double entendre : Therapy Dog...

[Catia]

Ok, here goes...
There are days where I honestly feel Tessa is a Therapy Dog, albeit not in the traditional sense.
...Tessa is causing ME to need therapy...

I DO dig deep, but there are times, dammit, where I just feel my efforts are futile.

Often, I am at a loss about what I should do about it, partly because I have no base outside of here for understanding where my expectations should be.

Other people with dogs, including trainers-- cannot help me, they just piss me off to an extent that is unexplainable--offering their ridiculous "solutions" as if I am some idiot.
Their stupid shit doesn't work at all, or only works if a treat is involved.

Some days I just feel stupid, like there is something I should have been able to figure out by now, with Tessa going on 11 months.
Usually by this age, with any other pooch I've had, there are very few surprises, & most training is solid & it's just reinforcement.
Some things with Tessa are going backwards & I am not sure why.
She was extremely low reactive from 11 weeks forward, but now is becoming different.
Things I thought were learned & "down pat" are not.

I now avoid even basic conversation with some acquaintances who train & show/compete with their dogs (shepherds/rotties & shutzhund) because it is obvious to me that they think me incapable.
The attitude I get is that I just don't understand dogs, & if I could "just understand", I could "properly" train Tessa.

Also, in addition, I get the "it's probably your reaction" or "it's your attitude, dogs pick up on those things"...
I've also been told that since she is food driven, there is nothing that I cannot teach her, including RELIABLE RECALL.

I've been talked down to more than a few times in the past 8 months, & when I explain TM's are different, I am met with "that's ridiculous" & more "every dog can be trained & reliable"--so on & so forth.
Mostly, I am told the issue is me. That there is something I am/am not doing properly.

Thing is, there IS a large part of me that DOES believe this.

I myself am not so convinced TM's can't be reliable with commands-there are TM therapy dogs-although not many, but TM's are rare to begin with, so not going to have as many therapy dogs.
If they can be trained to that degree of reliability, then obviously they can be trained.

Then I remember the results of many various tests I looked up (can't remember the acronyms off hand)-the tests for reactivity & so forth, that showed the % of breeds that got certified/passed those tests, & TM is at the bottom percentiles for TM's entering & passing.

I did not post this in the training/behavior section because I feel it actually needs to be in the TM section.
I do not believe normal training methods work for TM's thinking process, & I need to hear from TM owners specifically.
I think it has something to do with TM's need to "problem solve" & their independent thinking combined.


Thing is, Tessa is not necessarily "bad"--she isn't--she's more unreliable & untrustworthy, which is a nightmare some days/weeks.

Coming upon 11 months, she still must be crated if I am out of the house-even for a minute, hell, if I am out of the room for a minute she can't be trusted, & sometimes (more than I like to admit before now)-she can't even be trusted in the same damn room as me, because she will wait until my eyes are off her. She can be sleeping at my feet, & manage to move so quietly I do not notice & steal something & destroy it. This is despite a living room floor covered with "toys"--aka things Tessa is allowed to destroy. That is how Tessa "plays" most of the time--she destroys things, which is fine, I know this is what she likes to do, so I regularly give her an ample supply of things she can rip apart. Problem is she seems to have "attention deficit disorder", she quickly gets bored & looks for something else.

Lately it has been gloves-hats-every single glove/hat I owned-it's not like I leave them laying around, nope, I learned not to after the 1st pair of garden gloves she destroyed in the summer.
But now, she goes into coat pockets, swipes them from the top of the coat rack, which I have yet to catch her doing--although we have been in the same room. It's like I need a surveillance system.

Tessa *premeditates*--this is a FACT.
I've been told so many times dogs cannot anticipate or plan-because they have no concept of time-which is utterly ridiculous.

I've had some 'dumb' dogs in the past, & even they showed the ability to discern the passing of time.
And those same 'dumb dogs' were also able to be trained, repetition being key.

Tessa is a stealthy opportunist, & has the drive to out wait me.
Tessa also has a degree of self control I have never seen in any other type of pooch, it has to be self control, otherwise she'd not be able to out wait me to go after what she wants in the manner of which she does. It can actually carry over into a next day. She forgets nothing.

Now, how do I ever "harness" her ability of self control--& direct it where I want it?
it's not like I intend to use it for the purposes of evil LOL

Why can't I train a smart dog???

