Opinions on prong training collars?

[ruthcatrin]

It appears that you didn't know how to use a "choke chain", just because it says choke doesn't mean that is what it is supposed to do to the dog. Im sure if you had of been taught how to PROPERLY use one, you wouldn't have had to resort to a prong. I have used a choke chain for 30 years and have never had a dog make a choking sound yet or injured my dogs neck. I would also have to say every pic I look at with dogs wearing prongs, they are all on incorrectly, they are all down around the base of the dogs neck, it should fit very snug up behind the ears. If it is snug enough even with loose skin it should only move down the neck a little. And I would also have to say about 90% of the people using these kind of collars have no idea how to use them either, they go to petsmart or are told by a friend to use one, so they just go get one and put it on the dog with no knowledge and think it is going to solve all their training problems. I do not like prongs as I think they are a lazy mans training tool.

To me what ever collar you decide to use , make sure you know how its suppose to fit and how it works and how to use it by a professional , not a person who THINKS they know how to use one.

Apollo'll pull through a choke, to the point of choking himself, and yes, it was being used correctly because I had the trainer we were working with help me make sure of it. Up snug around top of the neck behind the ears, and yes, on right and not backwards. If a dog is pulling to the point of choking themselves on a flat collar there's a good chance they aren't going to be phased by the pressure of a choke.

I will say that Apollo's prong slides down his neck a bit, I think its cause of the fluff, it means I have to periodically stop and re-adjust it. Annoying, but not the end of the world. I don't actually have to use it that much any more anyway, and most of when I do still use it its as much for me as anything else.

 

[markwaynewolf]

Also, I have a choke collar and have tried it. The reason it doesnt work for me is because Novas head is much bigger than her neck. So to find a collar that fits around her neck it won't fit around her head and same for the opposite.

 

[terzo corso]

If a dog is pulling to the point of choking themselves on a flat collar there's a good chance they aren't going to be phased by the pressure of a choke.

Hey ruthcatrin

Mountainfila really pointed out something important up there. The choke isn't made to actually use pressure.....the thing that gets the dogs attention is the snap.

You are right that they will adjust themselves to get used to steady pressure holding them back, it dosn't phase them, just like it does when it is tethered out.....they just stretch to the end and hold there. Using the Snap to get their attention most often is enough and I agree with Mountainfilas point that most probably won't ever need to move "up" the attention level to a prong from a choke.....if the choke is even needed when a good snap of nylon will work just as well.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Hey ruthcatrin

Mountainfila really pointed out something important up there. The choke isn't made to actually use pressure.....the thing that gets the dogs attention is the snap.

You are right that they will adjust themselves to get used to steady pressure holding them back, it dosn't phase them, just like it does when it is tethered out.....they just stretch to the end and hold there. Using the Snap to get their attention most often is enough and I agree with Mountainfilas point that most probably won't ever need to move "up" the attention level to a prong from a choke.....if the choke is even needed when a good snap of nylon will work just as well.

Ok, first off, if you think a snap of a choke doesn't pressure on a dog's neck you're insane. It is admittedly limited pressure that if done right releases quickly, but it is still pressure.

Just like there are dogs who'll walk right though the zap of an efence while under the right stimulus there are dogs who'll walk right through the snap of a choke when under the right stimulus, just like there are dogs who'll pull right on through a prong. No one collar or training style is perfect for all dogs, and when a dog ignores the snap of the choke collar and keeps on going they ARE going to choke themselves, which at least isn't the case with a flat collar. Just like with any other training tool SOMETIMES thats because the dog wasn't trained right to the tool begin with, and SOMETIMES they can be retrained to make that collar work. But SOMETIMES they can't and a different tool has to be found because each dog is an individual.

 

[DennasMom]

First: I like prongs. They are a great tool, and WHEN USED CORRECTLY can communicate very clearly to a dog when there is pressure on the leash.

Second: When walking Denna, I use a nylon slip lead. Basically a silent choke chain. The chains are just too noisy for me, and look too 'machizmo' for my taste.

Denna will pull on her flat collar. When I put on the slip lead, she pays attention and doesn't pull. When I put on the prong, she flops to the ground and won't move. (I only tried once... she does great on the slip lead, so no need to use the prong.)

Finally: Any collar can cause damage... the video had many problems... the dog was on a prong on a LONG line. That's asking for trouble. He braced himself for impact as the dog had 20+feet of momentum on that long line. VERY BAD!!! on any collar that would have caused damage. A choker or slip lead could have collapsed the dog's trachea. A flat collar might have broken a neck. The prong "only" punctured the neck in places... He should have simply let go and saved both him and the dog a lot of pain. Much easier to go step on the long line after the cat/squirrel/etc. is up a tree than to go see the ER vet.

Each dog is different, and you need to find the tool that you know how to use effectively, and that the dog understands. I've used different tools for different dogs... and different situations, too.

