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LUNGING on walks

babyjoemurphy

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
​We have been working really hard with Murphy since we adopted him in June and he is doing FANTASTIC. He has adjusted well and is even starting to protect the house. We take him for 2 walks a day and do obedience training at home and at the park (not dog park). We had a trainer come in to address the lunging issue and we were put on the NILF training. Murphy came to us obedience trained and he was spoiled at his previous home as well as here.

Now we can't seem to stop the lunging at people during our walk. He doesn't even seem to have the signs of Ears, Tail, head etc. He just does it 0-60 in 1 second. Sometimes he doesn't bother but most times he just lunges and barks. We have our trainer coming back in on Monday but want to see what people suggest here.

It's an aggressive lunge

We show no tension and are completely relaxed on the walks but it still happens
 
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DennasMom

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
One thing to try which worked for me with my previous dogs... was as soon as I saw a person coming our direction, I picked a spot in a yard or driveway to take the dog a few feet out of the sidewalk and put them in a sit or down and have them "stay" as the person walked by.

It only took a week or two for my two dogs to get the hang of it - people were easier for them to watch walk by than other dogs... but it definitely helped for both situations.

I'm using the same method with Denna. She thinks EVERY person is her bestest friend wants to say HI to her and get puppy kisses... That may have been the case a month ago when she was obviously a puppy... but at 55lbs it's no longer a given - and I'm sure when she's 150+ it will be a different story all together.
 
babyjoemurphy

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
problem is he is 2 1/2 and 150+ already. We have done the sit stay in driveways but its no good. As soon as the next sneaky person comes by its all over again. I say sneaky for the ones coming from behind. And the biggest problem is its not everyone. So in one sense we want to give him the chance to assess the situation which he has done many times. We thought maybe he was feeling protective since we are still new to each other, but even 110 yr old people isn't protecting lol, its harrassing LMAO.

I really don't know what to do. He just lunges even from a sit stay, and he is VERY good at sit stay in any other situation. We can walk away from him for as long as we want and he just waits. Not saying we do it for LOOOONG periods of time. We are not evil owners. So don't anyone run with that please.
 
Marrowshard

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
Sounds really familiar (*ahem* OSCAR *ahem*). Forgive me if you mentioned this in another thread, but what's your typical walking equipment look like? Does Murphy walk at Heel or in front?

~Marrow
 
babyjoemurphy

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
we started with a choker, once we realized he is fantastic at walking and the choker didn't faze him in a "lunge" situation we went to a regular collar that he came with. Murphy walks right beside us in a very calm walk. If by chance he does pull ahead it is corrected and he goes back to place at side. He gets fixed on a tree once in awhile but with a little pull from the lead he clues back to us.

We can pass people standing around, he will heighten his attention but after assessing them he puts his attention backat hand. When he is assessing he continues to walk with us but turns his head to see the people and then carries on. That is when he isn't trying to eat people.
 
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Marrowshard

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
I'd consider a prong if you haven't already, as well as a trainer to show you how to use it. If he's pulling through a choker and lunging at people on a flat collar, you need something else. When I took Oscar in for his training (his issue is other dogs, not people, but same basic behavior: sudden lunge, little to no warning, calm walker otherwise), it took a properly sized and fitted prong collar to make him stop trying to eat people's pets. Everything since then has been fine-tuning his reactions so he doesn't even look at another dog much less approach them with ill intent.

One thing I was taught to do is correct at the first sign of concentrated attention, not after he starts pulling/barking/whatever. By that time, any stimulus you're giving on the collar isn't working and might actually be making it worse. You say he's assessing people as you pass them, turning his head to watch them and then coming back around. Here's the thing: he's choosing to watch someone else and then when he's decided he's bored he goes back to being your escort. He's not trusting you to make the decisions, he's making them for you and reacting as he sees fit. He needs to understand that you're in control. You are his master and his alpha and if you do not give him permission to neutralize a threat then his place is at your side and eyes forward. Oscar's classic behavior was to be an angel right up until he chose not to be. Dog size, gender, attitude etc. didn't matter; it was a game for him. A few months down the road, he's much better but it's taken a lot of work and consistency and quite honestly, I couldn't have done it on my own even with a whole book of instructions and all the best intentions.

Like Murphy, Oscar was a rescue and as such had a lot of bad habits ingrained. He's not a "bad dog" and neither is Murphy but the longer he gets away with being a jerk the harder it's going to be to break that habit. I strongly suggest getting a trainer who specializes in dominant dogs. There's a huge gap between trainers who work with Labs all day and trainers who do protection sports and large/giant breed obedience.

~Marrow
 
babyjoemurphy

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
My husband though it good to let Murphy assess as long as he stays by his side and walks. I understand exactly what you are saying with attention always on the walker. I will pass that on. We have a prong collar already and maybe will give that a they. Our trainer is coming in Monday night. I talked to him this morning. He will be taking Murphy into the situation of people to see what exactly he is doing. Being around 7pm there is still people out walking around. He came in already once to try and help but the "mine" worked for only a week her two. Now he is back at it.

Once he gets it can you take the prong collar off and use a regular one? His previous owners only walked him on a very quiet culture de sac. So he was never exposed to the speed of the city life.
 
