Why not to support BYBs

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Quick question for people who are looking to purchase a puppy what would be the definition of a BYB. So people know certain signs to stay away from. Its a tricky question because these pups actually have AKC papers even though they are false? I know registration is a big part of buying a pup. People feel this certificate protects them some how and it didnt in this case. So I was wondering if we could post some really good signs to look for in a breeder.

Somepeople may think BYB are breeders that are small kennels that only breed occasionally but thats not the case all the time. It might just be waiting for the perfect match to mate. Just because your a bigger breeder doesnt always mean better.

Anybody else?

I define a BYB as someone who doesn't give a damn about their dogs or the breed general. When they breed their only interest is to make a profit or put their name out, its never for the benefit/improvement of the breed. Some people tried to create "standardize" list of what to look for in a reputable breeder. Unfortunately the list is too "black" and "white" and even breeders who follow this list could still be BYB's. Best thing I learned is to find breeder who shares similar beliefs and goals that your looking for. Breeders who put health testing and temperament first above all others. Confirmation is important but I feel sometimes we get too carried away and start nitpicking for the "ideal/perfect" specimen.

Another thing to remember is that BYB's are not always "bad" people, some are, but some have good intentions they just go about the "wrong" way of doing it......my 2 cents anyway.

 

[dsaw247]

Another thing to remember is that BYB's are not always "bad" people, some are, but some have good intentions they just go about the "wrong" way of doing it......my 2 cents anyway.

Exactly. Which, as I stated in my post, I really liked the breeders we got Moose from. They were good people. I think too often people get the idea the byb are all evil and cruel. While that can be true, it's not always the case. Good response, DD.

 

[Robtouw]

This thread is exactly why I was so picky in my search for my pup. I demanded alot from breeders on purpose to help weed out bad ones. If a breeder had issues with my questions, I just walked away. Anyone can AKC register a dog or pups, it isn't regulated, there are no specific requirements put in place to catch fraud so registration is not a good indicator. I asked to see the female and male that were bred, wanted a vet ck with vaccine records, worming records etc from a vet, asked to speak with the vet, etc. Asked for physical test records of the parents, and wanted several site visits prior to taking the pup. My breeder answered everything, had paperwork that checked out well, even had her vet speak with mine. She sent pics of the pups and encouraged visits. I was pretty lucky. I did visit other breeders that had bitches that just looked tired and overbred, you could see they were miserable and were just being used for money. I hated and still hate these people! I would love to be able to stop them. Several litters of pups that I visited were so devoid of breed characteristics that I wondered exactly what breed they were. And if you know OEM's they are pretty distinctive even at birth! While my guy isn't show perfect, I wanted a companion put and love that he has a few white toes, its part of why I chose him, the the other part is his behavior when I visited. He has a thing for attacking my poneytail then apologizing I know that he has been bred well.

A good breeder allows and encourages questions, produces vet records on their dogs voluntarily, has begun vaccines and worming, allows and encourages site visits, sends pics, provides feed details on the pups, the mother and continues to follow up after you receive the pup. Ours checks in to see how Cruiser is doing.

 

[Jadotha]

First I want to emphasise a point. The original dog I described and the dogs in the pics did not have 'fake' AKC papers. They were registered pure-breds but simply badly bred. This is probably the first important thing new buyers need to understand. As dsaw said, too many see the words "Pure bred, AKC" and believe that guarantees they are buying a puppy of quality. It doesn't at all. The AKC is simply a registry for dogs whose pedigrees make them eligible for registration. The AKC does not inspect and approve dogs for breeding.

In terms of what makes a BYB, and what makes a good breeder, I see breeders falling along a continuum -- ranging from 'Scum of the Earth' puppy mills to 'top drawer' responsible breeders -- based on their motivations for breeding and the number of 'good breeder' characteristics they demonstrate. From the beginning of a puppy search, here are the main things that I would consider red flags:

Adverts/websites
RED FLAGS:
Ø Websites that advertise breedings and require deposits before puppies are on the ground. I know a few highly reputable and successful showing/breeding kennels who do this, but I also know of some scammers who claimed litters died and never repaid hefty deposits. I personally will only put down a deposit when the puppies have been born, and I have carried out my ‘due diligence’ on the breeder and parents.

