Front pull harness

[Jarena]

Well, it happened, Lettie finally pulled me to the ground. I was holding onto her because she was getting too rough playing with her doggy friend (she is outgrowing all her friends). She just got too excited and pulled me down. I knew it would happen someday. Scraped my knees and left me with a nasty bruise.

So I have decided to work more heavily on her commands and to work more on loose leash walking. But she is still learning so she still pulls when on the leash. That’s why I decided to try a front attaching harness. I LOVE THIS THING! She still pulls a little but it’s sooooo much better than it was. The only thing that worries me is how much it “twists” her. It works because it’s uncomfortable, but is uncomfortable good for her growing joints? I hope this harness is temporary but I know loose leash training can take awhile. Any input/advice/suggestions?

 

[Boxergirl]

Which harness are you using? There is some concern about front hook harnesses that pinch the shoulders.

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_7/features/the-no-pull-debate_20782-1.html

May I ask how you are training using the harness to loose leash walk? Has she been to a class and can you take her to another for specifically working on any problem behaviors?

 

[Jarena]

Which harness are you using? There is some concern about front hook harnesses that pinch the shoulders.

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_7/features/the-no-pull-debate_20782-1.html

May I ask how you are training using the harness to loose leash walk? Has she been to a class and can you take her to another for specifically working on any problem behaviors?

This is the harness, from Petsmart. And we went to puppy class at Petco. We were told to stop walking when she pulls. I want to take her to more classes or to a trainer, I think I’m doing pretty well handling her little issues but I know that I’m no professional and I know that it’s just a good idea for a puppy to go to classes.

I’m feeling a little overwhelmed finding a good trainer in my area. Her puppy class was ok, but the lady was not experienced in large, stubborn breeds. Even she admitted that she was new, I think she was about the same age as me (27).

 

[Boxergirl]

I've never been thrilled with the Petco trainers. If you want to share your location maybe we can find you a good trainer in your area.

 

[Jarena]

I've never been thrilled with the Petco trainers. If you want to share your location maybe we can find you a good trainer in your area.

Northern Indiana, Notre Dame area.

 

[Boxergirl]

Okay. I'm in NW Indiana. How far are you willing and/or able to drive? If you were closer to my area, I'd highly suggest Lisa Bataska training facility in Merrillville. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that's too far for you to drive for a weekly lesson. I'll do a little looking closer to South Bend.

 

[Jarena]

Okay. I'm in NW Indiana. How far are you willing and/or able to drive? If you were closer to my area, I'd highly suggest Lisa Bataska training facility in Merrillville. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that's too far for you to drive for a weekly lesson. I'll do a little looking closer to South Bend.

Ugh, I wish I could say I would go that far. And if I were having very serious issues with Lettie, I would be willing to make that trip weekly. But Merrillville is almost 2 hours from me

I really appreciate the suggestion though, and welcome more suggestions if you have them. Thanks for your help

 

[Boxergirl]

Ugh, I wish I could say I would go that far. And if I were having very serious issues with Lettie, I would be willing to make that trip weekly. But Merrillville is almost 2 hours from me

I really appreciate the suggestion though, and welcome more suggestions if you have them. Thanks for your help

Haha, I knew it would be too far. I found this trainer in South Bend. I'm impressed with what I see, from her credentials all the way down to the books she has on her list. Don't let the prices turn you off, they're reasonable.

http://www.pawinhandtraining.com/

 

[Jarena]

Haha, I knew it would be too far. I found this trainer in South Bend. I'm impressed with what I see, from her credentials all the way down to the books she has on her list. Don't let the prices turn you off, they're reasonable.

http://www.pawinhandtraining.com/

That’s very close and yes, I agree, those prices are very reasonable. I paid close to that for Petco! Thank you!!

 

[DennasMom]

The front-clip harnesses are just confusing to me... I, too, would wonder if the unbalanced 'twist' is a good thing for growing joints and muscles...
The back harnesses are probably worse - I put one on Denna the other day, and it was like having brakes with ZERO steering ability. I can only imagine the front-harness is like having a car that pulls to one side when you step on the brakes... which is not normally considered 'safe' operation.

On training...
I cringe when I hear mastiffs called a "large, stubborn breed"... they are NOT stubborn. They are Independent Thinkers!
As independent thinkers, they can take different motivators for training. Find your dog's top motivating object, and your training will go soooooo much easier!

If your dog is food motivated, that's easy! (thus, labs and other food-hounds are considered "easy to train").
High prey-drive dogs can be motivated with games of tug or rewarded with a few tosses of a tennis ball.

