Help with new aggression

[Kelly]

Are you not able to find a local trainer to show you? I just went for one session where she showed me how to put it on ( i was originally sliding it over her head, didn't realize you pull the prongs apart)

I dont know what you mean by dead ring.

When the prong collar is on, you never ever let them have a long lead. They should be right by your side the whole time. that's why I have a flat collar on her as well so I can transition the two. there is enough give on the prong collar that it slides around her neck, so the natural position is for the rings to be on top.

I also have a leash that has a handle right at the point of connection, I love it, its perfect for control and making sure she can't get too far.

She has no issue with the collar also. When she hears it rattling when i pick it up she starts bouncing around and running back and forth and she sits perfectly to let me put it on her. I did try other methods with her but this in combination with treat distractions is what has worked.

 

[STEVSH]

The "d" ring (one ring is usually shaped more like a D) should be towards their right ear on top of the neck (if you are walking him on your left hand side). My prong has a clasp to undo the whole thing so I don't have to slide it over her head. I also use her flat martingale just underneath the prong to keep it high up on the neck where it should be. Works great. The link below is very helpful in the right way to use a prong.

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm?set=1

 

[Smart_Family]

Please be careful with using the prong. Extreme damage can be done if its not used correctly.

 

[bahamamarg]

Hi - I have no acess to a local trainer, I live on an isolated island. I know we are not to let him pull and it's a 'snap' correction. I worry about the prongs being close to his throat when the rings are on top. We had 2 different scenarios today. On our am walk, we encountered a guy on a bicycle. He gets very nervous (or protective not sure which) and jumps around. I had put him back on leash as soon as I saw activity. I moved to the side and made him sit. Snapping the collar to redirect his attention did not work. In fact it seemed to make him worse. Giving him a correction with the shock collar ensured he sat and did not lunge, but he was so intent on the guy. I made a great fuss of him after he passed by and we returned home without incident. We need to help him understand that its ok for people to walk past us - especially on the beach. This evening, hubby brought him to meet me from work. There is a new stray puppy living close to work who we met the other day. They really enjoyed playing together and running on the beach. But the puppy is totally untrained and out of control. Dex wanted to play and he was difficult to restrain with the prong collar - I worry this would damage him by him pulling. Once on the beach we could let him off and they had a great time running and playing. Smart family - are we causing more harm than good???

 

[Smart_Family]

Honestly it doesn't sound like its phasing him and I'm personally not a fan of prong collars or choke chains. If you dont have access to a trainer I would start watching every video and reading every book possible on dog training. There are a lot of videos on YouTube. Do you have a library?

 

[bahamamarg]

Lol - you mean a physical, actual library with books!!! No, we don't have, I have a slow internet - most YouTube stuff does not load good but working on that. Reading as much as I can online, chatting with you all, chatting with a trainer - even just got Cesars leadership book. so far, I'm not a fan of the prong either but totally could just be our lack of knowledge on it - am sure that most of his problems are most likely our fault and not his!!!

 

[Kelly]

Put the prong collar away then, until you can get a trainer to show you how to use it. It may not even be the way to go with him. When you were redirecting, did you use treats? The lunging isn't going to stop overnight, but he will learn a different way of reacting eventually.

Tess still lunges once inawhile if Im not using treats, but mostly she will just pull a little to go and see the other dog. Before I got the prong collar she was literally dragging me on my a$$, Im not joking, so I had to do something. But I almost dont even need a leash on her if Im redirecting her attention with treats.

 

[bahamamarg]

Yes, you are probably right. 99% of the time he is off leash on the beach and just enjoying the time. I've just started with the treat thing - never used that method before with any dog and not sure it truly works when it comes down to the wire, but there again, I've never had such a huge dog before either! Unfortunately on that day, I'd picked up the treat pouch without checking and it was empty! Will keep going with it. He is so well trained in every other aspect - never had such a well trained dog before either (thanks to his very smart previous owner on that one!) it's got to be a learned behavior most likely coming from my initial nervousness and our recently passed older dog who used to do just that. In the first few weeks, I purposely took him close to people on the beach believing it would help to show him they were not a threat. He was nervous and jumpy but easily calmed. That only last the first couple of times and after that it's now a true lunging and trying his best to get to the person. He absolutely responds to the e collar and i may just have to give up resisting using it - it may make all our lives less stressful.

