Cesar Millan's training techniques?

[Boxergirl]

I think the kick to the golden was hard, abusive and completely unnecessary. Would you kick your child in the gut, hard enough for it to create a loud thud just because your child was overly excited? They are studying dogs brains and the way they learn and have found they are unlike other animals and actually learn things the same way a 2yr old would.

I had the perception that "positive" trainers were 100% positive and did not use one because of my perception. I figured, while my dog is biting my child do I really want to be trying to shove treats in his mouth? Once my Dane got to the point that I could not trust him with my children at all I called the nearest trainer who is certified and only uses "positive methods". What I found is yes, she uses treats for training but when he is misbehaving she is firm and does not stand for bad behavior. It was completely the opposite of what I thought it would be. I really don't consider her to be all positive. She is balanced. She is firm when needed and uses positive methods instead of force to train. I look at training completely different now. In the case of the goldens there are many other methods that could have been used that would not instill fear in the dogs or require kicking them into a calm state. The resource guarding could have used desensitizing instead of pushing the dog over its breaking point giving it no other choice but to bite. Yes, the other methods would have taken longer and made for much more boring TV but they would have yielded the same results in the end without use of force. There are a million ways to train something but I feel going the path of least resistance with the minimal negative effect on the dog is the best choice....but that is just my opinion. A leader gets respect because they deserve it not because they force it. A leader creates confidence not fear.

This. Absolutely this.

 

[esaudio]

Here is the whole picture, not just 3 minutes out of context
[video=youtube;ACqwsUUFK6I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACqwsUUFK6I[/video]

Focus on the facts, as described by owner:
Aggressive dog that bites owners
3 *THREE trainers prior to Cesar
Aggressive when it comes to food, to the point that they have to place the food outside, away from everyone and then let her go eat. THey are afraid their little toddler may try to get her food and be attacked.

 

[esaudio]

[video=youtube;qpNCcgjaV20]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpNCcgjaV20[/video]

 

[Bailey's Mom]

Thank you for providing the the full clips. I remember seeing the original showing. I felt bad for the dog, and I wondered how she suddenly became so fixated on food. Even though they never examined the owner's roles, I feel the genesis of the problem was there, the anxiety that they created around the feeding ritual. No evidence was lead on that, however, problems don't evolve in a vacuum, there is always something someone isn't owning up to....the smoking gun.

I have no problem with his approach or even that he erred and was injured. I think he made the appropriate call in connection to such a food reactive dog with this young family.

AND, even though I respect and would normally defer to the opinions - heated opinions - of my fellow Mastiff owners, I feel that CM has been unfairly vilified. All things factored in: Hollywood!, stage hands holding dogs off screen to evoke the negative behaviour that the owner's are complaining about, Hybrids that aren't hybrids, but huskies with bad attitudes that (given the chance) would have ripped him a new one, and THIS described as "choking or hanging"... Factually, don't see it. I believe he is a good person, training with the gift he has. He is less anthropomorphic than the people who claim he's vicious, people, I can only assume that think you can "nice the dog into being a co-operative family member." Power/fear doesn't respond to that, it responds to clear, unambiguous guidance and CLEAR CHAIN of COMMAND.

This is MHO, but then again, I watched him probably more than most of you. The show has faults, you have to use it as mildly relevant information, not the God Awful Truth. Most of us will never own such damaged animals, Thank God. Most of us will just muddle through, loving our dogs - Who Will Forgive Us - and we'll be just fine. Not perfect with some mystical Dog Whisperer Control...just Good Pet Owners.

 

[karennj]

Is the dog really rehabilitated if it cannot stay with it's family? Don't get me wrong, I am very thankful that he is able to take dogs that he cannot fix and keep them at his center. I have seen him do this more than once. So really, yes he is saving the dog from being put down but he has not fixed the issue as the family cannot keep their dog in the end. I still believe desensitizing would be more appropriate in this situation as your not changing the way the dog feels about the approaching hand. Yea, maybe you can get the dog to stop snapping but the tension and fear are still there just being suppressed. Some of the things he teaches really are helpful but I do have an issue with his force and methods at times. The Dogo vid that was posted was a great example of him doing a great job "training" the owners. I think he is a great human rehabilitator!

 

[Bailey's Mom]

The problem, reduced to it's final calculation is this:. Can you keep a dog who has this underlying food aggression, desensitized (somewhat)(never completely, I would argue) with a toddler. The math is, NO. Call it what you like, the chance, ANY CHANCE, whatsoever, is unendurable. Rehabilitation might be the fairy tale ending, but I'll stick with common sense. CM cannot rehabilitate the toddler:. The Danger Would Persist And Likely Would Be Expressed As The Toddler Learns And Grows In The World. Not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when."

