LUNGING on walks

[Robtouw]

Is he putting himself between you and the strangers and lunging or just lunging and barking at them period? There is a difference. If he feels you are threatened and it is his duty to protect everytime he sees a person he doesn't know then he is going to warn them off. He has to learn that you are ok with other in your space unless you say otherwise. Sounds easy, but its actually hard to teach. He may just be protecting what he feels is his, that being you. I am totally against pronged collars and other uncomfortable devices and have learned that positive reinforcement and reward works best, takes longer but stays with the dog and leaves him with a better sense of trust.
My last OEM mistrusted anyone wearing dark sunglasses, he could not see their eyes and that drove him nuts. It took us what felt like forever in practice with treats, praise, and repetition to get the prob solved. We would have people come over wearing them on purpose, he would sound off (on leash of course), we would put him in a certain position such as sit or long down and reward with turkey, larger pieces for larger lengths of time for stay. After he calmed down, we would have the person walk up to him with us leading them by the arm, glasses on and allow him to examine them. We led them to make him understand that we accepted them and were not in any type of harm, again its perception. Once he found them to be friendly with the glasses on he calmed and slowly began to be desensitized to the glasses. He always questioned the glasses but over time did not react violently to them. This took a great deal of repetition and cooperation from scared friends, a 180lb barking, lunging dog is not what you want to experience, but in the long run it paid off greatly!

 

[babyjoemurphy]

ROBTOUW- He just lunges. There is no in between us, in front of us, behind us, left or right side. He just lunges to where ever the person is. There is no certain person, its just EVERYONE! Since we got him 6 weeks ago we have come to realize a few things he didn't show at first. The first few days I could have taken him for a walk with no lead, he didn't resource guard, and he didn't have the "ZOOMIES". Over the week or two after he started to show these things. I understand that he was probably mixed up and confused as to here his people went and why am I still in this strange place. I also understand having to establish hierarchy in the house. As I found out last night though the things he does with me isn't because he TRUST me, it is because I am his lesser and I empower him. Some may disagree with that. I seem to be his "GO TO GIRL" when he is asked to leave the table when we eat, or if we bring the barking dog that wants to eat him over (on lead of course) he will go behind me or my chair and sit facing my back. He doesn't lay down and get comfy. He will sit, not relaxed, almost at attention. I thought it was trust, but how can he trust me if I have never taught him he can trust me. As he shows on our walks that he doesn't trust us yet....key word is YET. When he lunges he does from 0-60 and back again in a VERY short time. A few seconds from beginning to end. So that is on our side. We can get his attention back pronto. Of course he shouldn't need to do it at all. But we will get there.
I am a true believer in POSITIVE training, I do not believe in pronged collars even though he cam with one. We tried a prong on our other dog as a pup for pulling but it was useless. It actually didn't even faze him. You can tell him Murphy that he was treat trained and we really don't want that. He responds very well to pettings more like belly rubs so we do that now. I always have treats in my pocket for back up but don't want to rely on them in case one day we forgot them.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Well, you're learning his signals which is good. And learning about yourself, which is also good lol.

Yah, him learning to really TRUST you will help ALOT. THATS going to take time though. Possibly alot of time.

We do use a prong collar with Apollo when we're in public (or for the last couple months at home since I have a FRICKING STUPID CAT from across the street who likes my yard dammit....), because he won't pull through a prong collar the way he will with a flat collar or choke chain. He'll pull on a flat collar to the point of choking himself, and is oblivious to the "choke" of a choke chain, and although he'll occasionally lean into the prong he's NEVER done so with nearly the same degree as with the flat collars. This means that I don't have to worry about him damaging his windpipe on the collar, plus he responds better to a twitch of the prong than a tug on the flat collar when he IS locked in on that damn cat.

Frankly if you're able to get Murphy's attention with the flat collar or flat combined with the choke (Apollo didn't even BLINK at the choke) then I don't see the need to use the prong collar.

 

[Jadotha]

babyjoemurphy,

That sounds like a couple of major breakthroughs with Murphy-- the fact that he didn't lunge at all with the trainer, hence it should possible with further training of both you and Murphy to get the same result; AND you identified an important signal! Yaaaaay, keep up the good work.

