Alpha rolling?

[excelrn]

I've seen reference in several posts against "alpha rolling." I know who Cesar Milan is but have not really followed all his shows, books, etc.
Can someone please describe exactly what alpha rolling is, and why it's not good for Mastiffs? And what is the difference between showing your dog leadership, and being alpha? Part of why I'm asking is because I was showing my daughter this forum and questions came up that I couldn't answer well, so I'm hoping someone else can help me explain.

 

[Sadies Mom]

Have a look at this video....
[video=youtube;-15QnSF_tZ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-15QnSF_tZ8[/video]

 

[chuckorlando]

Far as I can tell it's rolling the dog on it's back and holding them there to show who's the boss. It dont work cause dogs dont act like wolfs I guess. Same idea as biting the dog back. I've tried that and I assure you, the dog aint got a clue why you just bit him. ahahaha and it certainly dont stop them from biting. I guess the idea is dogs dont have packs like a wolf. They dont have the same type dynamic.

What I do know is I can raise my voice and Kona knows who the boss is. If I roll her it only means time to play

 

[excelrn]

Thanks people!

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

It's a dangerous technique to use for any dog and especially mastiffs because of their size and strength. It puts you near to dog' mouth. It was erroneously extrapolated from observing the behaviour of wild canids where it was believed that the animal with a higher rank forced a lower ranking member onto it's back. Further, more in depth studies showed that the lower ranking animal actually voluntarily submits in order to avoid confrontation, basically showing to exposed belly. If the more dominant animal was to attack the submitting animal, it would be breaking the rules of normal canine interaction.

Since we have a greater understanding of how dogs communicate with each other, with us and the fact that domestic dogs are now very distantly related behavioural from wolves in their interaction with humans, the technique has fallen out of favour. Leadership with our dogs is just that, leadership. Pack leadership theory comes from the premise that your dog sees you as unfit for the role and is trying to overthrow you so you need to reinforce it's rank with every interaction.

On a point of safety, what do you do if your 200lb male adolescent mastiff doesn't submit? Use more force? What if you're not physically capable of forcing it down? There are other, more educated references out there than CM. I can point you in the right direction if interested.

Just to let you know, many on this forum (not all) still subscribe to outdated pack theory and training models. Keep an open mind and do your own research.

 

[chuckorlando]

You sure love preaching open minds for a dude who only likes to see one way. If your affraid of being close to your dogs mouth, maybe you should'nt own a dog.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

You sure love preaching open minds for a dude who only likes to see one way. If your affraid of being close to your dogs mouth, maybe you should'nt own a dog.

What a well constructed and thought out argument. Don't only see it one way, I used to train the old fashioned way, I live in the 21st century and my thinking and training philosophy is progressive.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

At the risk of being stoned to death here I don’t think that GDT was saying he was afraid of being close to his dogs mouth, I think he was saying that it could be a dangerous position to be in and I agree to a certain extent in so much as if you had a person who had an adopted dog, new to the dog world and didn’t know properly how to handle themselves in such a situation. Not that excelern is such a person by any means. But take for example you have a person who has adopted any type of dog that has emotional issues that are not known at the time of adoption. They watch TV and see Cesar alpha roll a dog in order to make it submit…then they think to themselves hey I am going to do that. I want my new dog to know who is boss…they give it a shot and bang the dog reacts badly and the person gets bit.

Now saying all that I can roll my two or make them submit or whatever you want to call it, but why do I do it and how is it possible that they will present their bellies to me? Because that is how I handled them from day one. I taught them to trust me, that being on their backs in order to be examined or groomed should the need arise is not threatening. So I can roll my dogs and I have no fear of their mouths, but this was taught from day one, for a particular reason and in a non-threatening manner to my dogs. I would have serious second thoughts doing it to a full grown dog that was new to me through adoption, regardless of size and breed.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

It's a dangerous technique to use for any dog and especially mastiffs because of their size and strength. It puts you near to dog' mouth. It was erroneously extrapolated from observing the behaviour of wild canids where it was believed that the animal with a higher rank forced a lower ranking member onto it's back. Further, more in depth studies showed that the lower ranking animal actually voluntarily submits in order to avoid confrontation, basically showing to exposed belly. If the more dominant animal was to attack the submitting animal, it would be breaking the rules of normal canine interaction.

Since we have a greater understanding of how dogs communicate with each other, with us and the fact that domestic dogs are now very distantly related behavioural from wolves in their interaction with humans, the technique has fallen out of favour. Leadership with our dogs is just that, leadership. Pack leadership theory comes from the premise that your dog sees you as unfit for the role and is trying to overthrow you so you need to reinforce it's rank with every interaction.

On a point of safety, what do you do if your 200lb male adolescent mastiff doesn't submit? Use more force? What if you're not physically capable of forcing it down? There are other, more educated references out there than CM. I can point you in the right direction if interested.

Just to let you know, many on this forum (not all) still subscribe to outdated pack theory and training models. Keep an open mind and do your own research.

I agree Chuck this is the bit that gets me.........

Think he should take a bit of his own advice.

OP doing an alpha dangerous and downright stupid IMO. Depending on the breed it could backfire.

