Front pull harness

[Boxergirl]

I don't honestly know any trainer that claims to be 100% force free. Many of the most well respected force free trainers have written articles on the fact that they aren't "purely" positive. Corrections happen in many ways, but the spray bottle is 100% punishment. It doesn't in any way show the dog what you want or set the dog up to make correct choices.

Nik, I'm not nitpicking with your term. I just want people that maybe don't know as much about positive training techniques to understand that any trainer that uses the term purely positive or says they never use corrections is representing themselves in maybe not so truthful terms. Perhaps they don't even realize that they are misrepresenting themselves. Many people think that as long as it's not a physical correction or punishment then it doesn't count. I strongly disagree with that. Having a daughter that is just getting her feet wet as an aspiring trainer has made me really consider what I find acceptable in the way of corrections and what I don't. I can say that every class Otis has been to at our training facility was as positive as it could be. He was encouraged to make good choices and rewarded. He was not jerked, sprayed, abruptly yanked around, or physically forced or even encouraged physically into any position. Ways were found to help him figure out what was wanted and then that choice was rewarded.

This is a very good read. I know I lean heavily toward clicker trainers, but that's primarily how we teach. Patricia McConnell and others also have blog posts and articles discussing this issue. I would also strongly suggest that everyone visit a beginner obedience class and observe the actual methods before paying for a class. If you aren't allowed to observe then I would not use that facility.

https://clickertraining.com/node/988

 

[Boxergirl]

I also wanted to say that I don't think a spray of water is the end of the world. For most dogs. Aversive is whatever the dog finds aversive. Many dogs would think getting sprayed was a hoot. Others would think it was the worst thing ever. Some wouldn't even notice. It's the idea that the trainer immediately jumped to a punishment without knowing your dog at all or attempting to solve what she felt was a problem in a positive way. Here's another good read that I share all the time about LIMA.

https://iaabc.org/about/LIMA

 

[Jarena]

I also wanted to say that I don't think a spray of water is the end of the world. For most dogs. Aversive is whatever the dog finds aversive. Many dogs would think getting sprayed was a hoot. Others would think it was the worst thing ever. Some wouldn't even notice. It's the idea that the trainer immediately jumped to a punishment without knowing your dog at all or attempting to solve what she felt was a problem in a positive way. Here's another good read that I share all the time about LIMA.

https://iaabc.org/about/LIMA

I think the spray bottle would be a punishment for Lettie. She hates water! First she would probably scrunch up her nose and turn away. After a few times, I think she would start trying to kill the spray bottle, or running away from it.

The gentle leader- I think I’m going to try to reintroduce it to Lettie the correct way, and much slower this time. Lots of treats and love and happy puppy voices. If I can get her to tolerate/enjoy it, hopefully it will be a nice tool to help with the process.

As for trainers- I’m a little turned off honestly. It’s probably because I haven’t found the right trainer. But both that I have been to (Petco and yesterday) have told us that we are doing great and they could tell that I have done my research. I am NOT claiming to know it all, of coarse. But so far everything that they taught me, I either already knew or I read on this forum! I want to be super clear and say that I am not meaning this in a cocky way at all. I just maybe need some help understanding what’s the benifit of a professional vs asking for advice on this forum? I really hope I’m not offending anyone with this. I probably just don’t get it because I haven’t found the right one.

Boxergirl- maybe I just need to start asking trainers to observe classes, that’s great advice

 

[Boxergirl]

I think some people need the structure of a class. If they don't have the class, they won't train. My daughter's boxer, Otis, is being trained as as service dog. She's a vet tech pursuing a behavior specialty and is starting the Karen Pryor Academy in March. She's already a very good trainer. Classes were good for distractions and for her to have someone that sees things she doesn't see. But again - this group of trainers is like minded and very good at what they do so it works for us. She keeps him in class constantly just for the structure. I've been in some bad classes and walked out. One where they took my happy, prancing boxer puppy and hung him for walking too far ahead. He was sensitive and I worked for a long time to rebuild his confidence after that.

I've never had a dog that didn't fight the gentle leader. I did try the head harness from Bold Lead Designs and liked it much better. It's a very simple design, but it fit my boxers much better. There are a lot of resources if you want to train yourself. Maybe start a new thread on what the behaviors are that you're looking to change or teach?

 

[Boxergirl]

There are also some online classes that are fun. Check out the Fenzi Sports Academy. A lot of stuff is sport related, but there are other foundation classes that are of benefit. Bronze starts at $65. I'm not sure what's being offered coming up.

Also take a look at Udemy. There are some good Ian Dunbar seminars. They go on sale frequently. Looks like most of them are $15 right now.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I am sorry that you had such a crap experience, unfortunately there are a lot that think they are trainers and are good at making themselves look good on paper (happens with breeders as well). I have heard good things about the Fenzi classes but you can also look online and youtube videos to help you work on things, then take the exercises to a public location to work through with distractions. We don't do positive or corrective trainers, we look for balanced trainers that are open minded for training techniques as well as training tools.