Ø Immediate emphasis on size of mother and father

Ø References to 'rare colours'/promoting colours that are not accepted in breed standards (e.g., chocolate Danes)

Ø "Championship lines' (It often turns out that there was one champion five generations back).

Ø No references to puppies being raised in the house, health guarantees etc.

Ø Puppies available to take home younger than 8 wks

Ø Pictures of parents that clearly do not conform to breed standards (which means you should study up on breed standards before looking for a puppy. This may sound snobbish, but if dogs cannot meet standards, they should not EVER be bred. Usually deviance from standards means undesirable recessives are being expressed and along with those there are likely recessives affecting health).

First phone conversation (s):

RED FLAGS
Ø Stated goals such as ‘we are getting into the business’, ‘we love our dogs and this is a way to augment our family income’ or anything else suggesting a largely financial motivation (versus wanting to improve some aspect of the breed and/or add showing or breeding stock to their program).
Ø Dogs are registered not with the AKC but with a less reputable organization such as the CKC (not to be confused with the Canadian Kennel Club)
Ø Breeder is not willing to answer extensive questions about his/her breeding program, bloodlines and pedigree -- and why s/he selected the lines s/he did, --health issues;what s/he were hoping to achieve with this breeding' showing history, vet references and so on.
Ø Breeder has litters galore each year.
Ø Breeder pushes straight away for a decision and deposit (“ a couple from X will be here tomorrow and are interested in the brindle puppy”) – or invites you out at your earliest convenience and tries to ‘hook’ you with the cute, adorable puppies
o Alternatively, breeder wants you to pick from pictures, and suggests a ‘neutral’ half way location for delivering the puppy
Ø Breeder has not fully health tested parents or—if not parents, all grandparents
Ø Breeder has not showed the dogs used for breeding OR had them evaluated by an expert (with proof this happened)
Ø Pedigrees have indifferent lines, are overly inbred, or do not seem to make sense
Ø Puppies are available earlier than 8 wks at a minimum
Ø Breeder is not really interested in what you plan to use your puppy for.
Ø Breeder does not actively and thoroughly screen you.
Ø Breeder does not have a contract or health guarantee for genetic defects

Visiting the breeder:

This is THE killer event for puppy seekers, as it can be next to impossible to resist The Puppy Cuteness Virus. My breeder/mentor in England advised me to ask for pictures but never to go see and pick a puppy until I had done research on the breeder and was relatively certain I would commit to a puppy. Most reputable breeders will help you in selecting the puppy best suited to your needs and life-style. Because we wanted to show, our last breeder selected two puppies that she felt had the most potential, and resisted other offers – allowing us to make our final decision when we came to pick up our puppy.
RED FLAGS
Ø Pressure to come see and pick a puppy
Ø Obviously, poorly nourished and neglected dogs
Ø Dirty puppies with eye issues, runny noses, poor coats
Ø Unhygienic outdoor kennels
Ø More than one or two litters
Ø Bitches looking out of condition and/or over bred -- information that shows they have bred more than twice before retirement
Ø Parents who are poorly socialized
Ø Parents who do not meet standards (see above)
Ø No contracts or health guarantees

Then, of course, when you have taken your puppy home, BYB’s will not return emails or phone calls, won’t help with issues and attempt to cut off contact.

I'm sure others can add to this list. I should add, that in the middle part of the continuum are well intentioned people who do love their dogs and breed once because they want a puppy from their beloved Juno or Julius. They generally take excellent care of their dogs and the puppies when they arrive. They are usually very nice people. I don't see these in the same category as profit minded BYB's but you do take a chance, as generally these dogs are not health tested.