And how on god's green earth do you ever break a bad habit with a TM?
Some of her bad habits have been since day 1 & have not broken despite my efforts.
Like her reaction to my 1 cat.
Some things she has just worn me down on over 8 months, & I have reached a state of frustrated apathy.

Other things I am just realizing recently are a bigger issue than I once thought.
I'll go more into THAT issue in another post.

...I seriously need my head examined...Therapy on...

 

[ruthcatrin]

I'll blow your brain further....I know of TM's who compete in obeidence

But their owners admit that not every obeidence trial goes as planned lol

I've mostly learned to ignore the trainer types. Or, on the rare occasion I trust them, I hand them his leash and ask them to show me.

They do premeditate. And plan. And yes, many dog people can't accept that.

We DID have Apollo to the point of MOSTLY no longer needing to be crated by 9months-ish, but I know of other TMs who have to be crated their entire lives when left indoors without supervision.

Its mostly a time thing. At 11 months a TM is really still a puppy. Apollo's almost 3, and I can honestly say that its really just been this last year that I can really say he's lost a signifigant portion of the puppy-ish-ness.

And he'll still destroy the mail if I set it down within reach lol.

 

[neve102]

This all sounds so familiar I work on the analogy that I’ve had extremely easy, obedient and wonderful dogs in the past that don’t give me an ounce of the joy that Tully (and interest) and some of our other rat bags gives us (It helps me get through the day)

I say this after spending yesterday gardening , sitting back and watching Tully prance straight over to the new plantings and to start to relocate them for me My rest time was then spent erecting a fence around the plants so that Tully could go and find something else to “fix†that wouldn’t be as upsetting.

Every day we watch in amazement at what this little dog gets up to. I suspect we are raising a spoilt little monster but like you say, when they stretch out asleep on their bags with their legs hanging in the air, or they snuggle up for that 28 seconds they give you at a time it’s all worth it - wouldn’t trade her for the world!

I’ll also second / third that they premeditate and are very deliberate in what they decided they will and won’t do. I had a perfect angel at dog school yesterday that was the star of the class, closely followed by some sort of bucking donkey type animal when she wanted to go a different way to me at the end of the class - Love it! – the indignation in her face is priceless. She is also completely different to any other dog I've ever worked with.

Also having had retrievers in the past and now a lab X they are no angels either. Mine took about 3 years to settle from memory and even now the big one who is 5 will pop down to the garage and destroy one of their beds if the mood takes him

Give Tessa a big cuddle and get ready for tomorrow’s adventure

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

What you have just described Catia is a TM, plain and simple a TM and its not worth really putting any more energy in to worrying about it but more like just accepting that a TM is not, and never will be, like any other dog. Crating....Moo was crated until about 9 months, yes when we fist let her have her freedom (kitchen and hallway) with Bear there was still damage, including when we were also home, but it passed when she got to about a year old. Recall - it is very typical to have a TM with no recall, or indeed very little. Mooshi has about 95% I would say but I can tell you if she cant be bothered to come, she wont. Recall was something I worked hard on, endlessly and she was off lead from about 3 months of age so I could work on her recall, but I also know this is a rarity. And yes these guys are smart, super smart, blow your mind smart and sly too. If Bear has something that Mooshi wants she will think about it and she WILL find a way to get it. even if it means going to bark at the fence when nothing is there just to lure Bear away from his treat that she wants to she can go and steal it. Or for example if he is laying in the door way she will go behind the door and push it on him, and push it and push it until he gets up to move...then she takes his treat. I cant tell you the amount of times my jaw has dropped at Mooshi!! She is sly, conniving and a bitch but man oh man do I love her and wouldn't trade her for anything in the world!

 

[Catia]

I often tell Tessa she's the "goodest bad dog ever" LOL if that makes ANY sense-because when she is good, she nails it.
I'm just waking up & having coffee, at someone else's house. Took Tessa out for a romp in the woods & we stayed overnight.
I do take the baby gate with me & keep her in the room I am in. Fell asleep on the sofa.
She's been a complete angel, ignoring 3 agitated cats. She has a bone & some toys here & always knows exactly where it's kept, no matter how long it's been since we've been here.

For whatever reason, she behaves better outside of our house. So I know she knows. People who meet her always comment on what a 'good girl" she is.
Mostly because she sits well & is patient & will wait.

Times like this, it's hard to complain, but I've got to get to the biggest issue I am having right now, because it is disgusting & I've got to figure out a solution.
It's about Tessa eating her poo.
But it's more than this now, it is where her premeditation is obvious, & her planning, & her determination.