And, yes, CM is a great rehabilitator of ADULTS.

 

[esaudio]

In the clip that is in Spanish, in which Cesar is with that dog, he says that after seeing the attack, the family didnt want to keep the dog any more for fear she may hurt their kid. He says that most families do the same when they see their own dog attack them or attack someone. And then you see the dog playing with CM. He decided to keep her until she could be adopted.

 

[Boxergirl]

In the clip that is in Spanish, in which Cesar is with that dog, he says that after seeing the attack, the family didnt want to keep the dog any more for fear she may hurt their kid. He says that most families do the same when they see their own dog attack them or attack someone. And then you see the dog playing with CM. He decided to keep her until she could be adopted.

I haven't seen anyone saying that Holly should have remained with the family. The child's safety comes first. Always. But that doesn't have anything to do with the techniques Cesar used in these videos. Let's imagine that one of our members posted about Bongo, their food aggressive dog, and showed a video of how they were training Bongo. They call Bongo to the food dish. Tell him it's okay to eat and then crouch down and slap his head away from the food. Would we tell them that was a job well done? Or would we ask what the hell they were thinking? Try watching the videos with the sound off. Cesar stalks Holly in a crouched and threatening manner. His entire body language is threatening. He gives her hard stares while maintaining that threatening stance. She gives many signals showing that she's uncomfortable. Lip licking. Head turning. Retreating. Don't listen to what he's saying. Watch it with the sound off and look at how threatening his entire manner is. Watch Holly's body language. That bite could have been completely avoided. I'm not saying that Holly doesn't have issues, but in that particular instance he forced her to bite him. Because it made for good television. In that portion of the video, where he's being all ninja-like after making his shhht sound and clawing toward her face while she was eating (great way to make a dog not guard their food, btw) ... well, how is that normal human movement? How is that not disturbing and threatening. That's some scary stuff. My entire point is that he forced Holly to bite him. Look at her body language and look at his. Just look. Pretend that this was our member training Bongo. Would we tell them they did a good job? I don't think we would.

 

[esaudio]

I haven't seen anyone saying that Holly should have remained with the family. The child's safety comes first. Always. But that doesn't have anything to do with the techniques Cesar used in these videos. Let's imagine that one of our members posted about Bongo, their food aggressive dog, and showed a video of how they were training Bongo. They call Bongo to the food dish. Tell him it's okay to eat and then crouch down and slap his head away from the food. Would we tell them that was a job well done? Or would we ask what the hell they were thinking? Try watching the videos with the sound off. Cesar stalks Holly in a crouched and threatening manner. His entire body language is threatening. He gives her hard stares while maintaining that threatening stance. She gives many signals showing that she's uncomfortable. Lip licking. Head turning. Retreating. Don't listen to what he's saying. Watch it with the sound off and look at how threatening his entire manner is. Watch Holly's body language. That bite could have been completely avoided. I'm not saying that Holly doesn't have issues, but in that particular instance he forced her to bite him. Because it made for good television. In that portion of the video, where he's being all ninja-like after making his shhht sound and clawing toward her face while she was eating (great way to make a dog not guard their food, btw) ... well, how is that normal human movement? How is that not disturbing and threatening. That's some scary stuff. My entire point is that he forced Holly to bite him. Look at her body language and look at his. Just look. Pretend that this was our member training Bongo. Would we tell them they did a good job? I don't think we would.

According to the owners, she showed aggression when eating to the point that they had to feed her separately or else they would be bitten. They wanted to train her to accept people touching her or her food while eating, considering they have a little child. That is why they kept on putting that hand while she was eating. It seems to me all of that was to show the dog that whenever a human claimed her food, she had to surrender. It may seem a bit unfair and all, but imagine the dog eating and the kid going and trying to get her food. It was an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Mag-Pie]

There are a million ways to train something but I feel going the path of least resistance with the minimal negative effect on the dog is the best choice....but that is just my opinion. A leader gets respect because they deserve it not because they force it. A leader creates confidence not fear.

100% Agree. ^^^

 

[esaudio]

100% Agree. ^^^

Yes, BUT he got results where 3 other trainers had failed. Besides, with all the time in the world you can use other approaches as well. However, who could afford all the time in the world when there is a child that can get hurt in the process? Who says CM is a leader that instills fear? He instills respect from the dog to the owner, which is not the same. And he trains people in the process. Let-s call a spade a spade. You are not training kids that could be traumatized by something like this. A dog is a dog. We love them to death but it is not the same as training a child. So even if some of his methods may seem rough, they work and they work FAST. These people needs answers for yesterday. So time is of essence.