Mastiffs are guardian dogs. They are naturally independent thinkers (from being left to tend the herd or flock without human supervision), and are more often family-motivated, with high "pack-drive" tendencies. That means they respond to PRAISE and LOVE... but still tend to do something once - just because they love you, and then will return to their "job" as supervisor again.

I can motivate Denna with food (as long as it's GOOD food)... otherwise, I need to keep her in 'pack-drive' mentality, which means lots of love, praise and 'fluffing' to keep her engaged with what I'm asking her to do. If her mind starts to wander, I can voice my disappointment, and that will also return her focus back to me. If I have to resort to 'angry mom' voice, she responds VERY quick to my command...

For pulling on the leash - yes, a quick STOP as soon as you feel pressure will quickly let Lettie know that pulling will get her NOTHING. A Stop and then start walking in the opposite direction (with no words and minimal sounds to alert her to your actions) will also help return her focus back to you and off what she was pulling ahead to get to... and also will teach her that she needs to keep tabs on you at all times, or you might pull a 180 on her!

If Denna pulls too much, I stop and ask for a "Come Around" - which means she has to return to me, go around behind me from the right side to the left and stop in a heel position - THEN we will resume our walk. If I give the "ok" or "let's go" - she's free to surge ahead again (on her flexi)... or I give her a "with me" command for her to stick close to my side. She's smart enough to know the difference between the tension on a flexi lead and the pulling when she hits the end of it, too... she's also smart enough to know where 15' from me is - i.e. she RARELY hits the end of the flexi, and stops to sniff a bush at about 14.5' to give me time to catch up.

Anther thing I've taught my dogs when walking, is that they are NEVER to step off a curb without stopping first... When we come up on the corner to a street, we stop (without stepping off the curb), look both ways, then continue with a "Cross" command (or 'heel' or 'with me' or 'let's go' depending on situation). When you consistently stop at corners/curbs, every time, the dog learns very quick to anticipate the stop.

Mastiffs are really quick learners, not hard to teach, not stubborn... SMART! Smart enough that they get bored doing the same commands over and over again...

 

[Courtney H]

I use the gentle leader full harness for my dogs. They don’t pull at all when I use them. Cora isn’t so much of the problem, it’s Axel. I just feel I have better control over him if he does decide to pull. But honestly, they are pretty good walkers. We didn’t do classes, I just used a lot of techniques I learned awhile back when I took a course while volunteering at the animal shelter. They had trainers come in and teach us obedience training for the shelter dogs.

 

[Jarena]

Yes, the back harness is bad, it just makes Lettie pull non-stop!! It’s super comfortable for her to just pull and pull, she loves it, me not so much.


So....foot in mouth, “large stubborn breed” is not a good way to describe them, you’re right of coarse. Lettie is a smart, very quick learner, just with the “what’s in it for me?” attitude. I know better, I just need to start thinking before I speak/type. Thank you for pointing out my mistake


Lucky for me, Lettie is very food motivated. I can almost always just use her own kibble as treats, of coarse I do use higher value food for certain things or when working around distractions.


When we are on walks I have to turn on my “puppy brain” and spot the distractions before she does. Then I have been trying to have her “look” at me. She has started to automatically look at me sometimes when there isn’t too much distraction. She is still a pup after all.


When I do the 180 leash training, I was never taught to do it without warning. That makes sense and we will be working on that for sure!


I have also been trying to hard wire her to stop at every curb/street. Before we hit the curb I have her “sit” and “stay” then when I determine the coast is clear I “release” her.


I think I am going to call the place that Boxergirl found for me. I feel like I’m doing a pretty good job with Lettie but a little professional help can’t hurt Also thank you ladies, everyone here is so kind and helpful!!

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Which harness are you using? There is some concern about front hook harnesses that pinch the shoulders.

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_7/features/the-no-pull-debate_20782-1.html

May I ask how you are training using the harness to loose leash walk? Has she been to a class and can you take her to another for specifically working on any problem behaviors?

I thought I read something similiar something about restricting movement that is required for proper muscle grow/memory.

 

[Boxergirl]

I thought I read something similiar something about restricting movement that is required for proper muscle grow/memory.

There are several good articles about this. I had them bookmarked but lost them when my computer died.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

There are several good articles about this. I had them bookmarked but lost them when my computer died.

Yeah I need to start to save links in a FB document or something so I have ready access to them from no matter where I am. I am bad for storing on my computer and when it dies I loose everything.