I have never experienced anything like this with a pooch, & I cannot believe the lengths she is capable of in her thought.

She had this issue from the beginning, it seemed to lessen, but is now back with a vengeance.

I have tried just about everything dietary, with the exception of the stuff that is sprinkled on her food that is sold at the vets-because the main ingredient is MSG in most of them, along with some spices & other fillers.
I may move to that method as a last resort, the Chinese food market sells MSG in bulk by the pound, it is cheap.

It is to the point where if I am not present with her at the exact time of poo, all is lost.
Sounds simple enough to solve, just scoop immediately, but it goes so much deeper than that & this is driving me berzerk.

Tessa is now actually holding her poo because she knows it will be immediately scooped.
She views poo as a high valued treat.

Tessa hides things to save for later.
She has her "safe places"--for instance, she will stash a bone/treat often times under my bed pillow, or remove sofa cushions, hide her toy & actually put the cushions back.


Tessa was doing this with her poos--outside in the yard.
She knows I scoop.
She had dug some holes in the back yard & was actually saving poo for later.

She doesn't stash the entire poo, just "select pieces", leaving most of the pile for me to scoop.
This is why it took me a bit of time to figure out this was how she was getting poo after I had scooped.

Tessa when younger began not liking poo in front of people, she liked to go behind something if someone is present.
She also doesn't like to poo outside of her yard. It has happened on walks-if she can no longer hold it, but it a rarity.


Since I have discovered & removed her 'stash' in the yard---things have gotten worse.

On the premeditating & planning-now that her stash is gone, & she knows it is gone, she holds it.
Waiting her out on this is difficult.
Obviously EVENTUALLY Tessa will poo.

But now She is not pooing "all the way".

She poos just what she absolutely can't hold & snaps it off---MID POO, because she knows I am going to scoop.

Took her no time to figure out how to do this, & took me a bit to figure this one out too--because who would EVER think a dog would go to this length.

I have no read yet of dogs doing this, been looking stuff up. Have found articles of children going to this extent.

This has turned 2-3 poos per day into a 6 poo per day pain in the ass. All puns intended.

Going out with Tessa this many times per day & trying to out wait her is getting increasingly difficult.

This is how determined she is. I imagine this has got to make her tummy & bowels uncomfortable.

Tessa has also recently developed putrid gas from these efforts to withhold poo.

I am concerned about health issues if this continues long term.

I am also very worried that she will backslide with being housebroken if this continues.
If she can figure out what she has already figured out & she is holding poo for so long, & only snapping off what she absolutely has to & is trying to hide it so much, I am worried she will start going in her crate again, while I am at work in order to eat it. It is only a matter of time before she figures that one out.

Understand, Tessa has never been scolded for pooing, so nothing like that.

Now I can type all of this out, but it is my experience that most people aren't believing the extent she is capable of going to with this issue.
I have explained the extent she is going to her walker who is pretty much in a state of disbelief of the actual extent Tessa is going to, but in 6 months, she has pooped for him less than 10 times.
I get a report every day.

So, what to do????
It has become a battle quickly, as soon as I discovered her "poo stash" & removed it.
6 poos per day & the effort is just crazy.
I have to go to work, so waiting her out in the mornings now is a serious pain.
Now sometimes she has to go in the middle of the night, due to withholding during the day & evenings.
This is making my life a living hell, affecting my sleep, because I cannot just let her outside to poo at 3am, I have to wake, put on shoes, go out into the freezing cold snow with her & scoop immediately.

it is REALLY hard not to get angry. I praise her when she does go. The gas is awful. I am worried this never will end.

I really need to find a product that WILL work to make the poo taste awful to her, but in order to do this, I think I have to let her eat some poo while I am trying products, & it will have to be used for a while, because a few yucky tasting poos are not going to deter her, it WILL take longer than that, because the pineapple was working somewhat, but not enough. I think that is why she was taking "select pieces"--it was the pieces without the pineapple.

I have switched her foods a few times, she was the absolute worst when she was on Orijen.
I have also considered switching to a food with crappy ingredients--like Pedigree or something, maybe the quality foods make poo taste too good.