I agree with Ruthcatrin that if you can get Murphy's attention with the flat collar and/or the choke -- go with that! but you're making great progress, so I would do as your trainer advises.

I use a prong with my Wolfie, but that is because he wore one -- apparently 24/7 for five years before we adopted him --and although he was well trained in many respects, he doesn't even notice a flat collar.Fortunately, just wearing a prong (only for walks !) is sufficient. He heels on a loose lead and I never have to actually engage it.

 

[babyjoemurphy]

I completely understand the use of prong collars, but don't think Murphy needs one as of yet anyways lol. Trust me I would use one only after all else has failed. If it meant walking him safely.
You get a whole new respect for training things when you have the problem. Things 3 weeks ago I said "Never" to, I would consider now. On our walk tonight will be a test for sure

Thank you everyone for the words of encouragement, it is greatly appreciated!

 

[mountainfila]

I completely understand the use of prong collars, but don't think Murphy needs one as of yet anyways lol. Trust me I would use one only after all else has failed. If it meant walking him safely.
You get a whole new respect for training things when you have the problem. Things 3 weeks ago I said "Never" to, I would consider now. On our walk tonight will be a test for sure

Thank you everyone for the words of encouragement, it is greatly appreciated!

Glad you are making head way with your boy, was wondering if you every considered using a halti along with his choker. I myself have never used one but it may give you a little bit more control of his head and were he looks. Now that you know his "tell", once you see the sign the halti gives you the ability to direct his head back to you. Next time you see your trainer i would ask if it would help you have more control. I have seen them used on some hard headed dogs and they have worked with them, like i said i have not used one but i would try considering you said you had a hard time handling him cause he is so strong.

 

[Jadotha]

@ Mountainfila....with every respect, I like the idea behind halti's, but I have friends whose dogs took off after 'triggers' and damaged their esophagi and vertebrae. I think babyjoe shoud go with what her trainer suggests.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I tried one, breifly, on Apollo. Great concept, but if they're not quick enough to redirect his head, when he lunges its going to whip his head around with all his weight behind him and thats way to likely to do damage. Halti's work well with dogs who just PULL, but I really don't like them for dogs who lunge.

 

[mountainfila]

@ Mountainfila....with every respect, I like the idea behind halti's, but I have friends whose dogs took off after 'triggers' and damaged their esophagi and vertebrae. I think babyjoe shoud go with what her trainer suggests.

That is why i said to use it in combination with her other collar, not by itself. And i also said to ask her trainer "if" it would help her control him better. How would he be able to take off if she has his regular gear on him as well. To me he doesnt sound like he is going to take off if he is lunging to bite someone, maybe if he was fearfull and got scared he may bolt but he sounds pretty stable from what she has told us about him.

---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

I tried one, breifly, on Apollo. Great concept, but if they're not quick enough to redirect his head, when he lunges its going to whip his head around with all his weight behind him and thats way to likely to do damage. Halti's work well with dogs who just PULL, but I really don't like them for dogs who lunge.

Thats why we have to watch for tells and redirect before he lunges, isnt that the whole point in training is to teach the dog that we dont want that behaviour. Ya i agree with you if your just going to slap a halti on and go for a walk like normal , no dont use one cause its pointless, your just going to hurt the dog.

Prime example of wrong use, i was watching a guy walk a little bassenji pup maybe 5-6 months, that little guy was just a boogeing out in front and everytime he was going faster then the owner he would jerk the halti like a horse, the owner at that time should have corrected him but the owner was to busy looking at the birds and sky and not paying attention to his pup. This went on till they reached the other side of the parking lot until the owner got tired of the pup jerkin the leash and he bent down and grabbed the pup on either side of the pups shoulders and gave him a quick shake up and down and told him to stop doing that. Did the pup stop doing it....no, i would say that it was an improper use of it. I myself have never had to use anything besides a choke collar and lead so all i can do is make suggestions she can ask her trainer about , the more info a person has under there belt can lead to better outcome most of the time. And i must say all you guys are awesome and very knowlegable so she is in the right place

 

[mountainfila]

I tried one, breifly, on Apollo. Great concept, but if they're not quick enough to redirect his head, when he lunges its going to whip his head around with all his weight behind him and thats way to likely to do damage. Halti's work well with dogs who just PULL, but I really don't like them for dogs who lunge.

