????????????????

[ruthcatrin]

sorry

I'm still hoping the behaviorist/trainer will have some ideas :/

 

[rdryan]

Me too but after talking to BYB about Mama and the other owner about sister, I am feeling pretty down about it all.

 

[cayeesmom]

'k

Yes, there are dogs for whome nothing seems to work. Is it possible that the right technique or trainer just wasn't found? yes....but there IS a genetic compenant to it, and there are times when it just can't be over ridden.

I sadly agree , some dogs just can not be helped.

 

[rdryan]

Argh.... ran into a friend at the grocery store who is also a friend of the original owner. She asked how Xerxes was doing, so I told her what has been going on. She said something along the lines of..... yeah, they were having those troubles too and they had a couple trainers tell them he couldn't be helped and that it would likely only get worse...... WTH is wrong with people? They never told me anything like that and they knew I had a house full of small children often.

 

[Mamacast]

Argh.... ran into a friend at the grocery store who is also a friend of the original owner. She asked how Xerxes was doing, so I told her what has been going on. She said something along the lines of..... yeah, they were having those troubles too and they had a couple trainers tell them he couldn't be helped and that it would likely only get worse...... WTH is wrong with people? They never told me anything like that and they knew I had a house full of small children often.

I understand your anger, you should have to have a license to breed!!!! When I was showing labs I picked up a pup in Texas after studying the lines in this one breeding and talking extensively to the dog's owner. At 3 years old our pup developed some random biting habits, nipped at one of our toddlers and bit the hand of a neighbor when offered through the fence. We boarded /trained her for a month thinking that would help but shortly after she came home she bit another hand when offered to her ( she would wag her tail as if to invite a pet and then pounce). This last one required an ED visit for eval so she was also quarantined. We did end up putting her down, couldn't take the risk. When I called the breeder to inquire she revealed that her dog had jumped into her bed and attacked her, 67 stitches. Wrong Wrong Wrong

 

[rdryan]

I have an appointment for next Friday. I can cancel it if the trainer on Monday thinks he can help but I am not feeling very hopeful at this point. When I was in the shower this morning, nobody else was home, so I left Xerxes out and he came in and was growling at me through the shower curtain. Even after I pulled it aside so he could see it was me, he growled for another few seconds before he backed off.
What you described is exactly how Xerxes has bitten. Approaches in a friendly manner, seeming like he wants affection and then snaps. The whole thing sucks. And the waiting for help and/or Friday's appointment is very stressful. We are trying hard to keep his life being stuck in a room or muzzled as happy and calm as we can but he knows something is wrong, he just doesn't realize it is him.

 

[CeeCee]

A few random thoughts...

From re-reading your posts, it sounds like bites came after he was done being pet. Yes? Is it possible that the petting is overstimulating him? Have you ever heard of something called Tellington Touch? At a high level, it's accupressure for dogs. If he is getting overstimualted this might be something that can help you to identify what types touch he will enjoy and not react to and which types of touch to avoid.

So many parts of what you're saying remind me of some of Zeek's behaviors. Growling at you in the shower. There were times when Zeek didn't recognize one of his family members - seeing you wasn't enough, he had to hear your voice before he recognized us - especially if he was stimulated state (aka fearful or concerned).

When I had a Trainer come over to evaluate Zeek, we saw that Zeek was fine with the Trainer when he was leaning back in a chair, but when the trainer sat up just a little straighter - less than an inch - it was too much for Zeek and he went ballistic barking at the Trainer.

I've also learned that when Zeek has a stressful experience, it lowers his tolerance for the next stressful experience and he needs to be removed from the situation and given time to decompress - he usually needs about 20 to 30 minutes. If he isn't allowed to decompress, his fuse will be that much shorter for the next experience. (Stress for Zeek can be walking past a dog barking and straining on his leash - not meeting the dog and then coming across someone later in the walk who tries to pet him.) On certain days, that can be too much for him - on other days it's a non-issue.

As for warning signs, when I was trying to figure out Zeek's signs, someone on this forum told me that for a lot of Mastiffs, the warning signs are VERY subtle like stopping breathing for a second. And sure enough Zeek, closes his mouth and holds in breath for a second at that is his only warning right before he reacts, but before that he will give a lot of sideways glances to whatever is making him nervous. I know you have small children and a busy household, but if you can identify his signals, you'll have a much better chance of intervening before if gets to the critical level.

I tell you this because with over a year of hard work and diligence, Zeek is much more confident, much more predictable, and less reactive.

Maybe some of this will help. Please keep us posted.

 

[rdryan]

Was Zeek actually biting people that he knew well? Xerxes is.

In both bites where he connected with the hand and left holes, the petting was soft, slow strokes. Not patting or anything invigorating. In some of the snaps where a connection was not made due to me being fast enough to grab a collar, the petting was also slow and calm. He approaches in a friendly manner and then bam... total switch. He has snapped several times without any petting taking place too and every time, he has approached the person in a calm and friendly manner.

He is not happy being stuck in my room all the time but I have no other choice. I won't risk the kids getting hurt in order to study his body language looking for the subtle signs. He has not shown any of this towards the kids but he always enjoyed my mom until he turned on her, so I won't risk it, not even muzzled, he could knock them flying with how fast and hard he lunges.

It's like living with a loaded gun being waved around all the time.