 

[grazefull1]

wow

 

[bellareea320]

jadotha: Amazing and very informative post!!!!

 

[Cody]

The problem with the well intoned BYB, the one that does love their dogs, has a male and female so why not, is that the dogs most often do not conform to proper breed standards, in type or temperament.
The so called breeders will sell to anyone without proper research.
In my breed that needs to be a priority.
The Corso is becoming the next "pit bull/rottie/GSD (depending on the decade). Poor temperament and health issues are exploding, people who can't handle these dogs and want a lawn ordiment, or one at the end of a leash cause they "look cool" are every where.
Hell, most of the BYB's in my area can't even pronounce the name correctly
We try, as a community, to educate but the idea of making 1200$ a puppy is too enticing.
Whether or not one agrees with breed standards, in the CC at least, it is still to ensure proper health and movement of a working dog. To maintain the breeds type.
I have just found out there are puppies 3 blocks from my home, they are posting flyers for the puppies every where.
No health testing, no titles, the parents look like train wrecks, bought from a CC puppymill, who again does nothing with their dogs but sells cheap.... So now, in a few months or years down the road guess who will be getting calls about these dogs, needing them placed, fostered and trained...
I work hard to represent our breed in a positive manner, getting out and educating people, explaining the work involved in creating a well balanced dog that I can take ANYWHERE. Every positive step forward the CC community here in Canada tries to take, the BYB's take back 3 steps.
And trust me, the Corso in Canada has a HUGE hill to climb, it was sabatoged from the get go.
There... End rant.

 

[Robtouw]

CC's here are becoming exactly what you pointed out, leashed lawn ornaments, and I absolutely hate it. I love the mastiff breed, all of them. In the right hands they are wonderful dogs. Bad breeders are marketing them as something they are not, a relative of the bully fighting breed. Good breeding is essential for any breed to survive and it is getting more difficult to find excellent breeders that care about the breed not the money made by breeding. The list of dogs with attached stigma from bad breeding and bad owners is getting larger and insurance companies, rental places, etc are refusing to allow them, people are treating these breeds as if they are criminals, when most dogs are not the aggressors they are being made out to be. I am a very vocal advocate of good breeding, excellent training and proper healthcare for pets. I will call out a bad breeder or puppy mill in a split second when given a chance. Can't stand them. There are many people that I see that I would love to ban from owning pets of any kind... While living in Germany, I learned that the German pet is quite different, their attitudes, treatment of dogs, etc just seem to be held at a higher standard. I loved not seeing mutts, strays and unkept dogs. I would love to see higher punishments for animal cruelty here in the USA.

 

[Jadotha]

@ Bellareea, Thank you!


@ Cody
If your rant was directed at me, let me underline:

> I titled this thread 'Why not to support BYB', and my first post described in detail a horribly bred Mastiff I encountered on a play date. I also provided pictures of almost unrecognisable Mastiffs, and said,

" I am afraid the papers are authentic and this breeder has been indiscriminately churning out litter upon litter of puppies who -- in just a few generations -- have lost their breed characteristics. I have seen this happen amongst Great Dane BYBs in as little as three generations of bad breeding.

In other posts I have stated, "Dogs who do not meet the breed standard should not be bred, period".

I spent quite a lot of time reflecting on my own and others' experiences and developing my list of red flags to HELP people discern good from bad breeders -- quickly spotting the red flags so they didn't end up with a dog that did not even look like, or behave like its breed, and/or had a plethora of health problems. That was my PRIMARY point, not that it is ok to run out and buy from BYBs. If it sounded that I was condoning that, I apologise. But I am a little perturbed if what was essentially a small, two line afterthought provoked your post.
.

The problem with the well intoned BYB, the one that does love their dogs, has a male and female so why not, is that the dogs most often do not conform to proper breed standards, in type or temperament.
The so called breeders will sell to anyone without proper research.