Thats why we have to watch for tells and redirect before he lunges, isnt that the whole point in training is to teach the dog that we dont want that behaviour. Ya i agree with you if your just going to slap a halti on and go for a walk like normal , no dont use one cause its pointless, your just going to hurt the dog.

Prime example of wrong use, i was watching a guy walk a little bassenji pup maybe 5-6 months, that little guy was just a boogeing out in front and everytime he was going faster then the owner he would jerk the halti like a horse, the owner at that time should have corrected him but the owner was to busy looking at the birds and sky and not paying attention to his pup. This went on till they reached the other side of the parking lot until the owner got tired of the pup jerkin the leash and he bent down and grabbed the pup on either side of the pups shoulders and gave him a quick shake up and down and told him to stop doing that. Did the pup stop doing it....no, i would say that it was an improper use of it. I myself have never had to use anything besides a choke collar and lead so all i can do is make suggestions she can ask her trainer about , the more info a person has under there belt can lead to better outcome most of the time. And i must say all you guys are awesome and very knowlegable so she is in the right place

 

[Robtouw]

Gotcha! It sounds like the two of you still need to get to know each other. Working on trust and who's in control is a tough one but one you can absolutely overcome. I would pop him on a nice short lead and practice basic leash walking in your own space, whether it is in or outside. Walk, keep him to your side, yank him back when he pulls away, make him sit each time you stop, praise, practice until he gets that you are in control. And it sounds easy, with an over zealous big dog it is frustrating! Sounds like you've got to restablish a control "alpha" leadership with him before you can even begin to work on the lunging. Mastiffs are hardheaded.

One of my prev OEM's also saw me as the provider but not the alpha in the beginning of our relationship and I had to work my tail off to make him understand that I was in charge, but eventually he got it. He was horrible on a lead, bullheaded and did not listen. We did an excessive amount of basic control leash training indoors in a quiet room, round and round the room for days. I stopped just handing over his food, and put him on a leash, put the food down and led him to the bowl each feeding, making him sit until I released him. I had to make him understand that I controlled when he got his reward/food/play/attention, etc. I also made up "work" type things for him to do. Sounds weird, but it helped. Each morning when I went out to put my horses out to pasture I would bring him on a lead, fill a bucket with horse feed and put the handle in his mouth, lead him across the field to dump feed and lead him back. He kept sitting the bucket down, pulling on the lead, etc. and it was a big frustrating fight a first, then a game, then a mission. Every time I taught him another "chore" he began to work better and better and for whatever reason began taking my direction alot easier without us fighting about control, he relinquished and I had it Finally!

 

[Jadotha]

That is why i said to use it in combination with her other collar, not by itself. And i also said to ask her trainer "if" it would help her control him better. How would he be able to take off if she has his regular gear on him as well. To me he doesnt sound like he is going to take off if he is lunging to bite someone, maybe if he was fearfull and got scared he may bolt but he sounds pretty stable from what she has told us about him.

Yes, ok. I think I've probably seen too many people using haltis in incorrect ways such as you described

 

[bahamamarg]

Babyjoe - so glad you seem to be having a breakthrough - haven't been on the site for a while so good to catch up. Murphy, Oscar and Dexter all seem very alike - as they say in the Bahamas, they are 'brothers from another mother ' !! We are no where really. After 4 weeks and $54 later, still no muzzle delivered and no luck finding a us trainer to come over. I'm hoping the trainer from Nassau starts working again towards the end of the month (start sf school) as I really got a good vibe from him. No episodes in the last 4 weeks as we've avoided all people and not encountered anyone by mistake. Last night he was vey upset at a giant piece of seaweed on the beach! Tonight we were sitting on the beach and 2 people came on. He immediately jumped up alert. We put his leash on and took him inside. They were about 1/4 mile away at the point he became upset! McConnell ( and also described on another of my threads by one of you) says you should find the "threshold" for the trigger. Does 1/4 mile away seem accessive to anyone? I am sure our reaction is also making him worse too. Good luck and so happy you found a trainer you all trust!

