Positive reinforcement training??!@!

[Atlas_Mama]

OK- so Atlas is 10 months old now- and we went to a dog training classes for 6 weeks- that claimed to be positive reinforcement based- but as soon as they saw his size mixed with his reactions to the dogs in the class that set me up with a prong collar STAT and he immediately shaped up, and for the entire 6 week course he did well with the prong collar and I have used it ever since- and rarely ever have to enforce the pull.

Do to scheduling conflicts at that school- I just started a new school- and at this school they say they are 100 percent positive training, and prong/choke collars are prohibited and frowned on. Their training is entirely treat and coerce based.

I really don’t know how I feel about this. I mean going to training for me is 90 percent for him to get interaction with new animals, people and environments regardless- but still what is the point of this type of training? I will not always have a dog biscuit in my pocket- nor do I want Atlas to only listen to me if he thinks I will give him a fattening treat. Also- after one class he had gas for hoursssssssssssssss since he had SO MANY TREATS.

I really don’t think I am liking this so far- any other views? Is there a point where we stop with the treats and they train the dog to listen to ME without hope of a cookie reward? Where is this training going is what I am asking?? I am having a really hard time with doing this...

 

[ruthcatrin]

There is a mid point lol, I can't stand trainers on the far ends of the spectrum personally. That "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU LET THEM PUT A PRONG COLLAR ON HIM" drives me as nuts as teh folks who insist on a prong without getting to know the dog.

In theory yes, you should be able to back off the treats and have him still obey. Personally I still use a prong on Apollo unless we're showing or only on our property, it gives me that little extra bit of security and he doesn't mind it (to him it means we're going somewhere which he enjoys). As to where in the training, well, that'll vary from dog to dog, but I'd definetly look at doing less treats if its causing him digestive issues, or else a different treat.

 

[Marrowshard]

Are they going to be moving to marker training once the treat thing is established? Better than always carrying treats is associating the positive sensation with a marker like a clicker or a word. If that's where they're headed with this then it might be worth sticking it out, but honestly that's never really worked for Oscar. It's fine for basic obedience and routine sorts of work, but he had DA issues when we adopted him as an adult and it's a heck of a lot harder to break bad habits using just a positive reinforcement method.
Our trainer has us on a prong/e-collar combo for now and like ruthcatrin says, he now knows when I get that collar out that we're going to go somewhere fun like to the park, the vet, etc. All i have to do is jingle the collar a bit and he goes into mad spins of joy.
Every dog is different, but if the previous method (with prong) was working for you it seems kind of silly to change now plus you might end up confusing Atlas a bit. Mastiffs are notoriously stubborn and independant and as such I've found you sometimes have to be pretty firm when training.

~Marrow

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yah, straight treat positive doesn't work here either. We do use the word "YES!" in as excited a voice as possible in place of a clicker, but we trained to the marker word as much as treats from the get go, more so really since Apollo isn't treat driven. Honestly I agree with Marrow, if they aren't going to start working that over to clicker or marker training fairly quick a different trainer may be in order.

 

[m0rg4n]

I get the feeling that the idea is that your dog is so used to a great reward (a treat and positive words) that when the command does happen in a normal situation, your pup will obey whether you have one or not, simply because the dog associates it with good things. I have never heard of a trainer who expects you to have a treat in your pocket 24/7; it simply lays a strong foundation for you to build upon, as I understand it.

 

[Jadotha]

Here is the thing about positive reinforcement with treats and praise: The concept is to establish the commands and positively reinforce desired behaviour with treats and praise. THEN (and this is the critical part that seems to get omitted), when it is clear the dog understands the command, you begin to use intermittent reinforcement -- one time you give a reward, the next two you don't -- just a 'good boy/girl'. Then you give a reward, then you you don't for the next, say, five times. it is most effective if you randomise the lengths of time between treats. Then you stop them altogether.

