Hi! New here. CC registration question

[Misseau]

Hi. I am new here and I have a question about registering my Cane Corso.

First, the breeder did not register the parents which leads me to believe they may have been back yard breeders. Never the less I meet the parents several times and was satisfied by their character, temperament and their authenticity as pure blood Cane Corso's. No, I don't have proof of it, which is where my question comes in.

There is genetic testing available for dogs now. If I am able to obtain a certificate showing that my Cane Corso is in fact pure blood, can I register him? Has anyone else ever done this? Would it negatively bother breeders to have people like me want to register their CC in circumstances like this?


I’m not trying to cause any ripples, however it would be nice to have the recognition of being pure blood despite ones pedigree, or lack thereof.

Thoughts?

 

[ruthcatrin]

If the parents are completely unregistered no, you cannot register your dog as a purebred Corso, at least not with any reputable registry. (why would you get a dog from unregistered parents if you want to register your dog??)

 

[Smokeycat]

Unless there is proof via the parents registration the only way to register a dog (at least in Canada) is to wait until after they have been sterilized and then register them as a companion animal (aka Mixed breed).

 

[QY10]

I'm also curious as to why you wouldn't have gone to a more reputable breeder, with registered parents if you wanted a registered pup?

 

[irina]

I am guessing because puppies from registered breeders and parents with pedigrees cost a lot of money. This way you can have your cake and eat it too: not pay too much and tell people that you have a "registered" corso.

 

[Misseau]

Thanks for your input. I checked out a number of testing options and there are a couple that can attest to pure breed linage, in addition to disease factors, although they do say that AKC will not accept this to be sufficient for registration given the needed verification of individual registered animals, vice actual pure breed quality and authenticity via genetics. UKC is an option...

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

As Irina said most of the answers I don't need to elaborate on why but I do have a question, how do you know the parents are pure Cane Corso. There is not a lot of consistency in the breed and I could show you pictures (one that was on a FB page not long ago) asking which is the corso and do you want to take a guess at the number of people that did not know the answer to the question. How many corso have you met, in person? When you say "true corso temperament"? Can you describe what that means?

That being said I wonder like the others if registration of your dog was so important why did you buy from this particular breeder? DNA tests are not 100% accurate, just as Ruth (TM owner on here) and few I think actually test for the actual breed with any truly accurate results due to the dogs used in the recovery.

UKC is an option to what? Register a dog that you do not know for 100% certain is purebred?

 

[Misseau]

I'm also curious as to why you wouldn't have gone to a more reputable breeder, with registered parents if you wanted a registered pup?

We were not primarily interested in the dogs pedigree, but rather most importantly in the dogs ability. We had been to a number of breeders and it was one problem after another and just too complicated to get a straight answer or to get the breeder(s) to actually demonstrate their dogs ability's - other than standing as if being judged. One breeder laughed at us when we told him what we were wanting a Cane Corso for, another said she would consider extending us 'the privilege' of accepting our application, another was hooked on the pedigrees being the only thing that mattered, another wanted us to sign a no breeding contract in exchange for the pedigree/registration, two flat out rejected our application, etc. Honestly, no offense to the breeders here, but it was ridiculous. We wanted a Cane Corso to do the job it had been doing in Italy when we first were introduced to the breed before it was even AKC accepted. One breeder told us that if we wanted a dog for live stock to get a herding dog. He was by far the most offensive breeder, and really out of touch to what the Cane's ability's include. I am sure there are some great breeders out there, but it seemed that unless we could afford to import from Italy - which we couldn't- [FONT=&amp]all the breeder attitudes toward the breeding and sale of the pups was geared toward the association of desire with affordability, rather than between compatibility and need, and simply (over)priced their stock accordingly. [/FONT]

