Why not to support BYBs

[Jadotha]

A couple of days ago, a friend of ours invited our 5 mth old EM over for a playdate with her 3 yr old EM. They got on fantastically, as my puppy has so far done on all of his playdates (he had one today at our house, in fact).. This EM came with registration papers and pedigree information, and was as sweet, charming and friendly as could be, but looked NOTHING like an EM. She looked like a Great Dane crossed with a Bulldog, or possibly a boxer. She was as tall as our Great Danes were -- and all leg. She had a deep chest and a pronounced tuck. Her neck was long, and just slightly thicker than a GD's. Whilst she had a lovely mask, she had virtually no wrinkles anywhere, with a muzzle that appeared 'boxer-y'. Our puppy was almost as broad as she was. She also had a gay tail and straight-ish stifles. The overall look was attractive, but NOT remotely to breed standards.

Evidently, this breeder has been in business for years, produces several litters a year, sells to anyone with the money, and does not provide contracts. SIGH!

 

[grazefull1]

? do have pic of the dog? so r u saying basically there a byb posers (lying about what breed they produce) ? i just wonder how they get fake papers

well its not a supprise to me ive seen the same done with CC( presa x pitbull), BM( mastiff x pitbull), EM( great dane x bulldog) ST.B(shepherd x mastiff) n so on its sad but its done all the time n people not knowing n c the cheap prices r alway leer fo these breeders (breeders like these claim to improve on the breeds but we all know they just improve in there pockets)

 

[raechiemay]

That's tough to hear. I don't think we are in the right place where BYB's won't be supported just yet. I wish we could nix them altogether but you & I both know that it won't happen anytime soon. Unfortunately that's all these people see their dogs as....money makers. They don't care about what type of hereditary problems they're producing in their litters if they continue to have people forking up the money to pay for these pups they won't ever stop. We have to educate the people as much as possible to DO THEIR RESEARCH!!! Not just the breed but the breeder also. I just wish it was an easy fix...unfortunately it's not just yet.

 

[grazefull1]

That's tough to hear. I don't think we are in the right place where BYB's won't be supported just yet. I wish we could nix them altogether but you & I both know that it won't happen anytime soon. Unfortunately that's all these people see their dogs as....money makers. They don't care about what type of hereditary problems they're producing in their litters if they continue to have people forking up the money to pay for these pups they won't ever stop. We have to educate the people as much as possible to DO THEIR RESEARCH!!! Not just the breed but the breeder also. I just wish it was an easy fix...unfortunately it's not just yet.

u r rite but to me people that breed just for money n nothing else r all byb no matter how self proclaim they r its just saddens me but raechhiemay i agree with u

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I agree research is important but people are easily emotionally attatched to something. Unfortuely sometimes the way that people do learn is the hard way. I speak with alot of people that asprie to get "insert dog type here", Where do they go? CL? Petsore? And yes to the internet!

Some BYB's are also getting "tactical" in their approach going as far as "mimicing" all the "right" qualities to look for in a reputable breeder.

 

[grazefull1]

I agree research is important but people are easily emotionally attatched to something. Unfortuely sometimes the way that people do learn is the hard way. I speak with alot of people that asprie to get "insert dog type here", Where do they go? CL? Petsore? And yes to the internet!

Some BYB's are also getting "tactical" in their approach going as far as "mimicing" all the "right" qualities to look for in a reputable breeder.

so true byb arent as dumb as u think they do anything to sell

 

[Jadotha]

? do have pic of the dog? so r u saying basically there a byb posers (lying about what breed they produce) ? i just wonder how they get fake papers

Grazefull,
Sorry,I didn't think to bring my camera. I think lying about the breeding and faking papers would be the better situation. I am afraid the papers are authentic and this breeder has been indiscriminately churning out litter upon litter of puppies who -- in just a few generations -- have lost their breed characteristics. I have seen this happen amongst Great Dane BYBs in as little as three generations of bad breeding.

@ Raechiemay

Yes, I realise we really can't do much about them at this point, aside from trying to educate as many potential puppy buyers as we can I was venting more than anything, because I was shocked.

Some BYB's are also getting "tactical" in their approach going as far as "mimicing" all the "right" qualities to look for in a reputable breeder.

DD, good observation -- I agree!

 

[grazefull1]

just a bit shocked i thought u were talking about actally byb but know i realize that not the case your saying that the actaul breeds r being changed at a very fast rate to fit show demands, but show looks change so many times its makes my head spin:scared2: n not for the better, all i have to say is its a sad world driven by money

 

[Jadotha]

Grazeful, You were right the first time, I DO mean BYB's. People like the breeder I mentioned are not intentionally changing the breeds to achieve some goal (like 'designer breeders' -- which are bad enough), or targeting show people. They just breed poor stock to poor stock -- generally inbreeding a great deal, until the dogs no longer resemble the standard.

Here is a picture of a poorly bred mastiff from the "How to avoid poorly bred puppies' site

...And her puppy

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

The head reminds me more of "daney" for some reason....