 

[Mag-Pie]

It appears that you didn't know how to use a "choke chain", just because it says choke doesn't mean that is what it is supposed to do to the dog. Im sure if you had of been taught how to PROPERLY use one, you wouldn't have had to resort to a prong. I have used a choke chain for 30 years and have never had a dog make a choking sound yet or injured my dogs neck. I would also have to say every pic I look at with dogs wearing prongs, they are all on incorrectly, they are all down around the base of the dogs neck, it should fit very snug up behind the ears. If it is snug enough even with loose skin it should only move down the neck a little. And I would also have to say about 90% of the people using these kind of collars have no idea how to use them either, they go to petsmart or are told by a friend to use one, so they just go get one and put it on the dog with no knowledge and think it is going to solve all their training problems. I do not like prongs as I think they are a lazy mans training tool.

To me what ever collar you decide to use , make sure you know how its suppose to fit and how it works and how to use it by a professional , not a person who THINKS they know how to use one.

Funny enough I was using the choke chain correctly, even the PRO trainer (who's familiar with large, powerful and aggressive dogs) whom I've hired confirmed it, and saw firsthand how the dog was not phased by it, and how snapping it to get his attention was nearly impossible. And the prong I use now is also fitted and used correctly, and does not hang down… Since the dog I got was a rescue that was going to be put down most likely, since he was aggressive, had no prior training and never been walked, the prong collar seemed the best option at the time to get him out walking properly. The prong may be lazy mans training tool, but it is a training tool nonetheless and has helped, the dog is walking in heel and no longer pulls. Eventually the prong will be phased out completely, since he is going through off leash obedience training now, and is wearing a flat collar during training sessions. I appreciate your concern though, since I also see numerous incorrect uses of various training collars and other tools, I guess everyone thinks they are an expert.

 

[Mag-Pie]

Ok, first off, if you think a snap of a choke doesn't pressure on a dog's neck you're insane. It is admittedly limited pressure that if done right releases quickly, but it is still pressure.

Just like there are dogs who'll walk right though the zap of an efence while under the right stimulus there are dogs who'll walk right through the snap of a choke when under the right stimulus, just like there are dogs who'll pull right on through a prong. No one collar or training style is perfect for all dogs, and when a dog ignores the snap of the choke collar and keeps on going they ARE going to choke themselves, which at least isn't the case with a flat collar. Just like with any other training tool SOMETIMES thats because the dog wasn't trained right to the tool begin with, and SOMETIMES they can be retrained to make that collar work. But SOMETIMES they can't and a different tool has to be found because each dog is an individual.

I agree 100% ^^^

And after all the "schooling" I just got on here I still hate the choke chain respectfully, have also tried the nylon slip lead, and have no problem with using the prong collar (sized and used correctly), EVEN if it is the lazy mans training tool. And since I keep hearing that each dog is different, then I guess it's all right. Cheers!

 

[Hector]

You can always have a double ended leash and hook the longer end to the prong and the shorter end onto a back clip harness. That way if you needed to control the dog on the prong you'd still have that option and the dog won't be pulling on the prong, but the harness.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Honestly I recommend using the prong in combination with a flat collar, every now and then a prong will slip apart, i've never had it happen, but its possible. At least with a coupler. If you can manage it then with a double leash, one for each collar, allwing you to control which one the dog feels pressure on.

 

[Hector]

I still don't really like the idea of just using a prong solely to jog, just sounds like a bad idea. The prong collar is a training collar not a jogging collar, but each to their own.

 

[mountainfila]

This is what i mean about not using a choke chain correctly even though this person calls herself a trainer, even she does not know how to give a proper correction, in turn this person is giving other people the wrong info on how to use one, so you can see how the wrong info can be passed along by people who think they trainers but they are not.

At the 2:30 mark in the video, she shows how to give a correction, that is not a proper correction using a choke collar, all corrections should be to the side, not being yanked backwards. And this is just one video of thousands that say they are pro dog trainers that do not know what they are doing.
[video=youtube_share;A3uAcTgH7vk]http://youtu.be/A3uAcTgH7vk[/video]

And Mag-pie, I wasn't trying to be an asshole to you or anyone else by what I said about not knowing how to use a choke chain, its just when you made the statement about putting a choke chain on and he was choking himself and the collar was useless, it doesn't make sense to me as I been training dogs for a long long time using a choke collar , on multiple breeds and have never had one that was untrainable with it. And don't forget that when you give a correction , you also need to give a verbal command before you give a correction or the dog has no idea what you want from them.

Sometimes its the people that need the training more then the dogs do lol

 

[Hector]

MF I agree, I seen this video before and I'm like hmmm not a very good video lol.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I hate videos like that.....

And Mag-pie, I wasn't trying to be an asshole to you or anyone else by what I said about not knowing how to use a choke chain, its just when you made the statement about putting a choke chain on and he was choking himself and the collar was useless, it doesn't make sense to me as I been training dogs for a long long time using a choke collar , on multiple breeds and have never had one that was untrainable with it. And don't forget that when you give a correction , you also need to give a verbal command before you give a correction or the dog has no idea what you want from them.