Anyway, we found someone who was able to demonstrate and actually have his dogs work the yard and his fence line for us and we were able to interact with the dogs and watched the dogs interact with their kids and even with another set of potential buyers too. We visited several times and we have no ill feelings toward these people at all. We have had our dog checked for health issues and all has checked out ok. Sure, they did not have papers, and maybe that is the meaning of back yard breeders, but maybe it was tough for them too to obtain a pure breed dog to work their yard without suffering any grief and simply choose not to obtain registration by not neutering or spaying, etc. We were interested in a dog that was both true to its heritage and ability's and one that met the book standard. If there were no papers, well, papers don't demonstrate ability either. None of the breeders were willing to sell us a dog for what we could afford, nor could any of the breeders demonstrate that their breeding dogs were able to do anything close to what the Cane Corso's job has historically been, if some even allowed us to interact without constant commands on their dogs at all.

We are more than happy with our Cane Corso. He is exceptional, majestic, solid, smart, thinks on his feet, playful, attentive, a great babysitter, and seems to have his own high set of standards for doing his job. We would like to try and obtain papers by way of merit thru proving the dogs ability's and by proving his genetic lineage/soundness, in addition to the sound health of the dog. We are looking at other genetic heritage markers to show no recessive genes etc, but even within pedigreed dogs there are bad recessive genes that can render an animal non breedable, etc. Just looking into all that part now.

So, that is why we did not go with a more 'reputable' breeder.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

What ability were you looking to have them demonstrate? That they could work a fence or on a farm? Do you know how many breeders do not own farms or work their dogs in such a way, how would they be able to demonstrate it? Importing from Italy would not necessarily guarantee you a dog that could work livestock either, that is the problem, this breed is supposed to be versatile breed but not all dogs can do the job and when you are talking about a breed that is still all over the place in a lot of aspects, a lot is luck of the draw with getting a puppy. There are several corso that have their HIT and I believe in the US you can even compete to get herding titles now on corso.

No breeding contracts are standard for responsible breeders, not just in this breed but in most breeds. If a dog is usually worth keeping in the gene pool the breeder keeps it or co-owns it. Too much effort goes into working on a program to get the kinks out as far as health, temperament and conformation. Most have no issue with this if they aren't looking to breed dogs that are deemed "pet quality" by the breeder for a reason.

What were the health checks done on the parents of the dog you got? You said you have the health checked on your pup, what exactly did you have checked? What makes you believe that the parents conformed to standard, you said that they dogs were able to perform the job they were asked of them but do they meet the other criteria set forth in the rest standard? You state in one breath that papers were not the most important as they do not demostrate ability so I don't understand why you are concerned about them now. If your dog works then it is doing the job that you required of it without needing the papers. Proving him through his own merit is fine and not something you need papers for, if you want titles to recognize his merit in this then you can spay/neuter and register as a mix-bred to compete, the only thing you would not be able to compete in is conformation but as that tends to be geared towards dogs proving they meet the standard before being bred it wouldn't be an issue.

The corso community is small and there are very few responsible breeders up here in Canada but those that are work hard on their programs and that is why they carry a heavier price tag on their pups. Those breeders put a lot of time, effort, research and money of their own into their dogs, sometimes scraping a whole line when it doesn't work out. I have never met a breeder that has not allowed me to interact with their dogs, had no problems talking to me about the issues/faults with their own dogs and what they are working to improve on.

In the end you got what you were looking for, a dog that can work livestock like you wanted without papers and he sounds like all that you are looking for. The breeders should be able to help you out with the pedigree and that will allow you to at least look into the dogs that are in the background of your dog.