 

[chuckorlando]

What a well constructed and thought out argument. Don't only see it one way, I used to train the old fashioned way, I live in the 21st century and my thinking and training philosophy is progressive.

I'm sorry, you must have mistaken that response for me arguing with you. You come off as a condescending jerk IMO. The only thing in your whole responce that dont sound like a 13yr old who just had his hand slapped is " Don't only see it one way, I used to train the old fashioned way" Further more I dont disagree with what you said. I do how ever disagree with the arrogance that seems to drip from almost every post I've read from you. The better than thou attitude. Like when you say "most". When the fact is you know almost nothing about almost any member on this site. You know absolutly zero about how I train or deal with my dogs. All you know about me, is on more than one occasion I've said something you did'nt like. So in all your progressiveness you just assume you know something. Why dont you try working with "I" You know, "I" do this, "I" would do that, "I" would handle it that way. See when "You" do that, "I" dont need to take offence as I'm part of "Most" of the members here

I live in the 21st century and my thinking and training philosophy is progressive.

send us a post card as no one else lives there and certainly no one is progressive

MM I dont disagree with that. But I believe in natural selction. If your brain is so small that you cant reason not to put your head around a dog that you dont know and trust 100%, you deserve just what comes to you. I like to think people are a little smarter than that.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I'm sorry, you must have mistaken that response for me arguing with you. You come off as a condescending jerk IMO. The only thing in your whole responce that dont sound like a 13yr old who just had his hand slapped is " Don't only see it one way, I used to train the old fashioned way" Further more I dont disagree with what you said. I do how ever disagree with the arrogance that seems to drip from almost every post I've read from you. The better than thou attitude. Like when you say "most". When the fact is you know almost nothing about almost any member on this site. You know absolutly zero about how I train or deal with my dogs. All you know about me, is on more than one occasion I've said something you did'nt like. So in all your progressiveness you just assume you know something. Why dont you try working with "I" You know, "I" do this, "I" would do that, "I" would handle it that way. See when "You" do that, "I" dont need to take offence as I'm part of "Most" of the members here

I live in the 21st century and my thinking and training philosophy is progressive.

send us a post card as no one else lives there and certainly no one is progressive

MM I dont disagree with that. But I believe in natural selction. If your brain is so small that you cant reason not to put your head around a dog that you dont know and trust 100%, you deserve just what comes to you. I like to think people are a little smarter than that.

If I could like/thank a post. THANK YOU.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

At the risk of being stoned to death here I don’t think that GDT was saying he was afraid of being close to his dogs mouth, I think he was saying that it could be a dangerous position to be in and I agree to a certain extent in so much as if you had a person who had an adopted dog, new to the dog world and didn’t know properly how to handle themselves in such a situation. Not that excelern is such a person by any means. But take for example you have a person who has adopted any type of dog that has emotional issues that are not known at the time of adoption. They watch TV and see Cesar alpha roll a dog in order to make it submit…then they think to themselves hey I am going to do that. I want my new dog to know who is boss…they give it a shot and bang the dog reacts badly and the person gets bit.

Now saying all that I can roll my two or make them submit or whatever you want to call it, but why do I do it and how is it possible that they will present their bellies to me? Because that is how I handled them from day one. I taught them to trust me, that being on their backs in order to be examined or groomed should the need arise is not threatening. So I can roll my dogs and I have no fear of their mouths, but this was taught from day one, for a particular reason and in a non-threatening manner to my dogs. I would have serious second thoughts doing it to a full grown dog that was new to me through adoption, regardless of size and breed.

Yes, MM useful comments, well said, but rolling your dog onto it's back for belly rubs or physical examination is different from "apha" rolling which, unless I'm mistaken, the OP is asking about it in the case of using it as a way of asserting your "dominance" over the dog, which is where it is dangerous.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I'm sorry, you must have mistaken that response for me arguing with you. You come off as a condescending jerk IMO. The only thing in your whole responce that dont sound like a 13yr old who just had his hand slapped is " Don't only see it one way, I used to train the old fashioned way" Further more I dont disagree with what you said. I do how ever disagree with the arrogance that seems to drip from almost every post I've read from you. The better than thou attitude. Like when you say "most". When the fact is you know almost nothing about almost any member on this site. You know absolutly zero about how I train or deal with my dogs. All you know about me, is on more than one occasion I've said something you did'nt like. So in all your progressiveness you just assume you know something. Why dont you try working with "I" You know, "I" do this, "I" would do that, "I" would handle it that way. See when "You" do that, "I" dont need to take offence as I'm part of "Most" of the members here

I live in the 21st century and my thinking and training philosophy is progressive.

send us a post card as no one else lives there and certainly no one is progressive

MM I dont disagree with that. But I believe in natural selction. If your brain is so small that you cant reason not to put your head around a dog that you dont know and trust 100%, you deserve just what comes to you. I like to think people are a little smarter than that.

I hear ya, and yeah if you are stupid enough then you deserve what you get. Sad thing is...there are people out there that are stupid enough.