There is a mental aspect to this now, I am taking away something she values & well, I just do not know what else to say--I'm at my wits end.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

how odd....the only thing I can think of that you may not have tried is feeding her a bit more. I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous but I watched a TV show here in the UK a couple of weeks ago about disgusting pet habits and one of the ladies on the show had a Jack Russell (I think that was the breed) and it would constantly eat its own poo. The woman was at her wits end and after figuring out the habit was not due to a lacking nutrient it was simply the dog was hungry, the vet recommended feeding more and the dog stopped eating its own poo!

 

[Catia]

Yes, I thought of her just being hungry too, & upped her food, which made it happen more.
Currently she is eating about 4.5-5 cups per day-a little more than what the bag has for a 100-125lb active pooch.

Weird thing-the more I feed her, the more she wants. I'm not sure what that is about. If I up the amount of food, she gets more 'scavengy' too-countersurfs like mad.
On orijen that behavior was the worst too. When she was on orijen LBP it was crazy--she was a bit of a nut--For an hour or 2 after she would eat-not only would she keep looking for food, or anything that smelled like food, she'd get into everything like crazy. On orijen adult, it settled down quite a bit, immediately, which is how I realized that behavior was food related.

There is definitely now a 'battle of the brains' going on, but I also wonder if there IS some dietary component that made/makes this situation worse.
Before I had mentioned her LOVE of eating grass--like a cow some days LOL
And I wonder if years of seclusion changed TM's dietary requirements a bit, I've read online some mountain dogs in other countries eat a lot of stuff like gruel, liquidy w/oatmeal etc.

Also, 2 things have occurred in the past week since I have been super vigilant about making sure Tessa doesn't eat poo:
Her stools are getting firmer like what a normal poo should be.
She has started to shed a bit.

Also, it seemed to be the firmer pieces of poo Tessa was stashing.

I need to figure out how to break the high value aspect of this poo eating & also figure out what's up with the dietary end.

Tessa is currently eating Canidae grain free duck.

One thing that hasn't been an ingredient in her food is corn, I've stayed away from foods that have it, but I'm thinking of trying a cheaper quality food because maybe she needs some fibrous filler?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Can you add some fruit to her diet? Apollo loves apples, and it seems to help curb his grass eating. Maybe something like that would do it?

Besides pineapple what hav eyou tried?

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Moo likes banana and cucumber as well...I think fruit is a great idea Ruth....maybe she needs more fibre?

 

[Doggyhelpplease]

I feed my little girl some fruits and vegs too(greens mostly, she hates banana though). Its a mix that I feed her with her tripe or meat/organ pieces that it can be mixed in etc (rest of the time she eats whole cut meat and nothing is mixed). I make it to mush and freeze it (6 months at a time) and than feed it to her mixed in (3 cubes (small ice cube ones) x 2 to 3 times a week). I follow a raw diet mostly like everyone elses but my breeder also adds a small amount of veg/fruit mix and wanted us to do the same.

Both co-breeders I got my pup from feed all there dogs raw and have been doing it for over 10 years. One of them has had their diet tested because she has some zoo lab connections and a magazines, I think asked her to publish articles and meal plans so they needed the stats etc, and her diet has been reviewed by "experts not vets" and they deemed it balanced.

So anyways it probably wouldn't hurt Tessa to add a little bit of fruits or veggies? I know many say your don't need anything besides raw meat (and I am sure most dogs probably live fine without vegs/fruits as well) but my girl's stool has almost always been great, I can count the times on 1 hand that she has had diarrhea and they were because she tried fish for the first time or something new.

She has never tried to eat it though. Will Tessa only eat her own?

Just a thought and to expand on what was said above

 

[Catia]

...I would like to brag about how smart my pooch is some days, then she eats a turd & it just all goes to shit.

This is disgusting & somewhat embarrassing.

Coporaphagia wasn't on my "To Do List"

Here is a quote from Wikipedia that is 'food' for thought:
"Both domesticated and wild mammals are known to consume feces. In the wild they either bury or eat waste to protect their trail from predators. In species of cats, the dominant feline openly displays feces.
*** In domesticated mammals, choosing not to offend the dominant owner, they eat or more prominently bury waste."***

As far as I know, she leaves other dogs poo alone, but that's with me. Sometimes she will sniff it heavily...But her lunchtime walker says she has tried & he has stopped her--I'd like to think he's just aware of the issue & is being hyper-vigilant when she sniffs--because she doesn't do it when we are walking--but maybe she's different with him.

Deer poo is another matter entirely, but I think that's most dogs, so that, while gross, doesn't bother me.

