Cross over trainers

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

A great post from Denise Fenzi yesterday. If you don't know who she is, look her up. Please read and digest before some of the usual reactionary replies."Today's Full Disclosure Statement:I am a cross-over trainer. That means I've done a lot of things to dogs that I would not do today, and I've seen a good deal more on top of that.I know the difference between training methods. I am well aware of how to apply a correction, how to "correctly" use an e-collar, and I know perfectly well how internal resistance and cognitive dissonance plays out when you are being confronted with choices about change and methodology. I've been through it, and I'm a formidable opponent when I think you're stupid. I thought +r trainers were stupid.I am not sorry for my history, because it allows me a degree of understanding that I could not have had any other way. I am, however, sorry to the individual dogs (and people) that I now believe I misunderstood and mistreated.I started training with Koehler methods about 35 years ago, started to soften about 25 years ago, made a conscious choice to soften more about 20 years, stopped using force with my own dogs about 12 years ago, stopped using force with other people's dogs about 7 years ago, and changed my entire philosophy (which goes well beyond techniques) about five years ago. About a year ago I took it even further, but that's a story for the future as it hasn't played out yet. Evolution happens. Nothing wrong with that!If you feel the need to share this with others, I say run with it! If you need to ask me questions, then ask me. I have never been private about this but apparently it comes as a surprise to some people. So there it is.End of Full Disclosure Statement."

 

[sjdavenport]

Love Denise. She definitely has a lot of interesting things to say. I'm currently in my fourth online class through the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy.

 

[karennj]

I can't see a link on my phone. Is there a link?

 

[Hector]

I can't see a link on my phone. Is there a link?

No, I don't think there is a link.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

No link. But this is first thing I found Denise Fenzi | a professional dog trainer specializing in relationship-building in competitive dog sport teams Thanks for the suggested reading material! Bookmarked.

 

[sjdavenport]

No link, I believe that quote was just from her facebook page.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Hmm? For me, on my post, there is a clickable link.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

It's basically HERNAME.COM

 

[SG1]

Yes Glasgowdogtrainner I will react to BS. This is yet again another post/link to someone claiming to have a world of experience, who has been there and done that and can't prove a thing. The first thing I see on her web site is a Malinois, this dog is nothing more than a hyper active German Shepard. If you are going to tout someones abilities and or methods use someone who has trained serious Superior Guardian dogs with there methods and not regular dog like what ever Burrito in her videos is. Out of the thousands of dogs she claims to have trained she can't put one Tosa in a video, not one Dogo, not one Tibetan Mastiff to show her system works. Your post should be on a Malinois or any non-serious dog forum and not here.I read your back and forth post with mark in the thread Some dogs need harsh training. If your system works as well as you say post your work with a real serious dog and not ride someone else's jockstrap who can do any more than you can. Don't just talk abut it, be about it. Please everyone I want this to be constructive criticism, I want to push trainers and non trainers to the next level of dog control and IMOP what I see posted is not it.Remember anybody can say anything on the internet or this forum without proof, let's make them back up what they say.

 

[karennj]

There are people on this forum with what you consider to be Superior Guardians who use the newer training methods with great success. It seems that those stories seem to get ignored or discarded and some folks still think you cannot possibly train or fix behavior issues without using force.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Nice, constructive, intelligent comment Sg, thanks for your contibution.

 

[cinnamon roll]

So when my rescued rottweiler from a junkyard, went for me should I of offered her a cookie as she bared her teeth growling and lunged at me? FYI in my house for a month, no leash.

Just like life it's not all rainbows
and gum drops.

 

[cinnamon roll]

There is a time when positive reinforcement is needed and times that harsher punishment is needed.

AND I'M NOT SAYING ABUSE YOUR DOG.

 

[karennj]

I don't think anyone would suggest trying to give a cookie to a dog that is trying to attack you...

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

No no NO. You give the cookie when he STOPS attacking to reward the good behavior of releasing your face lol. I can't say I'm a crossover trainer. I would say I'm an emotional evolutionary trainer. I tend to pick and choose what works for me, for the dog, for the situation, and what I feel is correct. I don't think that any one way is "the best". I rely a lot on my instincts and intuition. I didn't go to all kinds of seminars and webinars or read loads of books(some yes). I don't write as if I looked every other word up in a thesaurus. I'm not opposed to new methods and have been trying to really broaden my spectrum of influence. I like to think everything you learn, whether you implement it into your training or not, is another tool in the tool box. Can you use a 13mm wrench instead of a 1/2"? Sure. Is it going to work? Yes, most of the time. You still run the risk of rounding the shoulders on the nut and ruining it too. I use the tools that feel like they fit right. Just like every dog has a very unique personality. So to should you be flexible in your training.

 

[SG1]

I do believe other methods can work with ower dogs. I had a female dogo that required very few corrections. She would have worked well with methods discussed here and would attack man or beast in a heart beat if provoked. No disrespect intended cinnamon rolll but the is not in the same league as many of the dogs on this forum. Lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. The problem is SGs aren't always born that way. With that in mind does the system work when the dog wants to eat the handler. The woman highlighted on this thread can't or won't show it. I want to see the people who claim to have a.new, kinder and gentler way prove it with a dog lime the TM in seasons post of Sean. Can I see the evidence instead of taking someone's word for it? Is this too much to ask for? Does their system keep unaltered dogs of the same sex from fighting while the owner is home or away? Does the system work on leash, off leash, amidst distractions? Again I ask is proof too much to ask for?I posted my work on this forum, Youtube and my web site for constructive criticism can the others do the same if they believe so strongly in there methods? I realize my definition of dog control is vastly different from most people and that the above example may be out of reach of most if not all trainers. If this is the case let's make these trainers define what they mean when they say their method works.

 

[SG1]

Sorry for the long paragraph. I tried to separate them but it apparently didn't take.

 

[marke]

a dog that goes on the counter , when you see him you tell him down , he gets down and you reward him ........ when your not around he goes on the counter ........ you get a couple of those electric mats and put them on the counter , he learns it's unpleasant to go on the counter , he gets shocked ...... eventually you remove the mat but he continues to see the counter as an unpleasant place to go , and by not going on the counter science has shown he is psychologically rewarded by not getting shocked , so he is continually rewarded for not going on the counter , which imo is why that type of correction can elicit such reliable behavior so quickly .....

 

[cinnamon roll]

Oh I know exactly what you mean, but that being said she was one of the hardest dogs ever. You can't judge a dog by its breed. Ie kris has ruger that is more like a fila than a em. I could go on and on.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Marke, train the dog not to jump in the first place. The way you are suggesting by reinforcing the dog getting off would train the dog to jump up, as he has to jump up in order to get down.