We were not primarily interested in the dogs pedigree, but rather most importantly in the dogs ability. We had been to a number of breeders and it was one problem after another and just too complicated to get a straight answer or to get the breeder(s) to actually demonstrate their dogs ability's - other than standing as if being judged. One breeder laughed at us when we told him what we were wanting a Cane Corso for, another said she would consider extending us 'the privilege' of accepting our application, another was hooked on the pedigrees being the only thing that mattered, another wanted us to sign a no breeding contract in exchange for the pedigree/registration, two flat out rejected our application, etc. Honestly, no offense to the breeders here, but it was ridiculous. We wanted a Cane Corso to do the job it had been doing in Italy when we first were introduced to the breed before it was even AKC accepted. One breeder told us that if we wanted a dog for live stock to get a herding dog. He was by far the most offensive breeder, and really out of touch to what the Cane's ability's include. I am sure there are some great breeders out there, but it seemed that unless we could afford to import from Italy - which we couldn't- [FONT=&amp]all the breeder attitudes toward the breeding and sale of the pups was geared toward the association of desire with affordability, rather than between compatibility and need, and simply (over)priced their stock accordingly. [/FONT]

Anyway, we found someone who was able to demonstrate and actually have his dogs work the yard and his fence line for us and we were able to interact with the dogs and watched the dogs interact with their kids and even with another set of potential buyers too. We visited several times and we have no ill feelings toward these people at all. We have had our dog checked for health issues and all has checked out ok. Sure, they did not have papers, and maybe that is the meaning of back yard breeders, but maybe it was tough for them too to obtain a pure breed dog to work their yard without suffering any grief and simply choose not to obtain registration by not neutering or spaying, etc. We were interested in a dog that was both true to its heritage and ability's and one that met the book standard. If there were no papers, well, papers don't demonstrate ability either. None of the breeders were willing to sell us a dog for what we could afford, nor could any of the breeders demonstrate that their breeding dogs were able to do anything close to what the Cane Corso's job has historically been, if some even allowed us to interact without constant commands on their dogs at all.

We are more than happy with our Cane Corso. He is exceptional, majestic, solid, smart, thinks on his feet, playful, attentive, a great babysitter, and seems to have his own high set of standards for doing his job. We would like to try and obtain papers by way of merit thru proving the dogs ability's and by proving his genetic lineage/soundness, in addition to the sound health of the dog. We are looking at other genetic heritage markers to show no recessive genes etc, but even within pedigreed dogs there are bad recessive genes that can render an animal non breedable, etc. Just looking into all that part now.

So, that is why we did not go with a more 'reputable' breeder.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Thanks for your input. I checked out a number of testing options and there are a couple that can attest to pure breed linage, in addition to disease factors, although they do say that AKC will not accept this to be sufficient for registration given the needed verification of individual registered animals, vice actual pure breed quality and authenticity via genetics. UKC is an option...

UKC isn't an option if the pup doesn't have registered parents. In order to register a CC with the UKC the dog must have a registration from a registry the UKC approved list, none of which accept DNA evidence as proof of "purebredness". The AKC doesn't accept DNA proof of "purebredness". The Canadian Kennel Club doesn't accept DNA proof, the FCI doesn't accept DNA proof, the UK's KC doesn't accept DNA proof.....

You could register him with the Continental Kennel Club, not only do they not care about the parents, they also don't care about DNA. All you have to send them is a picture of the dog. But if what you're looking for is respect for your dog from the CC community don't register your dog with the Continental KC cause they'll laugh in your face and write you off as another idiot to stupid to do your research.

While the DNA breed testing is pretty accurate for the really popular breeds that have been in North America for a while (ie: a Golden Retriever who's pedigree doesn't include any recent imports), the less common the breed is the less accurate the testing is, and that doesn't even take into account lines with recent imports, cause those will almost always screw up the testing.

 

[ruthcatrin]

And I gotta agree with BlackShadow, what does "you had your dog's health checked" mean? Did you actually get OFA/Pennhip health certs for him? I doubt it since the OFA/Pennhip would require you to list him as a mixed breed (and they won't change it). Did his parents have health certs? From your description I highly doubt it. I have yet to see a cut-rate breeder who's bothered to do the hip and elbow xrays and certs required. Thats part of what makes a pup from a GOOD breeder cost so much.