Sometimes its the people that need the training more then the dogs do lol

The thing with the choke, if the dog is already out at the end of the leash then snapping it just chokes him more and doesn't tell him a thing. Yes, the whole point is to give the correction BEFORE he gets to the end of the leash, but with the "flat out pullers" (constantly pulling the leash taut, not lunging, just constantly leaning into the collar) the choke is going to do more damage than a flat by the time you get it through the dog's head what you want. Not that a flat collar isn't causing damage to those dogs too, cause it is. Those are the dogs I want to see use a prong, or a head halter, or a no pull harness (depending on dog and owner). Like Magpie's dog, who basically had no leash skills and did nothing but PULL at the end of the leash when she got him. I'm not surprised at all that a choke literally choked him and that snapping it didn't do a thing. NOW that she's got the concepts through to him she might very well be able to go back to a choke and get a perfect response out of it, but everyone's comfortable with the prong so I don't see any point in trying to make her change.

 

[Mag-Pie]

Like Magpie's dog, who basically had no leash skills and did nothing but PULL at the end of the leash when she got him. I'm not surprised at all that a choke literally choked him and that snapping it didn't do a thing. NOW that she's got the concepts through to him she might very well be able to go back to a choke and get a perfect response out of it, but everyone's comfortable with the prong so I don't see any point in trying to make her change.

Thanks ruthcatrin for explaining my issue more clearly, you understand exactly what I was trying to convey, yet unfortunately it made no sense to mountainfila.

Also I am not sure how me stating (on a side note) my personal opinion that "I hate choke chains" in response to what the OP originally said about having 'a choke collar but it doesn't do what he needs it to do', resulted in hijacking of this thread from the OP, and mountainfila's focus on me and my use of the chock chain. I guess it's a controversial topic and emotions run high. Either way, yes, I get it even people who claim they are trainers are incompetent. Since I couldn't find someone like mountainfila with 30 years experience of using the choke chain in my area, I went with the best trainer my money could buy from a company that specializes in family pet training and K-9 police dog training, and has 72 locations in the U.S. Yes, I understand that means nothing, since generally people are incompetent anyways and they can claim anything. And yes, most times it's the people who need the training, and it's not just in dog training. But rest assured I am doing my best to educate myself about EVERYTHING I can possibly think of. And no, I am also not trying to be an asshole. LOL.

 

[mountainfila]

Sorry if you feel I was singling you out, I was just commenting on the statement you made towards the op, its those kind of statements that make the sheeples run for a prong when it is not needed. He stated that his dog is trained pretty well using a choke but a choke is only as good as the person holding the leash and to me if he gave more training he wouldn't need to resort to a prong and he would have a better stronger bond with his dog. I did not hijack the thread, he asked for an opinion on prongs and I gave my opinion, I also gave you a visual that not all trainers are equal . And no it does not make sense because the visual I get from what you said is, you put the leash on and he just bolts to the end of the leash and stays there strangling himself. But whatever the case im glad you found a trainer or many seeing they have 72 locations and that's all I will be commenting about in this thread.

 

[AussieGirl]

I don't use the prong collar but I have done a bit of research on them and they seem like a good training tool when used correctly. I agree with other posts here though that I probably wouldn't use them while running but because it may cause tension on the leash and cause discomfort for the dog even when she is doing the right thing

 

[Mag-Pie]

... I have a choke collar but it doesnt do what I need it to do.

Also, I have a choke collar and have tried it. The reason it doesnt work for me is because Novas head is much bigger than her neck. So to find a collar that fits around her neck it won't fit around her head and same for the opposite.

He stated that his dog is trained pretty well using a choke but a choke is only as good as the person holding the leash and to me if he gave more training he wouldn't need to resort to a prong and he would have a better stronger bond with his dog.

OP please clarify WAS your dog trained using a choke collar OR did it in fact not work for you? I'm confused.

 

[mountainfila]

This is a pic he posted the other day.......it looks like a choker to me and if you look close enough you can see the collar is on incorrectly by the way the ring is pointing up, just showing that he was using a choke, no more comments from me


http://www.mastiff-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45343&d=1408393133

 

[markwaynewolf]

Everyone has an opinion, not everyone will agree. I take advice from all and look into everything. Which is why I ask questions before I purchase or try new methods. I have and typically do use a Choke Collar. Am I using it right? I'm using it the way I was taught, but that could be wrong. Maybe I myself need to learn how to use it properly. However, the way I've been using it I have had much success in training Nova, anywhere from sit to speak to stay to come etc. THE ONLY issue I am concerned about is while walking she does fantastic around the neighborhood and areas she knows well. Once we are in a new area she pulls, nonstop and the snap of the collar doesn't phase her. Also, with the jogging/running, She gets excited and either runs ahead or she stops and lags behind to smell something.. it's hard to give a proper correction while moving faster and it happens in an instant.

Also, if you know how to properly use the Choke Collar let me know since it seems I am not using it right. Maybe that will solve my issue at hand.

FINALLY, we are all here to get sound and positive advice and be friends with common interests in our fur babies. No need for judgement of myself or anyone else. Thank you. That's not why I'm here. I get enough judgement walking my dog because she is "so big" and "looks scary" as I'm sure most of you do.

 

[markwaynewolf]

Also, to clarify when I stated "it doesn't do what I need it to do." I wasn't saying it didn't work prior, I am stating it doesn't do what I need it to do at this point in time. Sorry for the confusion!