Three of my RED FLAGS:

Ø Parents who do not meet standards (see above)
Ø Breeder is not really interested in what you plan to use your puppy for.
Ø Breeder does not actively and thoroughly screen you.

In my view these would pertain to whomever you were considering acquiring a puppy from.

My thought in regard to making a 'nice people who love their dogs distinction', is this: I belong to a Great Dane forum in which BYB's of all ilk are painted as The Scum Of the Earth, Spawn of the Devil. So, time after time, when members went out and met breeders such as the ones dsaw bought Moose from, they think something to the effect of "Hey these people don't have horns and a tail. Dollar signs are not bulging our of their eyes. They are nice, and their dogs look well cared for. These must not be BYBs"

Another important point in my view is that well-intentioned hobby breeders -- who do somethings but not everything right -- and Juno and Julius breeders, is that IF they do NOT HAVE A PROFIT MOTIVE but truly love and are interested in their dogs and doing what is right for the breed, they are in my experience highly educable. I have helped a couple of new Great Dane breeders (who had very nice bloodlines and stock) understand why it was vital to get a mentor, begin showing to championship, research bloodlines, develop breeding program goals and do health testing. I went through the costs and risks associated with whelping and properly caring for puppies up through eight weeks, versus potential profit with a would be BYB, convincing him to neuter his dogs.

I do agree CC are particularly vulnerable to bad breeders because the AKC (don't know about Canadian KC) standards are relatively new, and there seem to be some diverse 'types' within the breed

 

[grazefull1]

@ Bellareea, Thank you!


@ Cody
If your rant was directed at me, let me underline:

> I titled this thread 'Why not to support BYB', and my first post described in detail a horribly bred Mastiff I encountered on a play date. I also provided pictures of almost unrecognisable Mastiffs, and said, In other posts I have stated, "Dogs who do not meet the breed standard should not be bred, period".

I spent quite a lot of time reflecting on my own and others' experiences and developing my list of red flags to HELP people discern good from bad breeders -- quickly spotting the red flags so they didn't end up with a dog that did not even look like, or behave like its breed, and/or had a plethora of health problems. That was my PRIMARY point, not that it is ok to run out and buy from BYBs. If it sounded that I was condoning that, I apologise. But I am a little perturbed if what was essentially a small, two line afterthought provoked your post.
.
Three of my RED FLAGS:

Ø Parents who do not meet standards (see above)
Ø Breeder is not really interested in what you plan to use your puppy for.
Ø Breeder does not actively and thoroughly screen you.

In my view these would pertain to whomever you were considering acquiring a puppy from.

My thought in regard to making a 'nice people who love their dogs distinction', is this: I belong to a Great Dane forum in which BYB's of all ilk are painted as The Scum Of the Earth, Spawn of the Devil. So, time after time, when members went out and met breeders such as the ones dsaw bought Moose from, they think something to the effect of "Hey these people don't have horns and a tail. Dollar signs are not bulging our of their eyes. They are nice, and their dogs look well cared for. These must not be BYBs"

Another important point in my view is that well-intentioned hobby breeders -- who do somethings but not everything right -- and Juno and Julius breeders, is that IF they do NOT HAVE A PROFIT MOTIVE but truly love and are interested in their dogs and doing what is right for the breed, they are in my experience highly educable. I have helped a couple of new Great Dane breeders (who had very nice bloodlines and stock) understand why it was vital to get a mentor, begin showing to championship, research bloodlines, develop breeding program goals and do health testing. I went through the costs and risks associated with whelping and properly caring for puppies up through eight weeks, versus potential profit with a would be BYB, convincing him to neuter his dogs.

I do agree CC are particularly vulnerable to bad breeders because the AKC (don't know about Canadian KC) standards are relatively new, and there seem to be some diverse 'types' within the breed

n your rite i can c abit of a difference in my cc (regisered under AKC/iccf ) my friends cc (regisered under CKC/enic) n i guessing that shouldnt b this would wound confuse anyone that didnt know about the breed r any breeds

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I find mentors to be just as "good" or "bad" as the next BYB. Mentors can provide a wonderful learning experience form a great relationship. Or open a pandora's box of breed politics, egos, and status.

