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Cross over trainers

SG1

Well-Known Member
Everythingmastiff the other reason I don't make training videos besides the one you outlined is because you can't ask a video a question when you encounter a problem. My TM has taken my knowledge and skills to a whole new level. Because of this dog I still call my fried and mentor to ask him what to do about certain challenges he is presenting. I freely admit I'm not through learning and there's no video or book anywhere that will cover how to train dogs such as these.I think you miss the point of my post. I don't give a rat's ass (no anger intended just emphasis) whether or not someone discloses the technique I have a system that works. My point is, show that your method works with a dog like my TM and not a dog that won't give their system a true test period dot end of story. Many of the members here have serious dogs with serious temperaments. they deserve to have a video with some one utilizing a like minded dog.I will give you one more example and maybe you will stop touting people who can only talk about controlling a dog. In the tv series Dogs 101 on National Geographic They presented a female Dogo in that killed a mountain lion by herself in defense of the owners daughter. During the fight the dog lost an eye before killing the mountain lion. If this incident is true can you honestly say that this Dogo is operating on the same level as a Rott, Mal, GSD, or even yur Corso etc. The reason there isn't a lot of video of trainers/behaviorist working with these kinds of dogs is because THEY CAN'T. I'm going to push yu a little further, do the people you crow about even own a dog like this? If they don't ower conversation is over. Owning dogs like this under control for twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty-five days a year for he life of the dog or dogs and keep a lid on things is the true test IMOP of someones system.I don't ask them to do anything I don't do. It is a simple case of put up or shut up.I do have a life outside this forum and my dogs. I will not look at every web site to see if some nobody meets my criteria that's only important to me. I requested it before and I will request it again. If you are going to post a video or link give us somebody who handles dogs similar to ours. Once again thank you season and hector for stepping up.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
Marke, train the dog not to jump in the first place. The way you are suggesting by reinforcing the dog getting off would train the dog to jump up, as he has to jump up in order to get down.
i think any dog i've raised has taught themselves to look on the counter , they got rewarded when i forgot something up there ....... without a negative consequence i don't believe they'd not check the counter out every chance they got ........ the video i was trying to remember in my reply to your message was a guy named don sullivan , he is the antithesis to you ....... my belief is somewhere in the middle , but as far toward your direction as i could go ....... i taught a dog to run with me on a horse trail while leashed to my bike , the speeds would be between 10-15 mph , it was a painful enough learning process , i couldn't imagine doing it without her knowing the word no .......
 
SG1 you have a point. I doubt they do own or work with Superior Guardians on a regular basis. I think the other reason they don't show videos of certain things is because it's not pretty. They could receive hate mail for some of the techniques used. Case in point. A trainer from canada recently did a video on the use of a "bonker" as a correction. She literally received threats to her person and to her family. I had no issue with what she did. In fact I have a bonker in my box of tools that rarely gets used but there were a few occasions I deemed it an appropriate tool. I try to link videos of varying types of trainers. If a trainer relies on one strict system, developed without a scientific basis, closed minded and unwilling to continuously learn, then that trainer is not someone I would recommend, link to, discuss, or pay for any type of service. I believe any serious trainer would make videos and try to teach what they could and if someone had a question that wasn't answered in the video the "reputable" trainer would be available for questions and/or consultation. Everyone has their own way of doing things in every aspect of life. Training dogs is no different. To each their own. I can only speak from my personal experiences, my own opinions, and share what I think to be good or bad videos and usually do so to get opinions of what others think. I'm not trying to devalue you as a trainer simply because you don't provide free content or specific explanation of your method. I'm simply stating that trainers that do so most likely are getting more clients and recognition as being reputable trainers. I'm a believer that anything you put out for free will only make you more money in the long run. It can only help you build a positive reputation. Of course, there will always be haters. But even having haters is a good thing. It just means people are seeing you out there doing what you do. I saw the dogs 101 episode you are referring to. Thank god for that dogo he saved the little girls life.
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
I think it is unfair to discount a training method if you have not even tried it. Who cares what breed the dog in question is? Yes, some dogs are a bit harder, hyper, etc but when it comes down to it I do believe they learn the same way. Why so much emphasis on the breed? I have met some pretty fierce non-SG dogs. In fact a large boxer that we had once pinned to the floor one of my sisters male friends when he entered our home unannounced (he was about 23). Once my sister stopped the blow dryer she heard the growling and yells for help. Found the dog literally standing on the guys chest holding him with teeth showing. He was a boxer but extremely territorial. I remember seeing a news article of a golden retriever fighting off an intruder. I can only think of 1 pit that I would consider to be a a good guard dog. My sisters pit would be absolutely useless if someone broke into her home. What does a dogs guarding instinct have to do with their trainability????
 

