use the pull function, and if we did it was lightly to get his attention. i would never pull it so hard that he would cry. Although in my training session and my previous trainer Atlas looked away- and the trainer popped the mess out of that collar on my boy and he yelped and cried and twisted himself around and made a scene. The trainer told me my puppy was spoiled and was just wanting his way and it wasnt hurting him. I was almost in tears and said i cant stand hearing or seeing my boy in pain. she was like he isnt in pain- dont spoil this dog!!...and thats how it always went in that training.
But he did learn, and didnt pull or lunge at another dog ever again with that on..but it did hurt my heart and i could NEVER do that to him like that trainer did..

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Prongs are made to make the dog uncomfortable by tightening the skin around the neck, not puncturing or damaging the skin/neck area ( the dogs that I have used these on are show dogs (not all but some) and I can assure you if a judge found puncture wounds around the neck of my dog, soreness or any sort of shyness around the area I would have gotten a lecture or questions as to why this was so). If the dog never pulls then it isn’t any more harmful than a flat. If the dog pulls the skin around the dogs’ neck tightens making it uncomfortable, depending on the person doing the correct and how hard it is will depend on how uncomfortable. I am not sure what breed of dogs you have but I can tell you that there are some in my breed that would laugh at having a prong on as their pain thresh-hold is high enough it to them is nothing more than a pesky fly. What science do you have the determines they are being hurt/harmed by these collars?

Please explain how it is any more “painful†to have a dog on a choke chain that damages the larynx, or a head collar that constantly snaps their heads back around (had a friend who’s dog had to see a “canine chiropractor†for using one of these all the time), or a flat that they are choking themselves on constantly. How are these more beneficial to a dog than a prong or e-collar, when used correctly and training so that in the end people don’t have to rely on a collar to be the only control they have over their dog?

You are a dog trainer correct? Do you only advocate using one method or using what works for each individual dog? I haven’t read your blog like some of the others have but I did read the post on teaching our mastiff to essentially act like labs and I am curious as to what methods you might apply that would work better than what others are using here.

 

[Atlas_Mama]

So if it doesn't hurt can you explain the science behind how it works?

i was told- it gets his attention its more of a jerking. but not "pain". thats what sold me on allowing the trainer convince me to use it...but it worked.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Although in my training session and my previous trainer Atlas looked away- and the trainer popped the mess out of that collar on my boy and he yelped and cried and twisted himself around and made a scene. The trainer told me my puppy was spoiled and was just wanting his way and it wasnt hurting him. I was almost in tears and said i cant stand hearing or seeing my boy in pain. she was like he isnt in pain- dont spoil this dog!!...and thats how it always went in that training..

You're having horrid luck with trainers aren't you? I'm sorry.

I use a prong, and anyone who did that with one in my presence wouldn't be my trainer for long. There are dogs, where in certain situations, that sort of correction is needed to get their attention back, but most young pups aren't that sort, and frankly the dogs its needed on wouldn't react that way either. If Atlas responds to a twitch then thats all you need. It might not be painfull, but it can be uncomfortable if yanked. I did something similer to Jadotha when I first bought on, ecxept on my upper arm, where the skin is thin and sensitive. A hard correction is NOT comfortable, but I didn't even leave a bruise on my inner arm, and I bruise fairly easy.

For a puller, who'll go right on through a choke even when its cutting off his air supply, a prong is far more humane. And I really don't care for head halters after seeing how they work too. I know there are dogs that they work on, and thats fine, but none of the dogs I've worked with were appropriate for one.

Now that you've used a prong for a while how does he do in a regular collar? Or is that why they put him in the harness?

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Prongs are made to make the dog uncomfortable by tightening the skin around the neck, not puncturing or damaging the skin/neck area ( the dogs that I have used these on are show dogs (not all but some) and I can assure you if a judge found puncture wounds around the neck of my dog, soreness or any sort of shyness around the area I would have gotten a lecture or questions as to why this was so). If the dog never pulls then it isn’t any more harmful than a flat. If the dog pulls the skin around the dogs’ neck tightens making it uncomfortable, depending on the person doing the correct and how hard it is will depend on how uncomfortable. I am not sure what breed of dogs you have but I can tell you that there are some in my breed that would laugh at having a prong on as their pain thresh-hold is high enough it to them is nothing more than a pesky fly. What science do you have the determines they are being hurt/harmed by these collars?

Please explain how it is any more “painful†to have a dog on a choke chain that damages the larynx, or a head collar that constantly snaps their heads back around (had a friend who’s dog had to see a “canine chiropractor†for using one of these all the time), or a flat that they are choking themselves on constantly. How are these more beneficial to a dog than a prong or e-collar, when used correctly and training so that in the end people don’t have to rely on a collar to be the only control they have over their dog?

You are a dog trainer correct? Do you only advocate using one method or using what works for each individual dog? I haven’t read your blog like some of the others have but I did read the post on teaching our mastiff to essentially act like labs and I am curious as to what methods you might apply that would work better than what others are using here.

Yes I am a trainer and yes you are right that any type of leash yank, pop, pull, jerk whatever you want to cause it using whatever type of collar or head harness will cause a dog damage.