When I had her overnight with me at my friend's house, we went out in the morning & she poo'd & was NORMAL about it. She also poo'd while we were out hiking.
I think it has something to do with the yard. She likes to go in her yard. I have always praised her big time for pooing on walks,but it rarely happens.
Her walker can sometimes get her to poo during the afternoon walk ***IF AFTER the walk*** he takes her into the back yard & closes the curtains & pretends he is not there, or stands in a way where it appears to her he is not watching. So, I know it is not just ME.

Tonight during our late walk she poo'd at the park YAY!!!!!! But I also fed her a full extra cup of food & gave her a big raw soup marrow bone with some meat on it to help things along before hand.

For the past several months she does pee on walks regularly--before that she would hold it--no kidding. It started with a dog she likes, she left him pee-mail on his lawn. I was so relieved. Now she is getting more "adventurous with peeing in different places.

I don't know what the withholding is about-or her drive to do so--she came that way. Just like her hatred for brushes & tools. Tessa holds onto things-even stuff that occurred before I got her at 11.5 weeks. I find it crazy she still remembers stuff & is that stubborn--nothing bad has ever happened here. She's not been scolded for accidents when she was being housebroken. There was maybe 3 times I caught her in the act, or starting to pee, & scooped her up & ran for the yard. Only 1 poo accident happened in the house, I didn't catch it happening, so I just put her outside & cleaned it up.

She has a thought process going on here, it's pretty deep rooted & she's pretty determined about it. Now if I can just get that poo to taste like shit, I think I could break the habit.

On a side note, Tessa got a raw steak last week as a treat, she ate the steak, went poo maybe 15 min later & went straight for the poo.

There are all kinds of rollercoaster rides & surpirses that I am more than willing to accommodate my lifestyle to deal with, but shit breath isn't one of them.

 

[ruthcatrin]

yah, both my dogs think rabbit poo is DEVINE!!

 

[Catia]

--Any ideas?

New development past couple of days also, she's been a bit hesitant about eating her food.

I know she's been told "no!" now when she goes to eat poo, not just by me, & I hope she is not equating this to 'no you cannot eat'--
I'm just kinda racking my brain & I believe she is trying to figure things out too.

 

[ruthcatrin]

other than seeing if adding a fruit she likes to her diet might help....not really. I've never had a serious poop eater. Apollo briefly went through a phase of it, but we were extra OCD about picking up after him and not giving him access and that fixed it.

 

[Catia]

Ok, so definitely, there is some type of correlation going on here-
Tessa is eating, I even upped her food, 6 cups per day instead of 4-but she's not as interested in her food.
I put it in her bowl & she walks away.
Tessa is food driven-some foods, like Orijen, were like *crack*
This behavior is new, gets a little bit more disinterested at each feeding.
The only thing that has changed is poo eating.

She does eat, but doesn't dive in like she was a week ago.

multiple times this week 4 out of 5, she poo'd for her walker-mostly in the yard.
She also left the night poo alone today-I didn't scoop, it was snowing & sleeting & I just didn't want to go out EVERY time, but Tessa wanted in/out constantly, & I left her out for a bit by herself.

Keep in mind, it's just me, aside from the service I pay to walk her 1/2 way through the day while I am at work, so things get a bit more exhausting going out every time--especially when there is snow.




I think it is something dietary related with the poo, & has lead to reinforcement of the behavior.

She is searching for ever piece of grass she can find.

 

[HJL]

Hi, my trainer mentioned that feeding dogs spinach may help curb their poo eating. Hope this will help you... Best wishes!

 

[Catia]

update--Tessa is going after poo less, but she definitely also isn't eating her food with out some effort--been like this every meal--has even left her bowl with food in it after being covered in real gravy.
I've had to bribe her to eat--I fear she is suckering me!!!!

She is isn't she?

 

[ruthcatrin]

its very very possible lol

Though to be fair TMs aren't enthusiastic eaters.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Oh yeah she is suckering you....but you are not alone we all go through it. mooshi is currently on day 2 of not wanting to eat. I have given in and left the dog sitter and egg to scramble for her lunch to mix in with her kibble just to get something in to her....and oh no you cant mix it in with a fork you have to smush it in with your hands so every sing bit get covered . My dogs spoiled?? What ever gave you that idea?

 

[Catia]

shake it up in a plastic bag-that gets every bit covered--learned this from working in restaurants LOL

I've been through a slew of top of the line dog kibble. I am going to try something cheaper-maybe she's craving the filler.