I'll take an honest down to earth person over snake oil salesmen any day.

 

[Jadotha]

I find mentors to be just as "good" or "bad" as the next BYB. Mentors can provide a wonderful learning experience form a great relationship. Or open a pandora's box of breed politics, egos, and status.

I'll take an honest down to earth person over snake oil salesmen any day.

Hmmmm, well perhaps it depends on one's definition and expectations of a 'mentor'. I don't know what experiences you have had, or what pictures are in your head about the word 'mentor'. \

I have had two sets of mentors: The first when I started my own horse showing and breeding stable: Xanadu Arabians, and one when we began showing and were considering moving into breeding IWHs. Neither of them could be construed as 'snake oil salesmen' because they weren't selling anything. Just sticking with our IWH mentors, they were a foremost breeding and showing kennel in Ireland -- who would have fit anyone's definition of a reputable breeder. They became my mentors after I had chosen them and they had accepted me for a show quality puppy from them. They permitted me to use their Kennel name in showing. They were both International judges. They spent quite a lot of time with me teaching/coaching me how to properly groom wolfies for showing and how to handle our puppy in the show ring. They taught me how to recognise good points and faults in IWH conformation. They recommended many excellent books about IWHs and when I later expressed interest in breeding, IWH genetics, breeding and whelping. They taught me about the breed's origins, history, evolution and main bloodlines -- what were positive about them, and what recessives/issues tended to occur. Early on in our showing career one or both attended all of our shows, giving us feedback between classes. They encouraged and supported me when I became discouraged. We ended up buying several wolfies from them over the years and they were terrific and did well in the show ring. My mentors are always there to provide advice and help even though at this point we don't have any of their dogs (although I would have if we could afford to import).

So in my case, my mentors exceeded my expectations. Things they didn't do, (and which I didn't expect) were to: In any way influence judges; do 'back door advocating' of us in inner breed circles; sell us services or products.....and I can't think what else would be in that 'pandora's box'.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

In some ways they are "selling" they are "selling" information and experiences with me. I as a customer ( newbie) can either take it no questions ask or continue digging (research). Again like breeders there are "good" as well as "bad." The key is trust.

 

[Jadotha]

Ummmm, I am still not quite understanding your point, DD. What do you mean when you say 'selling' information and experiences (i.e., 'snake oil') with me"....? What is being 'sold' -- which suggests active convincing and application of sales techniques? To whom? And if what is being offered has been solicited, not forced upon one, I am having trouble seeing how it is 'selling'. If you see yourself as a 'customer', then I would say you do not have a 'mentoring' relationship. In my mind,you should select/accept mentors with the same care that should be exercised in selecting a breeder. I am not suggesting suspending all judgement and common sense, and accepting everything the mentor says at face value. Nor do you forgo doing your own research, observation and learning from other sources. A 'mentor' should not be a 'guru'.

And I don't think everyone needs a mentor, but I do believe people getting into showing -- and definitely breeding -- can benefit hugely from one.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I'll try my best Jadotha bear with me

When I say "selling" information I mean convincing that taking a word, motives, and opinions are "truth" or "best of the market". When I say "snake oil salesman" I mean people that are dishonest, deceiving, or lying. The point I am trying to get across is just don't "buy" into everything that people "sell" that includes breeder, mentor, or other. That is why I say research is the key. IMO I believe that individual(s) should take the initiative to educate themselves before "buying" ( following) others. Hope that makes sense. Sorry sometimes I get a little wordy.....lol.

 

[Jadotha]

DD, ok, can you help me understand what the word 'mentor' means to you, please

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Jadotha, I look at "mentor" same as its definitiion a guide or go to person. Even this forum can be a "mentor."