Glasgowdogtrainer

Well-Known Member
Superior guardian; a label made up by someone much like the term "red zone" dog in order to justify certain training methods. Neither are an actual thing, only excuses. Positive reinforcement training works on all animals if done properly. All. Not just the "easy" ones whatever they are. Positve reinforcment training isn't a "system", it's one element of the laws of learning. Scientific laws are lawful, that's what makes them laws. They have been tried and tested, and to date have not been misproven. When they have, I'll accept other things. Other scientific laws - evolution (not meanig to be provocative), relativity, thermodynamics, gravity to mention a few. Gravitiy doens't care whether you accept it or not, it's still lawful as are the laws of learning.I've trained several individual animals from the breeds you label as "superior guardians", CAO, several Cane Corso, several Neapolitan mastiff. R+ trainingworks on all of them. It's pretty redundant whether people believe you can do it or not. Everyone who owns any dog will have trained at least one behaviour, whether deliberately or not using R+.
 
Superior guardian; a label made up by someone much like the term "red zone" dog in order to justify certain training methods. Neither are an actual thing, only excuses. Positive reinforcement training works on all animals if done properly. All. Not just the "easy" ones whatever they are. Positve reinforcment training isn't a "system", it's one element of the laws of learning. Scientific laws are lawful, that's what makes them laws. They have been tried and tested, and to date have not been misproven. When they have, I'll accept other things. Other scientific laws - evolution (not meanig to be provocative), relativity, thermodynamics, gravity to mention a few. Gravitiy doens't care whether you accept it or not, it's still lawful as are the laws of learning.I've trained several individual animals from the breeds you label as "superior guardians", CAO, several Cane Corso, several Neapolitan mastiff. R+ trainingworks on all of them. It's pretty redundant whether people believe you can do it or not. Everyone who owns any dog will have trained at least one behaviour, whether deliberately or not using R+.
Here here! Well said!
 