 

[Hector]

I never had a problem with CM until I ended up with a problem dog myself. I respect CM for his work, but use it on the wrong dog and you can end up a dead person. I understand he's not telling people "this is how you do it", but it's a tv show and people are going to want to be the next CM.

 

[karennj]

Yes, BUT he got results where 3 other trainers had failed. Besides, with all the time in the world you can use other approaches as well. However, who could afford all the time in the world when there is a child that can get hurt in the process? Who says CM is a leader that instills fear? He instills respect from the dog to the owner, which is not the same.

1. Holly became MORE aggressive after his encounter with her in the home. It took him awhile to get her to the point we see at the end of the clip but she still has resource guarding issues they are just suppressed. So, it is not a quick fix with his method either.

2. Watch the video I posted of the Goldens. Watch their body language and how they act around Cesar. They are absolutely uncomfortable with him and it is a fear response not a respect response.

Yes, some things he does very well but some things he does can ruin a dog. I wish people would listen to his advice about being calm, assertive, giving dog plenty of exercise, etc and less about rolling the dog over and kicking them in the gut.

 

[goatnipples2002]

I've always treated my dogs exactly like my kids. If they do good they get the world, but if they tear shit up...thats that ass. After the "teenage" years your fine if raised with respect.

 

[esaudio]

1. Holly became MORE aggressive after his encounter with her in the home. It took him awhile to get her to the point we see at the end of the clip but she still has resource guarding issues they are just suppressed. So, it is not a quick fix with his method either.

2. Watch the video I posted of the Goldens. Watch their body language and how they act around Cesar. They are absolutely uncomfortable with him and it is a fear response not a respect response.

Yes, some things he does very well but some things he does can ruin a dog. I wish people would listen to his advice about being calm, assertive, giving dog plenty of exercise, etc and less about rolling the dog over and kicking them in the gut.

1. More aggressive after she worked with him? Where did you get that idea? The owners could not feed her. They had to leave the food outside and she would have to go get it when they were not around. It-s all in the video. And in the 2nd video you can see that she is having a blast and licking him like crazy. I understand that it did not happen overnight though, but it did work for her.

2. Are you talking about the video describing the wrong things he did with Holly? Or any other I may have missed? In this particular case he pushed her a lot about the food as the owners said that was her problem. I know he then went Ninja on her to claim the food and show her who the boss was.

Mind you, I am no expert in dog training, just that I have watched lots of his shows and I am never short of amazed to see what he achieves with these animals that according to their owners even other trainers told them they had to be put down.
I can understand that there are different schools of thought and training and that others prefer positive reinforcement as opposed to this pack leader mentality he has. Just that sometimes I am surprised by some comments bashing a guy who is solving problems where others had failed.

 

[esaudio]

I never had a problem with CM until I ended up with a problem dog myself. I respect CM for his work, but use it on the wrong dog and you can end up a dead person. I understand he's not telling people "this is how you do it", but it's a tv show and people are going to want to be the next CM.

Did you have any problem using his techniques with a mastiff of some sort? I have never seen CM with any of those huge breed dogs, except for a Dogo Argentino *I posted the video here. The biggest I saw him deal with were a couple of German Shepherds which were pretty dangerous when he got them.

I would love to see him dealing with any kind of mastiff to see how he goes about it.

 

[Boxergirl]

If you truly think that a dog can't be traumatized, then I'm sorry to tell you that you're wrong. Post a separate thread and ask how many owners of rescues had dogs come with baggage already packed.

 

[esaudio]

If you truly think that a dog can't be traumatized, then I'm sorry to tell you that you're wrong. Post a separate thread and ask how many owners of rescues had dogs come with baggage already packed.

Where did you get the idea I said that? But, how many of CM's dogs he treated are traumatized?

 

[DMikeM]

It seems people are saying that Holly would attack if she was eating. I am pretty sure it means if you got near her while she was eating which is still a very bad situation, dog get PTS for less than that. But Boxergirl is spot on the money. CM provoked that dog into attacking. The posture and poking the dog in the neck was meant to cause an attack.

Devils advocate thought. This would be the same activity a young child would be doing to a family dog while it was eating.

Regardless, I don't like his methods.

 

[Boxergirl]

Where did you get the idea I said that? But, how many of CM's dogs he treated are traumatized?

You said this: "Let-s call a spade a spade. You are not training kids that could be traumatized by something like this. A dog is a dog."
Perhaps I misunderstood.