 

[DennasMom]

We start our positive-marker/clicker based training class in 2 hours... I'm looking forward to sitting in with a new trainer. The previous classes and trainers I've been with - which are more balanced, I'd say, between positive rewards and negative consequences - have worked great, too. With Denna, based on what I've read here, I've really tried hard to keep everything positive - and it's been great. The one time I put a prong collar on her (because I'd seen a youtube video showing it used correctly, and thought it would help some of her little pulling issues on walks) - as soon as she felt one itty bitty bit of pressure, she flopped to the ground, on her side and refused to budge. LOL.

As soon as I put the flat collar back on her, she was her ol' happy self again, and really, she doesn't need more than a slight pressure correction to stop pulling... so far, she's a dream to work with.
I'll have to post our experiences with the all-positive class today... I agree with you, one of the main reasons for going to group classes for me, is the socialization and 'forced' homework. It keeps us on track and exercises Denna's brain (and mine). Which is all good.

With your guy doing so well with the prong - is he getting 'collar' smart? Maybe mixing the two will help him understand than he should do as asked with or without the prong on. We had a dog with a similar attitude though... if he started to get antsy or hyper, we just had to put the prong on and he'd settle right down... no tugs or corrections required. We still worked without the collar quite a bit, too. With him, we had to use really, really good treats... and he was a farter, too. Real chicken (cooked fresh w/o any additives) did the trick on both fronts. Tasty and very motivational without extra gas.

 

[m0rg4n]

I wasn't overly excited about prong nor choke collars so I went with one of these: http://store.ezydog.com/checkmate-collars/

So far so good.

 

[ruthcatrin]

We tried a flat collar, a choke, a martingale, and a head halter with Apollo, no go. The head halter resulted in a dog who refused to move, period, and he pulled right on through all the others, at the expense of his neck cause he'd pull to the point of choking himself and still keep going. Working with the prong has helped alot, I can use the martingale at home most of the time.

 

[raechiemay]

So basically is a prong collar solely used for a dog that has issues pulling? My parent's lab/chow mix has a major problem pulling on walks & doesn't tire easily. She's prey driven & will about pull my arm out of the socket trying to chase a squirrel. I took her for my run today during lunch & she pulled the entire time. One time she almost dragged me down. I can pull on her, put her in a sit & use the leave it command which usually works but today she was out of control. I contemplated using a prong on her just for when we run. I'm new to running & the furthest I can go is 1 mile at this point. But today she was a major distraction & I couldn't stay focused. Normally she isn't like that.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I wouldn't say "solely" but its effective for that yes, though as stated above some dogs are sensitive enough that its not for them.

 

[raechiemay]

I wouldn't say "solely" but its effective for that yes, though as stated above some dogs are sensitive enough that its not for them.

Makes sense. I would think if she's got any of the hard headedness that chows seem to have a prong might come in handy just for walks/runs. I popped her collar a couple times today but I don't think it's enough. She would immediately go back to pulling. She's got a semi bushy/hairy neck & I don't know if a pop with a nylon collar is enough to phase her. I don't want to cause her neck any damage by using a prong the wrong way, so maybe I'll do some research & maybe look for a video on YouTube that I can watch before I make the decision.

 

[Marrowshard]

Like ruthcatrin says, prongs aren't solely for pullers - Oscar would walk great except when near another dog. At that point, no amount of hauling on his flat collar or snapping the lead would make him quit. We even tried a choke hoping the extra pressure would do the trick but he'd pull right through it and nearly throttle himself. He also tried a front-clip harness (EasyWalk) but he'd pull that hard enough to twist the straps around his shoulders and keep going.
The prong was the only thing that even got through his thick skull at the start and everything after that was learning how to properly apply a prong correction so you weren't accidentally making the situation worse or hurting the dog. These days, I barely have to touch it.