 

[Jarena]

So we just left doggy class. It was not that great . She didn’t introduce herself. Then, she would ask me a question, and as I was responding, she was texting. She kept texting. And texting. And texting.

She also told me that I need to use a spray bottle on Lettie, because she was barking. Do you know why she was barking? The trainer didn’t say hello to Lettie, just aggressively tried to stuff her snout into a gentle leader. So Lettie decided she needed to be barked at. Also this lady had a dog in a kennel, where we were working. So Lettie barked at the dog. That would have been fine if it were for training purposes, like an intentional distraction. But it was just unprofessional.

She also let people in the building, went into another room with them for 5 minutes, then let them out of the building. I know stuff happens, maybe she really had to meet with these people and there was no other time to do it. But she didnt say a word about it to us, like no “excuse me for a few minutes” or “sorry” or “I’ll be right back”. Just jumped up and left, then came back like nothing happened. We paid $90 for an hour of private training and all we got was 50 minutes of disappointment.

 

[Boxergirl]

Wait, this was the positive trainer from the above website? If that's the case, then she's misrepresented herself and I'd be asking for a refund. Very unprofessional and no way is the spray bottle positive reinforcement. That's a punishment. I'm really sorry. I thought her website looked very much like the trainer we go to and I feel bad for even suggesting you give it a try. As for the gentle leader - it's my opinion that it's aversive to many dogs. Most dogs, actually. And the way she introduced it was completely wrong. I would NOT go back to this trainer. Was your actual trainer the owner? If not, then I would speak with the owner about why you are displeased. If it was the owner then I would demand a refund because those are not force free training tactics. I would contact her as soon as possible and let her know how you feel. And then I would leave a review.

 

[Jarena]

Wait, this was the positive trainer from the above website? If that's the case, then she's misrepresented herself and I'd be asking for a refund. Very unprofessional and no way is the spray bottle positive reinforcement. That's a punishment. I'm really sorry. I thought her website looked very much like the trainer we go to and I feel bad for even suggesting you give it a try. As for the gentle leader - it's my opinion that it's aversive to many dogs. Most dogs, actually. And the way she introduced it was completely wrong. I would NOT go back to this trainer. Was your actual trainer the owner? If not, then I would speak with the owner about why you are displeased. If it was the owner then I would demand a refund because those are not force free training tactics. I would contact her as soon as possible and let her know how you feel. And then I would leave a review.

Yes this is the same trainer. Don’t feel bad though, it’s not your fault at all! I went to her because I trust your judgement, and I still do . Like you said, she certainly did misrepresent herself. It was the owner that we had the session with, my boyfriend actually recognized her from his high school.

She kept threatening the spray bottle “keep that up and I’ll be getting the spray bottle in a minute”. I almost thought I heard wrong. She never got out the spray bottle, I would have left. But she suggested that we should use it at home when Lettie barks. I told her that Lettie will usually stop barking when I tell her to.

I explained to her that she is generally true to her breed and aloof around strangers but she isn’t ever “like this”(she wouldn’t stop barking at her). I explained that she needs to know you before someone can just walk up and put a gentle leader on her. Lettie would not let her put the gentle leader on her at all (duh!) the lady actually had to go stand on the other side of the room before Lettie would calm down. Then, since I was rushed to introduce it to her, of coarse she didn’t like it much.

The worst part was this lady taking Lettie from us and demonstrating how to use the gentle leader. Now I’m not an expert but I’m also not dumb, I would be GENTLE with it and not pull her. Isn’t that the whole point? To kinda let the dog learn that pulling is uncomfortable? But not to pull them because that’s painful?! Also, to introduce it should take a few days of positive association and walking in the living room? She just grabbed Lettie and kinda dragged her along while Lettie was bucking and jumping and freaking out. I think Matt and I were just stunned. It makes me sick just thinking about it. I think Matt is contacting her tomorrow.

 

[Boxergirl]

That's horrendous. I would not have expected any of that from the information on her website. That is beyond unacceptable and I can't honestly imagine any force free trainer doing those things. I truly hope this doesn't have an adverse effect on Lettie. I'm very angry for you. Please let me know how the discussion with her goes. PM me if you're more comfortable.

 

[Nik]

Wow. I would never claim to 100 percent use positive reinforcement only myself because I have found each of my dogs requires something a little different based on their particular personality... But, I would certain expect a trainer claiming to be 100 percent force free to use positive reinforcement only. And the lack of professionalism you describe and the way she approached your dog in general is pretty disturbing in my opinion. I agree with Boxergirl. I would look for someone different. Aside from that a trainer is much like a therapist you need to click with them and trust them which you clearly don't.