SG1

Well-Known Member
Everythingmastiff I agree with you 100% on correction statement, some people are entirely too sensitive. I believe that's one of the reason the positive method, system or what ever you want to call it came about in all of it's variations. I have no criticism of people who use corrections, it's the ones that tout the positive only way. Just like you I am a science buff, so much so that I lean towards the Big Bang theory(BBT) as oppose to the God explanation(GE). I thoroughly enjoyed the a series called The Cosmos and was quite disappointed when the host declined to continue hosting. The (BBT) was logically and methodical thought out and introduced to other scientist around the world for there critique before it was accepted. The Cosmos researchers found historical facts before airing the show. I only want them to them to do the same, prove it in the field under a variety of conditions. Is that too much to ask?Karenj it is always a pleasure to bump head with you, now were do I begin? I don't discout anybody's why of training and I don't think you will find any post from me that does it. I don't mind being accused of anything just make sure I'm good for it. I thought I gave a good example as to why the breed makes a difference with the Dogo example. I am no Walt Whitman so I don't think I can do any better than I've already have. No wait a minute I just thought of some thing that might help.Many of the high caliber dogs I mentioned have a very independent mentality and need little if any direction from humans to do heir jobs. With a fighting/ hunting dog like the Tosa or the dogo there is no human in the cage helping or directing the fight. They have to figure out how to defeat their opponent by themselves. The LSGD is not sitting by a warm cozie camp fire with his master. He or she is out in the field rain or shine, a hundred degree summer or zero degree winter. I am willing to bet that there was a time when the dog had to hunt his own food while protecting. This type of independence and determination translates into a dog that may not want to follow orders. Then what do you do? The lesser dog don't have this level of independence and determination because their jobs din't require it. this is why Rots GSD and Boxers make good police dogs or a boarde collie a good obstetrical course dog these jobs /activities require a great deal of human involvement.Relative to the Golden Retriever and Boxer comment. I would like to say that the gene or what ever it is that makes one breed of dog more aggressive and determined than another is common in all dogs. Just to a more or lesser degree for some than others. When dog fighter wanted to create a great fighting dog they did not use a boxer or Golden Retriever. There is a difference. There is Boxer in the Dogo but not to increase his will to fight but to temper it. The Great Dane was not used for it's determination but to give the Dogo longer legs. There is a difference. I agree the Boxer is not a punk but he can't do what what the Dog I described can do.I would be impressed if the Boxer just engaged the mountain let alone win the fight. There is a difference. I hank you for your support of how easy the pit bull is. I have to disagree with the part about the dog not making a good guard dog. The internet is full of videos and articles of them attacking people and other animals. Try this search: PIT BULL ATTACKS. After your research get back to me and let me know if you still think that way.Now for you Glasgowdogtrainer, yes Superior Guardians and Red Zone are made up words. Just like rock, car, bird, cat or dog and every other word in any language. We have to name the things we see hear do or invent so people will know what we are talking about. I fail to see how it is an excuse. I have seen your picture with the NEO and DDB and I respect you for taking on that challenge I will even take you at your word on the CO. But working with a handful of dogs is not enough, people can own these types of dogs with out a problem in some cases. I demonstrate that with the example of the woman with the two pit bulls and so did karennj when she referenced her sister. Your word is not good enough for me to change my mind no matter how much pseudo science you babble about. If it doesn't meet my personal criteria I won't risk getting sent to the hospital.
 