 

[Jadotha]

Oh, ok, we have different definitions, then -- which is fine

 

[Cody]

@Jadotha, my rant was in no means directed at you, was just a rant as this is something I and others have been discussing a lot lately. That and I had just seen a flyer at the local grocery store for CC pups... Was just a rant out loud/online...
@Grazfull, you're friends CC, is it registered with the Canadian Kennel Club or the Continental? There is a big difference. I am asking because you also mention it is registered under ENCI which is the original Italian registry and very well respected and legit registry.
As for mentors, I think that they are an awesome tool, tool not crutch. If one is planning on being a breeder IMO they should have a plan going through generations from the get go. A vision for what it is they are ultimately trying to "create",not just replicating what it is their mentor is doing. If that is the case, then I do not see the point of breeding. Having multiple kennels doing essentially the same pairings doesn't make sense to me.
But that is another conversation.

 

[Jadotha]

@ Cody...oh ok, and this is a great place to just vent! It is a hot topic and an immensely frustrating issue I think for all of us -- but especially so for passionate and ethical breeders/owners that are still solidifying/stabilising their breeds. Also, I do agree Corsi are in danger of becoming the next demonised/ 'bad ass' breed. On another forum we are having an intense discussion on how to proactively protect English Mastiffs from BSL.

As for mentors, I think that they are an awesome tool, tool not crutch. If one is planning on being a breeder IMO they should have a plan going through generations from the get go. A vision for what it is they are ultimately trying to "create",not just replicating what it is their mentor is doing. If that is the case, then I do not see the point of breeding.

I completely agree. And in my experience, these ( developing your own vision of the future state, goals, plans) are exactly the kinds of things a good mentor will assist you in thinking through for yourself, not influencing you to follow in their footsteps.

---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:10 PM ----------

Since I seem to be into lists, here are what I would consider to be Roles and Qualities of a Good Mentor: Let us assume it is a showing/breeding mentor



· Genuinely motivated to help someone in getting started, not looking for a ‘camp follower’.

· Has demonstrated knowledge, expertise and success (that you assess and confirm for yourself, you don’t just take their word for it).
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Is well respected in the profession, and has an excellent reputation
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Has made many champions
· Does not ‘sell’ you or try to convince you to use them as a mentor. In the best relationships I have observed or been involved in, the mentee selects the mentor and initiates the contact.
· (As a breeder) has a clear vision of the future state they want to achieve, can explain how this improves/benefits the breed and can demonstrate progress towards the vision
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Can show you and explain how their breeding programs support attainment of the vision – down to the genetics of particular matings
· Has a consistent theoretical/conceptual foundation they operate from that they can explain to you and with which you feel comfortable. But will encourage you to go out and talk with other breeders/showing people and read and research for yourself. Provides lists of resources and reference material
· Wants to understand, and assists you in further developing your short and long term showing goals. Encourages you to show extensively and gain experience, see hundreds of other dogs / kennels before even thinking about breeding.
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Shares knowledge and expertise – teaches you how to assess conformation, showing techniques, bloodlines, and whatever else you are keen to learn. But does not present how they do things as the ‘best/only’ way.
· Is available to support and coach – but will give objective and realistic feedback
· Is a good role model in terms of care of their dogs
Breeding:
If and when you feel certain you want to pursue breeding, a good mentor will:
Ø Try to discourage you
Ø Help you think through and define what you hope to uniquely contribute to the breed that is not already being done (vision)
Ø Provide a realistic big picture as to what breeding entails and what it demands – in terms of finances, personal time and commitment, risks, rewards
Ø If the above doesn’t deter you, the mentor will help you develop feasible short and longer term goals – with plans -- to achieve YOUR vision (not to clone theirs)
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]They will help you find foundation stock as a first step – which may not be the mentor’s dogs.
Ø Give lots of practical advice on health testing, the breeding process, care and nutrition of pregnant bitches, whelping, care of puppies, and necessary grimble such as registration, contracts, health guarantees, how to screen buyers and so on.