 

[chuckorlando]

Are you sure it's not the leash it's self? Our Dane is great off a leash. But on he will rear up like a horse, barks and lunges at dogs. Off the leash he comes when called, just runs and runs, plays with other dogs. He hates the leash. He's fine on one just us walking, but not with other animals around

 

[STEVSH]

Same with Topaz. She LOVES to play with other dogs, but on the leash she is reactive. She lunges and snarls. We are working on this though and it has gotten much better.

 

[bahamamarg]

Well now, I would not know quite how to test that theory without putting someone at GREAT danger! What if he attacks and does not stop? He's definitely better off leash at night in the dark as he's often nervous then, but I don't let him off until the end of the walk when close to home so I can see in the light in case there is someone approaching that I can not see. stevesh - you say you are working with Topaz - what are you trying?

 

[STEVSH]

Really smelly, chewy, mouthwatering treats are in my pocket when we walk on leash. And we were trained on the prong collar which I love. When I see a person with another dog walking towards us, I do whatever it takes to keep her attention on me. I say "watch me" all the time now, and when she looks, she gets treats galore. We learned "Watch me" in training, but never really used it until this leash reactive thing came about. I will also completely change course on her to make sure she's focused on me too sometimes, or pop her butt with my foot from behind to startle her back to me too. It's been quite a few months now, and she is doing very well. I don't have to cross the street a block or two prior to avoid a dog like we first did. I still move onto the street when someone is approaching on the sidewalk, but that's just personal preference anyhow. I don't trust anyone else's dog either. And because mine's bigger, I take the street
And I stopped going to the dog park. That was just feeding her unwanted behavior and no one had control of their dog. There were quite a few dogs there that were "rough players", and Topaz started taking on that too. So when she saw another dog on leash, she would immediately start snarling, howling, and lunging to play rough. At least that's my theory.

 

[mia]

The main point is the OP's dog is 4 years old. The point to teach him people are great is past, closed, forever gone. He already has ideas about people. Now you work to train him to ignore and largely accept people near him.

I am curious, do mean this for this breed or for dogs in general? Having done rescue for many years I would disagree. I don't want to get in a pissing match but having taken in many fearful, aggressive, basically dogs that would have been PTS at the shelter and being able to rehab them, including re-socializing them to humans. I don't quite understand this statement.

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

I am curious, do mean this for this breed or for dogs in general? Having done rescue for many years I would disagree. I don't want to get in a pissing match but having taken in many fearful, aggressive, basically dogs that would have been PTS at the shelter and being able to rehab them, including re-socializing them to humans. I don't quite understand this statement.

Having done rescue for many years, I assume you are familiar with fear reactive dogs. This sentence in itself is a little out of context due to the post above it being changed. The post before mine, that was changed recommended to take the dog out and socialize it as much as possible (as you would a new puppy). That was a very bad idea for a large fear reactive/aggressive dog. For a puppy absolutely, but for this dog no. For dogs in general that have this type of fear reactive it takes A LONG TIME to work through it properly. And the OP is not familiar in handling this type of behavior and has no access to a trainer to help him, and has admittedly missed early stress signs in this dog. Therefore to take the dog out in public, not being able to handle him/gauge reactions is dangerous.

It was also meant for the short term, as I believe one of my earlier posts stated. For a few months while dog and new owners are adjusting.

And yes my statement applies to dogs in general, to socialize a puppy to new things/places (almost to the point of over-stimulation) will eventually create a more confident well rounded, adaptable dog. To rehab an adult dog (any species IMO, but especially molossers or any "guardian" breed) takes a much different approach. And while I agree that you can certainly teach dogs new manners, and new coping and socialization skills, It is not the same as a puppy taught that way from birth. In rehabbed dogs, of this temperament, there will always be some "quirk" or behavior that needs to be managed, in the right home with owners who have the knowledge and skills.