In my mind your emphasis on breed is basically a marketing ploy. Aimed at those that have fear of these large, powerful, willful breeds, or those that simply don't know that the dog as a species all learn in a very specific manner (proven by science). Furthermore it appears to me that the emphasis, and invention of the key term "Superior Guardian" is to imply that your "system" is superior to others and developed specifically around the notion that these "SG" breeds require a proprietary way of handling and training. That couldn't be further from the truth. From a marketing standpoint, Bravo./\/\/\ I just want to quote a few things you've stated on your website and in this thread. "We usually train pups no older than 16 weeks however; we will evaluate the dog and circumstances in order to determine if your situation can be an exception to our rules." "The reason there isn't a lot of video of trainers/behaviorist working with these kinds of dogs is because THEY CAN'T." "Can I see the evidence instead of taking someone's word for it? Is this too much to ask for?" "I posted my work on this forum, Youtube and my web site for constructive criticism can the others do the same if they believe so strongly in there methods?""Remember anybody can say anything on the internet or this forum without proof, let's make them back up what they say.""I can not and will not disregard someone method of training.""I have no criticism of people who use corrections, it's the ones that tout the positive only way.""The only thing I ask if you are going to make the statements that glassgowdogtrainner about his systems over other is show that it works with a video of the dog obeying in difficult situations like the ones I described the above post." /\/\/\/\ Here's a link to his youtube channel where he shows his work and explains his training philosophy... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmC96B2D6EgRDbxtryMqY7Q/\/\/\/\ Here is a link to his website...https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmC96B2D6EgRDbxtryMqY7Q/\/\/\/\/\ The only proof I've seen from you is that your personal dogs play well with each other and are well behaved. That you can raise a puppy to behave which is vastly easier to do than to train one that has already developed behavioral issues. Don't take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to attack you or make you look bad. I'm just trying to keep you honest and offer a little constructive criticism.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
personally I've found mastiffs to be naturally more submissive than most breeds ......... the mastiffs I've had have been neopolitan mastiffs , bullmastiffs and ddb ......... some of them have been amazingly tough dogs , but temperamentally soft ...... even the harder tempered ones really haven't compared in the difficulty/frustration of training some of the hounds I've had . the mastiffs were without exception much tougher dogs , but still way more submissive and soft ......... i'd actually think they would be more receptive to a method like glascowdogtrainer's than some of the harder , hyper , drivier mals , ds and gsd I've seen ....... personally i'd consider some of them to be "supreme guardians" ................jmo
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
I already know pits can bite. Just like any other breed. Yes, looking at the statistics they do make up a high number of major bites but is that because the natural guardy behavior of that breed or the ridiculous owners you typically get with pit? I personally think it has more to do with the owners and they way they are raising that breed. I know a lot of pits. I am a vet tech and see them in our practice all the time as we have a high number of them in this area. I also petsit more than a few. Every single one of them has just been a great dog. Not any more territorial than the shepherds I see. In fact, I would take a pit over a shepherd or shar pei at work any day. I can't speak to the dogo or the fila because I hardly see them as they are not common in this area. I do however have lots of experience with pits. In regards to the comment about training. You said you don't discount anyone's way of training but you do. You basically said this trainer is full of BS because she does not have videos of her doing it with a "SG". I remember you calling out Glassgow for posting a video showing how he uses classical conditioning and positive reinforcement to help with dog aggression but because the dog was a Dane it was a joke. So my question is, have you tried counter conditioning with any of your SG dogs? Have you tried desensitization to fix any issues? You seem to be pretty confident that these tools cannot be used with a SG but have you tried it? Just curious if you speak from actual experience or you just assume it wont work.I wouldn't say that we butt heads because that would imply that we have a disagreement/difference of opinion. I have no idea what your opinion actually is because you are not clear on how you train. You frequently have told people to take control or be a leader but give no information on how to do it. I have asked you straight out how you would deal with situations or "be a leader" but you told me it is for paying clients only. Honestly, you have lots of opinions on "positive" training and the capabilities of glassgow however you have provided no information on how you train your own dogs. I think a good amount of the members here can post videos of their dogs alone in the home with high value stuff around. It does not tell us anything about the way the person trains. For all I know we may actually train in a similar manner...
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
grrrrrr, all my paragraph breaks are gone.I also wanted to mention that you should probably add the great Pyrenees to your list of SG. They are highly independent, given the job of guarding livestock/property with no one telling them what to do or how to do it.
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
I thought these were interesting - counter conditioning - [video=youtube;AHRWQUv7JYE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPyaMGtAZiccounter"]Desensitizing/counter-conditioning fearful dog at veterinary hospital - YouTube[/url] conditioning - Counter conditioning at Cranky Canine class Nov 2013. The Toronto Centre for Canine Education. - YouTube can't believe victoria has a video with a serious dog - Its Me or the Dog- Growling at Guests | Indoor Tips - YouTube shaping a pit - Pit Bull, Evan, Learns To Like Treadmilling - YouTube behavior modification - Luna - Leash biting - YouTube when someone walks by the house and the other dogs bark the dogo's keep focused on the lady - [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHRWQUv7JYE[/video]
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
Ugh, this site is driving me nuts! Anyway if you can make any sense of that mess, there are some videos of people using counter condition, desensitization, and free shaping for training and behavior modification. I believe these are all dogs you consider to be SG.
 