Big cat trainers who know what they are doing learned years ago that non aversive training was the way to go. If you can teach a killer whale to pee in a cup and a tiger to do party tricks for movies then a dog can be trained to walk on a loose leash, sit, stay, be non reacitve around other dogs using non aversive training. I do think that every dog is different and I'm the first to admit that not every dog responds to the same training but I have a vast array of non aversive training techniques which I use, am very successful and have a high referral and client satisfaction rate. the only reason I say the latter is because if my clients weren't happy, I wouldn't get referred.

Atlas Mom, if you aren't happy doing it, don't do it. Your dog is not your baby but he is your friend. You were right to be concerned about the way the trainer treated your dog. he was acting that way because he was in pain and probably frightened and has now made the association between the prong collar and that amount of pain that he doesn't want it to happen again so he doesn't pull etc. He has learned, has been taught but just not in a way I would use. It's just my opinion based on my working life and everyone is entitled to their own.

 

[Atlas_Mama]

You're having horrid luck with trainers aren't you? I'm sorry.

I use a prong, and anyone who did that with one in my presence wouldn't be my trainer for long. There are dogs, where in certain situations, that sort of correction is needed to get their attention back, but most young pups aren't that sort, and frankly the dogs its needed on wouldn't react that way either. If Atlas responds to a twitch then thats all you need. It might not be painfull, but it can be uncomfortable if yanked. I did something similer to Jadotha when I first bought on, ecxept on my upper arm, where the skin is thin and sensitive. A hard correction is NOT comfortable, but I didn't even leave a bruise on my inner arm, and I bruise fairly easy.

For a puller, who'll go right on through a choke even when its cutting off his air supply, a prong is far more humane. And I really don't care for head halters after seeing how they work too. I know there are dogs that they work on, and thats fine, but none of the dogs I've worked with were appropriate for one.

Now that you've used a prong for a while how does he do in a regular collar? Or is that why they put him in the harness?

Yes finding the right training for my boy is turning into a mission. Very frustrating. especially because i would like "group" training as opposed to private home lessons- which in my area seems much easier to find. But this new training says that prong and choke collars are not permitted- so they fitted him with this little dinky looking harness to control his behavior if he has any toward other dogs etc...we walked a little in it- and it seems to do okay- but I dont walk him with that in public or around the house-at home he doesnt wear a collar at all- but when we go for walks outside of my property-or around a lot of people or dogs i still use the prong since i am more comfortable having that secret weapon if God forbid i need to use it if he starts acting out of order in public- which he really hasnt lately. Knock on wood.
But once this new training gets going hopefully i can start feeling more confident with him in public situations with a regular collar- or harness- and i always have to have my treat waist bag ready for these kinds of walks lol

---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

Atlas Mom, if you aren't happy doing it, don't do it. Your dog is not your baby but he is your friend. You were right to be concerned about the way the trainer treated your dog. he was acting that way because he was in pain and probably frightened and has now made the association between the prong collar and that amount of pain that he doesn't want it to happen again so he doesn't pull etc. He has learned, has been taught but just not in a way I would use. It's just my opinion based on my working life and everyone is entitled to their own.

this trainer was very very aggressive- even with me. i kind of felt powerless in what I wanted for my own dog..

 

[Atlas_Mama]

Atlas Mom, if you aren't happy doing it, don't do it. Your dog is not your baby but he is your friend. You were right to be concerned about the way the trainer treated your dog. he was acting that way because he was in pain and probably frightened and has now made the association between the prong collar and that amount of pain that he doesn't want it to happen again so he doesn't pull etc. He has learned, has been taught but just not in a way I would use. It's just my opinion based on my working life and everyone is entitled to their own.

this trainer was very very aggressive- even with me. i kind of felt powerless in what I wanted for my own dog..

 

[Robtouw]

A prong collar when used correctly doesn't hurt. At best, in a hard correction, it makes them uncomfortable but it doesn't hurt

How often have you worn a prong collar and received correction while wearing one?

I have now worked with abused animals for 6 years and have seen what pain people inflict in the name of training and simply refuse to use pain in any degree as a training method. There is always a way to respectfully train an animal, it is up to the owner to experiment and find it. It is not always fun, can be frustrating and at times scary but there is always an answer.

 

[Atlas_Mama]

I hate pronged collars due to a past experience with my german shepherd. He wore one because he was extremely energetic and hard to control even after a year of professional training. We were transporting him from my moms house to a friends home for a visit. We were hit by a drunk driver and our vehicle overturned. Both my shepherd and my rotti were thrown from the back of my montero after the windows shattered. Lasco's pronged collar basically imbedded itself into his neck and had to be surgically removed. Freak accident, I know, but you never know what could happen.

My current pup was initially trained using positive reinforcement and treats. We now incorporate training into his everyday routine and the treat is our attention. We over do hugs and chest scratches when he responds in the way we are asking and he loves it! He is a very kissy dog!

that is a really touching story! glad Lasco ended up being okay- but it is definitely a learning experience for you to share!