 

[babyjoemurphy]

Murphy is amazing on his lead. Loose walk almost always. Once in awhile he goes into a little prance but doesn't go more then a step or two ahead, but instantly corrects himself. We work with him on walks with recall, sit, stay etc. He truly is amazing on walks until........THE LUNGE!

Last night my 10yr old double walked with my husband but had full control of Murphy. I cannot say how impressed I was with my son and Murphy. They worked so good together. Murphy was amazing and my son made corrections without having to be told when and did them bang on with timing. Then it changed. Murphy decided to start lunging at the end of the walk. We were on the main road and it was late so not many cars but Murphy decided to lunge at the cars coming at us. My son was caught off guard at first. My husband had full control. Then he lunged at another car and again, again and again in a matter of seconds. All of a sudden my son made a correction before we had the chance and Murphy sat down and let the car go by. Well, I told my.son to prqaise praise praise as I praised my son. Then he did it again a few more times. It got to were Murphy laid down on the sidewalk all relaxed.
We had a yard sale today and decided to bring Murphy outside but away from the people and he was fantastic. Everyone of course wanted to meet him so we took his cue and he ended up meeting about 6-10 people. Now here is the weird thing. We had him up by the house which is about 50 ft from the sidewalk/road, Murphy ended up mingling with everyone and he was so happy. As soon as my husband had him close to the sidewalk/road he lunged. My husband was always on the ready as if walking him. We have been bringing him to our coffee shop ever night to lay in the grass and take in all the people around and he has been great. We want to make sure he stays socialized as he was in his other home, but why in the world was he so.awesome.at the house and switched into a lunge at the sidewalk? Needless to.say he ended up in the house for the rest of the hard sale.

---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

As for the halti collar, Murphy seems to really respond to the lead used as the choker.

 

[babyjoemurphy]

As for the halti collar, Murphy seems to really respond to the lead used as the choker.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Does he maybe have car issues? Or else the sidewalk means something specific to him...

 

[babyjoemurphy]

I think he might have car issues, not as in being in one but when we first adopted him he lunged at ALL vehicles but then after us walking him.every night when it Wasent busy he stopped caring. But when my son had control of him last night he went into "get the cars" mode. He walks on the sidewalk with no problem if there isn't people on it lol. We have yet to complete a walk without a lunge yet. And it is usually more likely for him to lunge when we are nearing home now.
I just don't understand why he is fine with people say in a park or like today at the yard sale but not on walks. Makes no sense but through this we can let our trainer know. I do know that where he use to live he didn't have sidewalks. Could that really be something to consider?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Could be, it can be hard to understand the associations sometimes. Definetly tell the trainer about him being more likely to lunge at cars, and how the different locations make a difference.

I wonder if he sees sidewalks as boundaries to be defended? Or even "MY sidewalk!"?

 

[babyjoemurphy]

Its funny how you figure out things as you go. And now that I am talking with you guys it kinda is painting a bigger picture. Bare with me on this and let me know what you all think. The little things are adding.up now. As for the cars the trainer already knows about them, but last night was really bad.
Ok I am so excited here!

When we sit at our coffee shop, we sit on a patch of grass between the sidewalk/road and the drive-thru/shop. We had people come to him from the shop to meet him and he just laid in the grass wagging his tail. My husband brought him over to the garbage and he meet two men there. No problem. They came back laid in the grass and Murphy just watched everyone with his head laying on the grass. There were even 2 cars parked with they men standing outside of them 10ft away from us. No problem. A women was walking on the sidewalk/road part he Lunged. Again same sort of things happened the next day but with no people interaction, he lunged at someone on the sidewalk/road side. Wow it seems to be adding up.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Sidewalks mean something to him, though it could be a negetive experience you're not aware of too. Could he have been previously taught that the road edge is 'his line' to defend and he's transfered that to the sidewalks?