M

musicdeb

Well-Known Member
babyjoemurphy, hope the trainer helps you correct this issue. Titan used to do this and he will try to do it occasionally. Titan will go into his stare look. His tail goes up and he fixates on the person/dog. I break his concentration from the person/dog. I tell him it's ok. I allow him to bark but not lunge, well at least do my best to stop the lunge. He's improved so much with the lunging because I walk him at the park with lots of people walking and people walking with their dogs. He looks at them and keeps walking. I believe it's my being relaxed and walking with confidence lets Titan know that I've got it and if I need him I will let him know.

Keep us updated on Murphy's progress.
 
G

Glasgowdogtrainer

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't use any type of aversive training method with your dog, such as a prong collar or e-collar. You are likely to make his behaviour worse because he'll associate the stranger or whatever it is he is reacting to with pain, and then react more aggressively to make the person go away. Instead, I would use a tonne of counter conditioning/desensitisation with him.

He will have a distance at which he will see the person and not react. This is called his threshold distance. Any closer than that, and he'll feel the need to react. Start at threshold, let him see the stranger and feed him. You can use his normal food for this of give a combination of treats such as hot dogs, cheese etc with his normal food. Over time, he will associate the stranger coming into view with him being fed by you. You can gradually move closer and eventually he should be able to get to the stage where strangers are able to feed him. You are aiming to change what a stranger means to him. Just now he doesn't like them and reacts the way he does. Add a prong collar into this and he really won't like the stranger. If you can make a solid association between strangers and food, strangers will then be something he looks forward to seeing, instead of something he reacts to.

Also, if your trainer is recommending e-collars, prong collars, rattle cans etc, I would calla round and go with someone else.

John
www.glasgowdogtrainer.co.uk
 
babyjoemurphy

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
Glasgow- We have had occasions with people on our street that he will heighten his awareness and my husband put him into a sit-stay. Our street friends will give him treats and he is all good with that. Murphy is food driven. But not knowing when he is going to lunge is the hard part. Like I said 0-60 in a split second. No warning, yet other times he just ignores and we praise him when he does that. I didn't think of the prong collar and his associating it with pain. Thats the last thing we want to do. Our trainer uses the lead as a chocker/lead. I have seen it used SOOOO many times. He is on the same line as Caear Millan.
I would love to walk him as my husband travels for work and if he happens to be away I will have to get someone else to walk him till this Lunging is done, or have my daughter double lead walk him with me.
 
G

Glasgowdogtrainer

Well-Known Member
Ok, because he is unpredictable it is even more important to do this. If he is food driven, machine gun him his food as the people are approaching. By that I mean give him his treats/kibble rapidly, one after the other, a very very high rate of reinforcement.

Use the bar is open/bar is closed routine. People approaching means the bar is open, as soon as they walk by the bar is closed.

Do it where you can, when you can, as often as you can. Set up for success, meaning be far enough away that he won't react.

I would also consider using another trainer. Cesar Milan has put dog training back 50 years.
 
babyjoemurphy

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
What I mean by like caeaser Milan was in positive thinking. Positive reinforcment. Our trainer put us on the NIL training when we brought him home so we could establish "Pack leader" in the house. But the NILF is not working on our walks. Tonight out come the hotdogs. The weird thing is he has an amazing trained mind. But Im thinking since we have only had him a month and a half he isn't in full trust with us yet.
 
Jadotha

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
Babyjoe, I completely support what GlasgowDT is suggesting. It is what we are doing with our IWH with things that have remained stubborn 'triggers' after our 'attention to me' training (and treating), which got him to focus on us instead of distractions. He is still worried about and will react aggressively toward people dressed all in black -- especially if they are moving quickly (jogging/speed walking) -- black SUV's, strollers, and golden retrievers. Whilst we don't see these on a daily basis, I am always alert for them and prepared to act before he reaches his threshold.
 
G

Glasgowdogtrainer

Well-Known Member
Pack leadership, dominance theory, pack theory has been totally debunked by the scientific community. Dogs aren't wolves, they don't think we're dogs or wolves, wild wolves behave differently than captive wolves and pack theory was extrapolated from studies with captive wolves. Think of your leadership as leading the dance or instruction you would give a two year old child when teaching her something new.

What I'm suggesting isn't NILIF, I don't really think that "nothing" should be free in a dog's life. You are allowed to throw a ball or scratch her ear because she's your dog and you want to. Google desensitisation and counter conditioning, ask about the terms when interviewing trainers.

Positive reinforcement means adding (+/positive) something to reinforce (increase) a behaviour. Giving a treat you your dog (adding/+) when he looks at a stranger and doesn't react will increase/reinforce the likelihood of it happening in the future. Cesar hasn't historically used this a great deal.

---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------
Jadotha said:
He is still worried about and will react aggressively toward people dressed all in black -- especially if they are moving quickly (jogging/speed walking) -- black SUV's, strollers, and golden retrievers. Whilst we don't see these on a daily basis, I am always alert for them and prepared to act before he reaches his threshold.
Click to expand...

Black clothed people or black items mean super high value treats, e'g. garlic chicken/ salami

That should help a bit
 
G

Glasgowdogtrainer

Well-Known Member
Jadotha said:
He is still worried about and will react aggressively toward people dressed all in black -- especially if they are moving quickly (jogging/speed walking) -- black SUV's, strollers, and golden retrievers. Whilst we don't see these on a daily basis, I am always alert for them and prepared to act before he reaches his threshold.
Click to expand...

Black clothed people or black items mean super high value treats, e'g. garlic chicken/ salami

That should help a bit
 
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