~Marrow

 

[raechiemay]

Marrow, that's what I'm thinking bailey needs. When we approach another dog, person, bird, squirrel, whatever she would almost rip my arm off. I'm thinking she was just having an off day & usually "leave it" works wonders but today was just one of those days where she needed a little more of a firm reminder.

Sorry to hijack your thread OP!

 

[joshuagough]

I see many of the Dane owners we hang out with use prong collars, they pull there owners around like toy puppets. I've always used choke collars just because it doesn't leave impressions on my dogs neck. That said proper correction, with even a flat collar will stop the pulling that's combined with consistency and reinforcement.

There's nothing "positive" about correction when the pup/dog doesn't listen. After the dog understands correction will be applied if he/she doesn't comply they don't tend to test it much over a week. Once that time period is over a simple no is more than enough in most situations.

What are you trying to train Atlas for? Just B.O or?

OK- so Atlas is 10 months old now- and we went to a dog training classes for 6 weeks- that claimed to be positive reinforcement based- but as soon as they saw his size mixed with his reactions to the dogs in the class that set me up with a prong collar STAT and he immediately shaped up, and for the entire 6 week course he did well with the prong collar and I have used it ever since- and rarely ever have to enforce the pull.

Do to scheduling conflicts at that school- I just started a new school- and at this school they say they are 100 percent positive training, and prong/choke collars are prohibited and frowned on. Their training is entirely treat and coerce based.

I really don’t know how I feel about this. I mean going to training for me is 90 percent for him to get interaction with new animals, people and environments regardless- but still what is the point of this type of training? I will not always have a dog biscuit in my pocket- nor do I want Atlas to only listen to me if he thinks I will give him a fattening treat. Also- after one class he had gas for hoursssssssssssssss since he had SO MANY TREATS.

I really don’t think I am liking this so far- any other views? Is there a point where we stop with the treats and they train the dog to listen to ME without hope of a cookie reward? Where is this training going is what I am asking?? I am having a really hard time with doing this...

 

[ruthcatrin]

I see many of the Dane owners we hang out with use prong collars, they pull there owners around like toy puppets. I've always used choke collars just because it doesn't leave impressions on my dogs neck.

Then they're not using the prong collar correctly, or the prong isn't the solution for those dogs. There are dogs for whom a choke is perfect, and dogs who'll bull right on through even as they choke to death. And if your prong was leaving impressions in your dog's neck then you weren't fitting it right.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Atlas Mama, it just depends where you draw the line in how much pain you want to inflict on your dog to train it. Prong collars, shock collars choke chains etc can work if your timing is bang on and your dog learns what you are trying to teach it. If for example, you use a prong collar to stop the dog from pulling, but are still giving "corrections" a week, or a month later then the dog is not learning not to pull and all you are doing is physically abusing your dog.

With reward based training, as Jadotha mentioned, treats should be phased out and only the best behaviours are reinforced. If you're dog is only doing what you ask because you have a treat, you are bribing, not reinforcing.

The method of training you use is entirely where your values lie in relation to your dog. One of the principal rules of any aversive training is that the dog cannot associate the handler with the punishment or the dog learns that you cause the pain and it will effect your relationship with him.

Aversive training techniques work, but I don't use them as I don't see them as being necessary and i don't want to teach people to hurt their dogs.

I hope this helps, do your research and do what fits with you.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Here is the thing about positive reinforcement with treats and praise: The concept is to establish the commands and positively reinforce desired behaviour with treats and praise. THEN (and this is the critical part that seems to get omitted), when it is clear the dog understands the command, you begin to use intermittent reinforcement -- one time you give a reward, the next two you don't -- just a 'good boy/girl'. Then you give a reward, then you you don't for the next, say, five times. it is most effective if you randomise the lengths of time between treats. Then you stop them altogether.

Agree. Personally I have never had to use and would honestly nor would I ever use a prong. They're not for me...to each their own but I cant abide them or e collars. But that is just my opinion and certainly not a judgement on anyone who does use them. I just think there are other ways to successfully train, they may not be the quick fix of a prong or e collar but there are alternatives out there such as food based positive reward based traing. If fattening treats or gas is your concern maybe try and alternative reward?