 

[Jadotha]

I think so, too. The Mastiff I was initially discribing had a longer 'daney' snout, as well, although her ears were set nicely. The poorly bred GDs I saw deteriorated from Great Grandparents who had reasonably nice conformation in comparison to the standard to parents of a litter who both had no stops on their faces but rather long, snipey, 'bloodhoundy' snouts angling down from their foreheads; pendulous ears, roached backs, narrow chests and very little substance. And the breeders were trying to sell merles as 'rare, popular colours'. AAAARGH

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I don't get too caught up in standards however I agree that this dog is a poor specimen of a EM. The only trait that might say "mastiff" to me would be the color but even so I wouldn't even go off that.

Oh the merle discussion don't get me started. People have no idea how dangerous the gene came be and trying to explain it to them leave me exhuausted..........

 

[grazefull1]

Grazeful, You were right the first time, I DO mean BYB's. People like the breeder I mentioned are not intentionally changing the breeds to achieve some goal (like 'designer breeders' -- which are bad enough), or targeting show people. They just breed poor stock to poor stock -- generally inbreeding a great deal, until the dogs no longer resemble the standard.

Here is a picture of a poorly bred mastiff from the "How to avoid poorly bred puppies' site

...And her puppy

ya i can c how this is poorly breed, she seen allfully dise proprition (daneisn)

 

[Jadotha]

@ Grazefull Yep, exactly!

@ DD, Yes, I know what you mean. I know some highly reputable harlequin breeders who do judiciously use merles in their programs, but it seems to me they always have some 'collateral damage' -- one or more deaf and/ or blind white puppies --that would be unacceptable to me. My opinion is that this contributed to the admission of mantle as an acceptable AKC colour, as harl/mantle crosses seem to produce fewer puppies expressing recessives. And a lot of BYBs just breed merles because they like the colour and have tragedies at the end of the day.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Same here. This is why I find the "color politics" illogical to me. These breeders claim to be breeding for improvement yet they still continue to breed "acceptable" colors knowing the possibility of some serious genetic defects.

 

[raechiemay]

That puppy looks like it has some serious jacked up front legs!

 

[Jadotha]

Yep, and these were amongst the only 'public' pics I could find. There are others that are worse from allegedly reputable breeders' websites, but the pics and content are copywrited.

 

[grazefull1]

Yep, and these were amongst the only 'public' pics I could find. There are others that are worse from allegedly reputable breeders' websites, but the pics and content are copywrited.

wow if these r improve breeds y cant these pic b public? i thought they would want to show off there pic of there so called health looking dogs

 

[bellareea320]

Quick question for people who are looking to purchase a puppy what would be the definition of a BYB. So people know certain signs to stay away from. Its a tricky question because these pups actually have AKC papers even though they are false? I know registration is a big part of buying a pup. People feel this certificate protects them some how and it didnt in this case. So I was wondering if we could post some really good signs to look for in a breeder.

Somepeople may think BYB are breeders that are small kennels that only breed occasionally but thats not the case all the time. It might just be waiting for the perfect match to mate. Just because your a bigger breeder doesnt always mean better.

Anybody else?

 

[dsaw247]

I'll share my experience with a BYB, as it might help someone looking for a puppy.

Ww researched EM for a year before getting one, but never actually found/read anything about how to choose a good breeder. We knew very little about reputable breeders vs BYB until I joined this forum. I found Moose in the classified section of the newspaper. I called the breeder, they sent me pictures, information, and then set up a day/time for me to come see the parents and litter. Though we had both grew up with dogs, neither my husband nor myself had picked one out and bought it. I went to the breeder and the kennel set up was very nice. Not only did I meet both of the parents of my pup, but I played with them and was able to spend quality time with them. I met the breeder's family, as all of them helped raise the pups. The breeders have kept in touch with me and are always willing to answer my questions. The litter was the female's second and her last-which was a big requirement for me. Moose is an AKC mastiff, and they're not false papers. I looked up his lines, and they're actually pretty good (of course I know more what to look for in the future). It's important to remember though, a lot of dogs are AKC certified. An AKC certification doesn't mean that the dog is a good example of the breed and should be bred. Back to the breeder, we thought we were doing good. HERE'S THE CATCH. The parents did not have ANY health testings. The puppies did not have a health guarantee. There were no contracts. Sure, the breeders asked me questions about where I lived, my job, if I had owned mastiffs, etc. BUT I really doubt it would have mattered what my answers were, I would have still walked away with my puppy. In the end, they weren't trying to improve the breed. Did they care about their mastiffs? Yes. But were they breeding for the correct reasons? No. After all was said and done, it was about the money.

Now, don't get me wrong. Moose is great and definitely the best dog we have ever owned. I don't regret adding him to our family for a second. We were easily fooled into thinking that we had chosen a great breeder. They were a BYB though. We got lucky. Our mastiff doesn't have health problems or have physical issues that come from BYB. He has a wonderful temperament. Would we ever breed him? Heck no. He's our pet, he doesn't come from the right, quality lines, and I have no knowledge/don't want to get involved with breeding. I can see how one can be easily confused by reputable vs byb if you don't know what to look for. And just for fun, here's my goofball