 

[chuckorlando]

Then we need laws that say if your dog bites you cause your stupid, we give the dog a prize and ban you from owning a dog. If you aint able to keep your own face from being bitten, how do you keep others from being bitten

 

[ruthcatrin]

I've seen reference in several posts against "alpha rolling." I know who Cesar Milan is but have not really followed all his shows, books, etc.
Can someone please describe exactly what alpha rolling is, and why it's not good for Mastiffs? And what is the difference between showing your dog leadership, and being alpha? Part of why I'm asking is because I was showing my daughter this forum and questions came up that I couldn't answer well, so I'm hoping someone else can help me explain.

I didn't watch the video, but alpha rolling isn't what most people percieve it as. When a dog alpha rolls in reaction to another dog, the "submissive" dog has done it vollentarily. He is in no way forced to submit, he's doing it himself to acknowledge "oops!". Example: I had a half frozen pork shoulder that I wanted to give the dogs. Since it was so big I took out to the run for them, and both dogs enjoyed it quite a bit. After a while it was time to come in, and I went to collect the shoulder to repackage for the next day. My smaller dog (who's had some resource guarding issues) didn't see me come up behind him and when I reached for the shoulder he snapped at my hand. I didn't have to do a thing, as soon as he realized it ME that he'd snapped at (which took about 1/2 a second), he rolled onto his back. He basically "alpha rolled" himself. THATS a real alpha roll. All that forcing a dog to "alpha roll" does is show you're the bigger bully.

Also note that this is not the same as the dog presenting his belly for belly rubs, or asking the dog to lie down for handling by a vet. Both my dogs present for belly rubs quite often, and Apollo in particular has been trained to allow handling by me and by vet techs at my command.

And please take everything Glasgow says with a grain of salt. Though some of his advice is good, some of it isn't. He isn't nearly as positive as he insists he is, and he's HIGHLY inflexable despite his protestations otherwise. He insists he's here to hang out with a mastiff community, but he never posts outside of the training topic, and almost every post ends up being a "lookit me I train dogs!!!".

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Ruth - has Apollo even rolled for you? Ive never seen Moo do it. Mind you she hasnt had to but I cant see her ever doing it either. She would sooner give me 'the look' and saunter off. LOL

 

[ruthcatrin]

Ruth - has Apollo even rolled for you? Ive never seen Moo do it. Mind you she hasnt had to but I cant see her ever doing it either. She would sooner give me 'the look' and saunter off. LOL

Not in an alpha roll no. He'll present his belly for rubs, but the closest I've seen him do is lie down on his belly and stare at us. And that was the hugest surprise I've ever seen. My husband came home from work in a RAGE over something (I know what, but it'd start a whole different conversation and I'm not going to hijack the thread). My husband doesn't loose his temper often, and I think it was the first time (only time?) Apollo's seen him THAT MAD (I seriously don't know how he drove, talk about "seeing red" mad). Apollo went to go greet him at the door like usual.....got within a couple feet, froze for just an instant, and dropped like a rock to the floor, flat. We both thought he'd had a seziure or something. As soon as he realized Husband wasn't mad at HIM he popped back up and was normal.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I didn't watch the video, but alpha rolling isn't what most people percieve it as. When a dog alpha rolls in reaction to another dog, the "submissive" dog has done it vollentarily. He is in no way forced to submit, he's doing it himself to acknowledge "oops!". Example: I had a half frozen pork shoulder that I wanted to give the dogs. Since it was so big I took out to the run for them, and both dogs enjoyed it quite a bit. After a while it was time to come in, and I went to collect the shoulder to repackage for the next day. My smaller dog (who's had some resource guarding issues) didn't see me come up behind him and when I reached for the shoulder he snapped at my hand. I didn't have to do a thing, as soon as he realized it ME that he'd snapped at (which took about 1/2 a second), he rolled onto his back. He basically "alpha rolled" himself. THATS a real alpha roll. All that forcing a dog to "alpha roll" does is show you're the bigger bully.

Also note that this is not the same as the dog presenting his belly for belly rubs, or asking the dog to lie down for handling by a vet. Both my dogs present for belly rubs quite often, and Apollo in particular has been trained to allow handling by me and by vet techs as my command.

And please take everything Glasgow says with a grain of salt. Though some of his advice is good, some of it isn't. He isn't nearly as positive as he insists he is, and he's HIGHLY inflexable despite his protestations otherwise. He insists he's here to hang out with a mastiff community, but he never posts outside of the training topic, and almost every post ends up being a "lookit me I train dogs!!!".

Thanks Ruth for confirming my observation. If my boys know I'm pissed they place themselves in the "submissive" position, WITHOUT me touching them. Experienced the same results when worked at a kennel.

I don't know what "genius" came up with the alpha roll concept. If they had actually studied canine behavior they would see that they were WAY off course.

Although I think doing the alpha roll is a great way to get some cool battle scars. Great conversation starter.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

haha! i've seen moo do the drop as well but never a roll. its amazing how much they can flatten themselves!

 

[ruthcatrin]

haha! i've seen moo do the drop as well but never a roll. its amazing how much they can flatten themselves!

yes it is!

And welcome DD!