 

[Smokeycat]

We were not primarily interested in the dogs pedigree, but rather most importantly in the dogs ability. We had been to a number of breeders and it was one problem after another and just too complicated to get a straight answer or to get the breeder(s) to actually demonstrate their dogs ability's - other than standing as if being judged. One breeder laughed at us when we told him what we were wanting a Cane Corso for, another said she would consider extending us 'the privilege' of accepting our application, another was hooked on the pedigrees being the only thing that mattered, another wanted us to sign a no breeding contract in exchange for the pedigree/registration, two flat out rejected our application, etc. Honestly, no offense to the breeders here, but it was ridiculous. We wanted a Cane Corso to do the job it had been doing in Italy when we first were introduced to the breed before it was even AKC accepted. One breeder told us that if we wanted a dog for live stock to get a herding dog. He was by far the most offensive breeder, and really out of touch to what the Cane's ability's include. I am sure there are some great breeders out there, but it seemed that unless we could afford to import from Italy - which we couldn't- [FONT=&amp]all the breeder attitudes toward the breeding and sale of the pups was geared toward the association of desire with affordability, rather than between compatibility and need, and simply (over)priced their stock accordingly. [/FONT]

Anyway, we found someone who was able to demonstrate and actually have his dogs work the yard and his fence line for us and we were able to interact with the dogs and watched the dogs interact with their kids and even with another set of potential buyers too. We visited several times and we have no ill feelings toward these people at all. We have had our dog checked for health issues and all has checked out ok. Sure, they did not have papers, and maybe that is the meaning of back yard breeders, but maybe it was tough for them too to obtain a pure breed dog to work their yard without suffering any grief and simply choose not to obtain registration by not neutering or spaying, etc. We were interested in a dog that was both true to its heritage and ability's and one that met the book standard. If there were no papers, well, papers don't demonstrate ability either. None of the breeders were willing to sell us a dog for what we could afford, nor could any of the breeders demonstrate that their breeding dogs were able to do anything close to what the Cane Corso's job has historically been, if some even allowed us to interact without constant commands on their dogs at all.

We are more than happy with our Cane Corso. He is exceptional, majestic, solid, smart, thinks on his feet, playful, attentive, a great babysitter, and seems to have his own high set of standards for doing his job. We would like to try and obtain papers by way of merit thru proving the dogs ability's and by proving his genetic lineage/soundness, in addition to the sound health of the dog. We are looking at other genetic heritage markers to show no recessive genes etc, but even within pedigreed dogs there are bad recessive genes that can render an animal non breedable, etc. Just looking into all that part now.

So, that is why we did not go with a more 'reputable' breeder.

From what you wrote in this post I'm not surprised that you had trouble finding a reputable breeder that wanted to entrust one of THEIR puppies into your care. By getting a puppy the new owner isn't doing the breeder a favor, the breeder is doing the buyer one. Just my opinion.

 

[Misseau]

"The corso community is small and there are very few responsible breeders
up here in Canada but those that are work $#@! their programs and that
is why they carry a heavier price tag on their pups. Those breeders put a
lot of time, effort, research and money of their own into their dogs,
sometimes scraping a whole line when it doesn't work out. I have never
met a breeder that has not allowed me to interact with their dogs, had
no problems talking to me about the issues/faults with their own dogs
and what they are working to improve on."

One particular breeder seemed very knowledgeable about the breed, the breeds issues, the history and even the problems within the breeding community, but she also said that the dogs were not usually used as working dogs anymore because most breeders were after improving the breed for standards and dogs that did not meet those standards were sold as pets with no breeding contracts and neuter/spay requirements etc. We did not want just a pet though, and it seems like owner ship was either a second class seat or impossible without lying. The historic standard for the Cane Corso is one of working ability, not just standards - which themselves have been changed several times in since the 1970's to accommodate visual appeal and average measurements from certain stock. We wanted a dog that could work and do what the Cane Corso is supposed to do, but also we wanted a dog that meet the standards of the breed for consistency and merit. This was the only breeder that we might have bought from, but her price was waaay up there and she had a waiting list a mile long and all her dogs were kenneled and she openly admitted that she did not train her dogs to 'work', but suggested a few trainers that could help, and she would only sell her highest 'quality' dogs to organizations, etc. Well then. If we wanted a dog that had the aptitude, potential and temperament to work a farm, meet the standard, and was affordable, then we were s.o.l. with going with a breeder cause breeders (as mentioned above) apparently don't want their top pups working on a farm in their traditionally roles. Hmmm.