PS: I never have a problem with anyone disagreeing with anything I say, so long as it's done politely and "like an adult". Everyone has different ideas and opinions on training, and with no one here seeing the dogs in question "in person" it makes it even harder. I always try to listen and am open to new ideas, it's the way we learn something.

 

[chuckorlando]

Yep that was my fault. I did'nt read back and thought this was a little one. Not a huge dog that can really do some damage. I edited my post as to not lead someone else in the wrong direction

 

[mia]

Thanks I read it out of context.... I agree taking an older fear reactive dog out like a pup to socialize wouldn't be the best idea......

 

[bahamamarg]

I love this site! It's so interesting to hear everyone else's stories and points of view. He's doing well I think, but since we don't often encounter people on the beach it's tough to tell. He met 3 new people yesterday without incident at the house. It's been a month now since the almost bite incident so we are taking advise and going slowly.

 

[Cody]

With the prong collar you have to be VERY careful. It does not work the same on every dog.
My young female, for example, it agitates. This is true for many dominant dogs.
If you have no one to teach you how to properly use a prong or e collar you need to stop using them. You can create serious problems if your timing is off, make the issues worse.
Judging by what you said, when you used the ecollar the dog stopped the "action" but not the focus or zoning.
That in itself is saying that what you are doing is not working. These tools should be used to redirect the focus back to you, not to mask the warning signs.
To be honest, without access to a trainer familiar with working breeds at least, I am worried for you.
Watching vids can help, but is hard to learn the signs on video. I would follow the advise above, but try to find some help...

 

[bahamamarg]

Hi all, well it's been a while so update on what we've been doing. We've been still practicing avoidance and have had no visitors/ strangers around him. I partially agree with Cody - I think that the prong collar agitated him, so going on that theory, we are back to just the e collar and a regular choke chain or flat collar in the water. It's starting to get hot here, so he's been wanting to go into the ocean on the evening walk. He has yet to show me a 'swim' but I think that will come - he's not sure about the power of the wave action yet. - I told someone the other day, that you have to accept that the power of the water is in charge!! He's still very jumpy about everything. The other day it was an innocent piece of platic garbage that was bobbing around on the shoreline. That day I had him on leash - which is unusual on the beach as I don't normally need it. At this point I don't know if I should keep him moving forward when scary things come, or if I should stop and try and wait for "it" to pass us by? I have tried to get his focus on me using treats, snapping on the prong, encouragement, toys - nothing works apart from the e collar. That stops him and he then looks to me for further direction. His usual treats that he loves and is so good with normally, he couldn't care less under distraction. He's been good on the 2 times he's met me from work and even had fun with a little pot cake (stray dog) puppy that's popped up by the dock - although he was difficult to keep in line while on leash bedore we could get onto the beach and let him run. It was great to see him tearing around after the puppy..I would love to post a picture of him for you, but am always on iPad and can't quite figure it out!!

 

[chuckorlando]

With the prong collar you have to be VERY careful. It does not work the same on every dog.
My young female, for example, it agitates. This is true for many dominant dogs.
If you have no one to teach you how to properly use a prong or e collar you need to stop using them. You can create serious problems if your timing is off, make the issues worse.
Judging by what you said, when you used the ecollar the dog stopped the "action" but not the focus or zoning.
That in itself is saying that what you are doing is not working. These tools should be used to redirect the focus back to you, not to mask the warning signs.
To be honest, without access to a trainer familiar with working breeds at least, I am worried for you.
Watching vids can help, but is hard to learn the signs on video. I would follow the advise above, but try to find some help...

Like a spur under a horse saddle. Some lay down and dont make for a good show. Some get pissed and become world known. Each animal is diffrent.

Thats good things have been working out better for ya'll. We hope it continues