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I completely agree with Ruth there is a mid-point and end of the spectrum trainers either way are not one I use. I like trainers who aren't afraid to learn something with each new dog in their class and possibly apply it if they should have another one like it again. I also agree that completely positive doesn't work with our dogs either. We use only positive methods to teach a puppy (or adult dog new to the situation) the desired behaviour until we are sure that they know what they are supposed to be doing when they are asked to do it. Once we are sure if they are asked to do something and it isn't done then there is a correction for it. It can be something as simple as withhold a good boy for a lot of these dogs that are really handler sensitive to a pop on the collar depending on the dog.

Here is the way I see it, they are all training tools and what works on one might not work on others. We have dogs you can use a flat on and get the desired behaviour, some you can use a fur saver, and some you can use a prong on. Not all require a prong and not all will give the desired results on a flat. That being said we use the "training" collars strictly when training (whether we are walking in a new environment and need to ensure the reaction happens exactly when I ask it or if we are heading to dog class), while at home they are switched back to flat collars. No matter what type of mastiff you have they can get collar smart to any type of collar so it is important to understand that although these will help you get the control you need immediately, really working on the training to ensure that you have the control with or without a collar. Never let someone make you feel bad for using what works and if you find the trainers aren't the type you can work with then move on and find one that suits what you are looking for. You are the one around your dog daily, you can see which methods the dog responds to and use what works, trainers aren't infallible but some aren't willing to learn once they think they have found the best way.

We are in the same boat (yes I own dogs that aren't perfectly trained and the love to show it when we are in public at times), we have some smart ass dogs that I still have to be on top of (***cough...Hemi...*** cough... Sequoia...***) and some that would do anything just to get a good dog and all varying in ages so know that whether they are 5 mths or 5 years training is a continuing thing that you will have to stay on top of. If you have an easy keeper maybe not as much as a smart ass but only you will be able to determine that after some time.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Atlas_Mama]

Well now they have him on a harness- now Atlas at 10 months is pushing 120 pounds already and the little material harness feels a little weak to me. But i told her i would give it a try for now...

The prong collar was used- not so much for pulling- but for pulling when he was running to chase another dog! He normally isnt too much into pulling besides those bad behaviors when they flare :-/

And good points about using treats at first but then transitioning off of them. I am hoping that is the result. Atlas is also not very treat driven either so thats even a lot of work finding what fatty unhealthy treat will drive him haha

---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 AM ----------

Atlas Mama, it just depends where you draw the line in how much pain you want to inflict on your dog to train it. Prong collars, shock collars choke chains etc can work if your timing is bang on and your dog learns what you are trying to teach it. If for example, you use a prong collar to stop the dog from pulling, but are still giving "corrections" a week, or a month later then the dog is not learning not to pull and all you are doing is physically abusing your dog.

With reward based training, as Jadotha mentioned, treats should be phased out and only the best behaviours are reinforced. If you're dog is only doing what you ask because you have a treat, you are bribing, not reinforcing.

The method of training you use is entirely where your values lie in relation to your dog. One of the principal rules of any aversive training is that the dog cannot associate the handler with the punishment or the dog learns that you cause the pain and it will effect your relationship with him.

Aversive training techniques work, but I don't use them as I don't see them as being necessary and i don't want to teach people to hurt their dogs.

I hope this helps, do your research and do what fits with you.

Honestly I dont like using the prong either- but it worked so I didnt have to pull on it once he realized it was on. And the pulling is usually only when he is running towards something to chase it- like a dog-- he is a good walker. At home when I work with my dogs I never use treats. I just give them good loving, and sweet talk- when they do good behavior. And a stern- no- when they show bad behaviors- even when I am in training- I usually only give the treat reward while in the classes.