I guess it seems a bit like a step backwards, and this is just my sentiment on how I feel so no insults please, that these dogs, who are built for and more than capable of doing their job seem just so underutilized and wrapped in a bubble to further the breed standard. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the work many good intended breeders did/do, and especially the work that was done to revitalize the breed, but could you imagine a sheep dog just being a standard dog for breeding with no actual sheep herding done? I mean, to have a ch. dog with tones of ribbons and winnings and presentations is really awesome, but to have the same dog able to chase off a pack of wolves or keep the pigs in line or fend off intruders as part of the actual character and temperament standard would really stand out as being in the best of what the breed can offer. I don't see that here. I'm not a fancier, but I think Chiwawa's are cute and have their place in life like many other dogs that are non working breeds, but the Cane Corso is a working breed. Why don't more breeders raise/train their dogs true to their working heritage in addition to being true to the breeding standard? Can't a Cane Corso be a show champion and do its traditional job too? Isn’t that perspective more in tune and aligned with a reason to breed rather than just pure standard? It’s not like it’s a major undertaking (well for some people I guess) to teach an inclined Cane how to do these things - it’s in their blood sort of speak, and once you have a good working, breeding pair, your time training is not usually as intensive. If a standard quality Cane is not inclined to chase down intruders or take charge of the stock and instead displays a show type temperament and standard instead, then that is a pet with looks, papers and show quality. Of the 7 pups we had to choose from, 4 went to farms type settings (that I know of). I think that seems about fair for the natural order of litter temperaments.

I know that not all Shepherds, for example, can make it thru the academy or become dogs with crime fighting jobs, just as not all Canes have what it takes to work a farm just as not all dogs are Alphas and not all dogs will rise to the top. I get that. I truly do. Yet is seems like somewhere along the line a disconnection took place between bettering the breed for standard and bettering the breed for the betterment of the breed. I get that different breed blood may have been introduced to secure the breeding genes/pool in the 70/80/90's, but surely that was all documented, right? Different breeds were not purposely introduced solely to modify the Cane to meet changing standards, were they?

Known introductions in certain lines that can be accounted for should not really give discredit to a non papered pure blood Cane who's genes may indicate that introduced breed. If that were the case then a percentage of all current registered and breeding quality Canes would also have these non Cane markers and show up now and again in pups making it difficult to justify the exclusion, or credit to be included as registered pure blood even with pedigrees. No, 40 years is not a long time in dog breed history, but if the current Cane dog standard has been so twisted in its breeding to be considered a recent breed now, as pointed out above too, then we are not talking about Cane Corsos here anymore but a mixed breed with the name Cane Corso that was breed to meet a visual standard not consistent with the traditional breeds development. What’s the truth here? Where's the transparency? If mistakes were made, why have they not been acknowledged?

There is a breeder who has a crazy specialized resume for being able to train dogs/Canes for highly specialized jobs - bomb hunting, man tracking, war teams, etc. His cost is staggering and I don't doubt his ability and methods with the kind of track record he has. But I didn't have to pay anyone to teach my Cane how to herd, or how to guard or how to fend off predators, which is what this guy trains his dogs to do - albeit a bit differently, but it is still tracking and hunting, and stalking and then taking the appropriate action, etc on a less intense scale - in other words, its traditional temperament. That's not to say we did not have to do anything, he is in fact still young and being 'trained' in that he is still learning things to do and not to do, but between our 3 dogs (other 2 are mixed rescue dogs) he has been the least of our effort to train, partially because our one older dog is showing him the ropes sort of speak.