 

[Boxergirl]

Just a note on trainers that say they are balanced. Calling yourself a balanced trainer has become rather trendy lately. Balanced may mean totally different things to each trainer, so you have to be careful. Which is why it's so important to observe a class, preferably with unruly puppies or adolescent dogs. Again, if you can't observe one class then avoid the trainer. I think that most of us that look for balanced trainers actually want trainers that use the Least Invasive Minimally Aversive ideology. Start with positive and then go forward incrementally to see what works best for the individual dog.

Mary is right. There are also good videos and you can work out in public for distractions. The only thing is that in a class the distractions are controlled to a great degree. You never know what you're going to get in public with all the ignorant humans out there.

 

[Nik]

I find structured courses useful for a variety of reasons.

1. It is an easy way to teach around massive distractions. You have tons of dogs and people there... it is very distracting for the pups. Training for that in a safe and controlled environment is something I find valuable.
2. If you get stuck on a particular issue you have someone here observing how you are handling it and they might be able to make helpful suggestions for adjustments based on what they see in real time.
3. There can never be too much training or too many sources of knowledge in my opinion
4. A good trainer may have equipment and resources you don't have for different training activities (my current trainer has an amazing agility course and a really cool scent training toolkit).

That said not all trainers are equal and you have to find one that you trust and is a good fit for you and your dog. Almost every trainer I have been to has a one free session policy... The one free session helps a lot to determine if you want to try it out.

 

[Jarena]

I think some people need the structure of a class. If they don't have the class, they won't train. My daughter's boxer, Otis, is being trained as as service dog. She's a vet tech pursuing a behavior specialty and is starting the Karen Pryor Academy in March. She's already a very good trainer. Classes were good for distractions and for her to have someone that sees things she doesn't see. But again - this group of trainers is like minded and very good at what they do so it works for us. She keeps him in class constantly just for the structure. I've been in some bad classes and walked out. One where they took my happy, prancing boxer puppy and hung him for walking too far ahead. He was sensitive and I worked for a long time to rebuild his confidence after that.

I've never had a dog that didn't fight the gentle leader. I did try the head harness from Bold Lead Designs and liked it much better. It's a very simple design, but it fit my boxers much better. There are a lot of resources if you want to train yourself. Maybe start a new thread on what the behaviors are that you're looking to change or teach?

That all makes sense, though, I love training my girl . And having someone there to see what you don’t see is a good point. I will make an effort with reintroducing the gentle leader but I’m not going to push too hard since she has already had one bad experience with it. I will have to look into the other head harness you mention. If neither of these tool work, I’ll just have to work extra hard with her on the leash skills thanks for your reply.

 

[Jarena]

I find structured courses useful for a variety of reasons.

1. It is an easy way to teach around massive distractions. You have tons of dogs and people there... it is very distracting for the pups. Training for that in a safe and controlled environment is something I find valuable.
2. If you get stuck on a particular issue you have someone here observing how you are handling it and they might be able to make helpful suggestions for adjustments based on what they see in real time.
3. There can never be too much training or too many sources of knowledge in my opinion
4. A good trainer may have equipment and resources you don't have for different training activities (my current trainer has an amazing agility course and a really cool scent training toolkit).

That said not all trainers are equal and you have to find one that you trust and is a good fit for you and your dog. Almost every trainer I have been to has a one free session policy... The one free session helps a lot to determine if you want to try it out.

Safe and controlled is a good point, I was just thinking “I can take her in public for distractions”. Also, what you said before about finding a trainer I click with, like I would need to click with a therapist, makes a lot of sense to me. It’s just going to be hard since I am very introverted and meeting new people isn’t my thing haha, I’ll just have to do it for Lettie!

Having a second set of eyes to see if I’m doing something a little wrong, another thing I didn’t think of. As well as having different equipment.

Thank you for your input, I knew there would be helpful advice about why to use a trainer. I just needed more brains to help me out!

 

[Nik]

Safe and controlled is a good point, I was just thinking “I can take her in public for distractions”. Also, what you said before about finding a trainer I click with, like I would need to click with a therapist, makes a lot of sense to me. It’s just going to be hard since I am very introverted and meeting new people isn’t my thing haha, I’ll just have to do it for Lettie!

Having a second set of eyes to see if I’m doing something a little wrong, another thing I didn’t think of. As well as having different equipment.

Thank you for your input, I knew there would be helpful advice about why to use a trainer. I just needed more brains to help me out!

Hey I'm right there with you as an introvert. My husband teases me about it allllll the time. And he isn't really an extrovert just not quite as introverted and socially anxious as I am.