 

[Kelly]

I have a dog who acted like that around Xerxes' age. I rescued him and shortly after accidently drove over his leg so he had stitches and was on meds. He bit somoene then, and also bit another person as they were coming into my house. They were both complete strangers, so that's different. BUt.

I had him eval'd by AC. They walked in and Jovo rolled over onto his back and they said he's not going to be a problem but i needed to learn how to manage him. My daughter was 15 at the time so we didn't have the "little Kid" danger to worry about. he's now 14 years old. I've managed him all these years and never truly trusted him. Pretty sure he'd be ok but he definitely did mellow with age.

I did some basic nilif training with him which seemed to help. Also he loves the TT CeeCee was talking about earlier. I took a an intro course and the touches do make a difference. He's considered the worst dog on the vets' patient list - I really hate taking him to the vet. But if I do TT with him 1/2 hour before we go it makes a difference.

I do recommend it. they not only teach the touching, but also how to look at the dog and really see how they stand how they move, how they look at things.

 

[taisa899]

Just out of curiosity has his eye sight ever been checked?

Sent from my BlackBerry 9300 using Tapatalk

 

[rdryan]

His eye sight has not been formally checked since we brought him home with us but I honestly don't think he has a problem seeing. He can spot a speck of food on the floor from quite a distance and has a hate for crows and can spot one from quite a ways away.

In all cases of snaps or bites, he has seen and acted friendly toward the person before the switch and snap/bite. There are two people that come here regularly, to pick up or drop of grand children, my grand son's Mama and my son in law and with each of them, he barks when they arrive, stops barking and wags his tail and then after a minute or so decides he is going to try and chase them back out the door barking and posturing with fur standing up. But that happens after he's been sent to his mat to lay down and has calmed down from his initial response to someone being at the door.

 

[Mast1ff0wnr]

Your story is an awakening call. I have family and friends wanting to pet my pups but I get nervous. Ginger and Muffin are in a big pen and we keep them there when we have visitors because of the unknown.

I hope it all works out for you.

I am shocked at how fast it got to this point. We thought we had a handle on his triggers and were making some headway and then this. My heart is broken. I love this dog incredibly. I thought I was helping by bringing him home and keeping him out of a shelter but what a mess we have now. My mom had to go to the ER and of course the bite was reported so animal control is coming tomorrow so I can show them his needles are up to date. I offered to go there with the paperwork but they insisted they will come here..... ugh.

 

[Hector]

I just thought of something. What about trying some calming aids/tablets?

 

[rdryan]

Been doing that and seemed to help but did not help enough to avoid the last bite.

 

[Hector]

Oh, sorry

 

[rdryan]

It is totally like he has two personalities. And that almost makes it harder. The behaviorist should be here in a few minutes, so here's hoping he thinks of something I haven't already tried.

 

[Sadies Mom]

Crossing fingers and paws that the behaviorist has some suggestions ray:

 

[rdryan]

Well, where to start...... first of all, it was a difficult morning because Xerxes never really calmed down the whole time he was here. Barking, growling, lunging, trying to bite him through the muzzle, posturing and then finally listen and hit the mat and then after a quick break, repeat etc.... for almost 2 hours. And that was with the guy just sitting in a chair, with no touch, no talk, no eye contact. He never calmed to the point where the muzzle could safely come off or the guy could even really interact with him. He said the rest of today will either be horrible with Xerxes on edge all day or he will sleep the rest of the day away from exhausting himself with all that. He is pacing right now but hopefully he will settle himself down and sleep for a bit.

Wasn't very hopeful. Apparently I am doing things right, NILIF, redirection work, desensitizing work and regular obedience reinforcement. He got a good eyeful of how I deal directly with the aggression and he said there is not much more that I can be doing. He said he had very little hope that Xerxes would improve much based on the fact that it isn't just strangers he has issue with and it is escalating after a little improvement. Family members have been targets too. He figures the only reason he hasn't turned on me is because I apparently have really good energy and body language for a dog. But he said he couldn't be comfortable telling me that he will never turn on me. There is nothing physically wrong and his handling and training has been pretty much what he would suggest since he's been here.

He told me I could try to continue to work with him but he wasn't very optimistic about him ever being a dog to be trusted and told me that managing a dog like this will be difficult at best. He seems to be escalating instead of improving and that may be from all the stress of the last two bites or might just be that he has started to reach the peak of his true temperament.

I asked what he would do if he were in my shoes. He said, we have to be able to step back, look at it for what it is and know when to throw in the towel and told me to be very careful with him around all people until I decide what to do.

Ugh.

 

[Jeannag]

All I can say is I'm sorry. I had an English bull terrier that had the same issues only towards animals, fine one second then a switch flipped and it was over. I even had to use pepper spray once to get him to release, it didn't even phase him. And after the attack it was like he couldn't even remember what he'd done or why he was crated. Broke my heart, I knew he couldn't control it. I had to put him down, one of the worst days of my life. But he was so stressed and upset afterwards to keep him in that turmoil was cruel. I miss him every day but I know I did the right thing for him. It wasn't his fault. And I kept thinking I could fix him, train it out, exercise it out, medicate it out. And in the end I failed him, his breeder failed him. And the only thing I could do to fix it was let him go. Sorry for how long, but I know where you've been, it sucks. And I'm sorry that you have to go through this.

 

[thelady_v2010]

I am so sorry.