personally I've found mastiffs to be naturally more submissive than most breeds ......... the mastiffs I've had have been neopolitan mastiffs , bullmastiffs and ddb ......... some of them have been amazingly tough dogs , but temperamentally soft ...... even the harder tempered ones really haven't compared in the difficulty/frustration of training some of the hounds I've had . the mastiffs were without exception much tougher dogs , but still way more submissive and soft ......... i'd actually think they would be more receptive to a method like glascowdogtrainer's than some of the harder , hyper , drivier mals , ds and gsd I've seen ....... personally i'd consider some of them to be "supreme guardians" ................jmo
They are known for having great temperaments, that's why I got them. Mine are fairly submissive but that is also how I've raised them. I don't allow shenanigans. If you tried to let yourself in my neighbor's yard? You'd find out how SG a Mastiff can be ;). I witnessed his female Martha(one of his 4) rip someone off a motorcycle he was trying to steal. By the time we got to them his arm was mangled both bones broken and his intestines were hanging out of his belly thanks to one of the others. I've personally owned, trained, and raised over 100 dogs. Including Blue Heelers that were all working dogs, we also bred them. GSD's, I've adopted numerous retired police dogs, my father being a retired detective and works in the security industry with clients like Johnny Depp (when he's at the home he owns in NM, wreaks like pot inside his house lol). I've rescued, found, or otherwise acquired pits, rotts, and numerous mutts and x breeds. There were times when I would have in my possession up to 7 dogs at a time. This I've done because I enjoyed it and have a love for dogs. Any dog. Whether they earned their keep or ate for free or not. I've had hard dogs, easy dogs, and downright nasty son-of-a-bitch dogs. I didn't even know there was such a huge industry until around 10 years ago when I was working with race horses and received a rat terrier from my boss as a bonus and said it's parents were show dogs. I asked him WTF is a show dog? Talk about drivey, high energy, and because I encouraged it, she was viscous. You couldn't walk up to my truck if I had the window down to shake my hand cause Mijita would attack your ass. If I told her to bite a shovel in the ground she would do it, or a person, a cat, anything. Mijita was the first dog I ever used a leash on and that was after she was already 6 years old and had considerably calmed down. This whole concept of "heel" and walking on a loose leash is only something I've learned about in the past few years. Hank my fawn EM is the first dog that I used a leash on from the day we brought him home at 8 weeks. He will be 3 on 11/11/15. I didn't know what the fuck P+ or R+ or negative reinforcement was. That's not how I learned. I learned through watching and doing what my step-dad did. I didn't know that a correction is referred to as an aversive. I just know that my grandfather said, "This is how you teach a dog to ____." There was never a point in my life when I didn't own a dog. I've never had or found a dog I couldn't make behave in an acceptable manner. I've been bitten more times than I can count. I've been literally attacked on a few occasions when I was younger and didn't know any better. This whole "science based dog training" idea is pretty much brand new to me. Here lately I've just been working on trying to get "up to speed" or "up to date" with what people are using in the industry. Mostly because I want to get into the industry. People can read books and go through case studies all they want. I've lived the shit. Many of the methods I've learned and used in the past I'm learning more and more aren't necessarily the best way to do things or even accepted as ethical by today's standards. Glasgow talks about cognitive dissonance. After I looked it up in the dictionary, I realized it was a brand new idea to me . It also is applicable to the way I think about dog training now. I've been learning so many new things in such a short time I often have conflicting thoughts on what dog training actually is all about now lol. I have an impulse to go out and buy a clicker for god's sake lol.1 year ago if you told me I had to click something the exact moment my dog's ass touched the floor I'd have called you a moron. I've been going over material on how to "shape behaviors" using a clicker. Truly fascinating stuff. I'm going to make an attempt to attend Clicker Expo in Reno, NV in Jan. All my spare time I've been spending learning everything I can. It's truly amazing how far things have come in the past 30 years as far as methodology goes. I'm like a sponge. Just soaking it up. Will I start using positive only methods? Prob not anytime soon. I'm to used to saying "nope" as a reaction to my dog breaking a sit/stay. But I also don't see anything wrong with that type of a correction. I bought a prong collar to learn how it works and to use on my own dogs because I want to form my own opinions of the tools available. Does that mean I'm going to allow my dog to walk past me while I turn around and jerk the hell out of the lead? NOPE. IMO that's straight uncalled for. Before I even put it on my dog I put it on me and had my wife jerk me around a little bit. It was pretty hot but that's a whole other topic =P Walls of text abound. Sorry for the ramble lol.
 
Have to post one video per post Karrenj or it won't come out right. Let me try to help. I think the first one is this?[video=youtube;AHRWQUv7JYE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHRWQUv7JYE[/video]
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
Ugh, this site is driving me nuts! Anyway if you can make any sense of that mess, there are some videos of people using counter condition, desensitization, and free shaping for training and behavior modification. I believe these are all dogs you consider to be SG.
Karen, you gotta post them one post at a time lol.