Anyway, we ordered the kits from two different places for genetic linage testing, his expensive x-rays for hips and elbow all checked out (the dyspepsia heath part), but the vet said we should redo them after he is 3, and his eyes look great, but there is a recessive gene for that so we'll look into that test too at some point. His teeth and jaw are perfect and his measurements/weight is within regulation. People love to stop us and ask about him when we take him out and about. He's a proud dog and we are proud of him. I never thought of it this way before either, but the more I learn about others opinions the more I guess I too have an interest in the betterment of the breed, but just not with a vision of aesthetics being paramount above ability, rather equal to it as a well rounded breed with historic significance and continuance. I'm sure some/many might scoff, but you know, there is something very reassuring and grounding about old breeds who have been working with (wo)man a long time.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Anyway, we ordered the kits from two different places for genetic linage testing,

you are so totally wowing me with your research skillz.....you realize that genetic breed testing is done by exactly ONE company?? Yes, several places SELL the kits, under a variety of names, but they all actually RUN by ONE company.

If you care so little for the registered dog community then why do you want your dog registered??

 

[QY10]

If you care so little for the registered dog community then why do you want your dog registered??

That is what I am confused by.

You say you don't care about dogs being registered and wanted a dog that could do a job it was historically meant to do, but now you want to register your dog even though that is something you said that you don't care about?

It sounds like you didn't do as much research into breeders as maybe you should have if you wanted a registered dog that was able to wok because I am sure they exist... To me, it sounds like you want your cake and to eat it, too after you've made choices that seriously restrict your ability to do so.

 

[Th0r]

I believe he's just saying that papers and titles mean nothing as far as the ability cause we have moved towards aesthetics solely for breed standards.
I agree with him on that!

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

[ruthcatrin]

I believe he's just saying that papers and titles mean nothing as far as the ability cause we have moved towards aesthetics solely for breed standards.
I agree with him on that!

Sent from my Nexus 5

I'm not arguing with that. But if you're going to go out of your way to find a breeder who's dogs aren't registered and who's producing unregisterable pups due to your dislike of the registered dog system then why is it suddenly so important to register your dog?? You got exactly what you wanted, an unregisterable pup.....

If its so important to you to have a pup with working ability who's also registerable then you have to be willing to not only do the research to FIND a breeder who's doing what you want but also be willing to convince the breeder you're worth placing a pup with (because if you think getting a pup from a good confirmation line breeder is hard, quality working line breeders are almost always even harder get a pup from because they know what their dogs can do), and wait on the waiting list (because those breeders pretty much always have them because their dogs are usually highly sought after), and spend the money(because if you think producing that sort of quality is cheap you live in a different world than I do).....

 

[Abdoman]

well, i hope all goes well for you with your new puppy, love CC like no other,

 

[Oscar'sMom]

What's the big deal if you're so happy with your pup? If he does what you want and is a great looking dog then go you. Registered pups from reputable breeders cost $$$ because they do all the right things (health test, etc). Most breeders will make you sign a non breeding contract if or a pet quality pup...which is normal. You seem happy with your dog, so why do you need registration...seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I understand what you are saying and agree that so many of the wonderful "working dogs" are no longer being bred for the jobs and it is sad and in some cases such a waste. I, too, have spent a great deal of time researching and reading about the Mastiff Types and what they used to be.

Having said that, you bought a puppy from unregistered parents so he is not able to be registered. It does sound like he is working as you wanted him to and you are very happy with him. I also see what you are trying to say.....You DID want a puppy from a breeder that you could register him and he could be acknowledged as a CC But several issues kept that from happening. It can't imagine that you will find a breeder that will give you breeding rights so I wouldn't count on that. Maybe an imported puppy could come with rights but as you said, you just can't afford to go that route.

I would just be glad that you were able to find he breed you wanted and have him do his job. Please share some photos. I would love to get a look at him. Good Luck.