Need advice from fila owners... Dogman, ChuckOrlando?

[chuckorlando]

Well I dont have faith in the ckbc at all. I think their rather a joke in regards to alot of breeds. And there is a huge chance things are how they are simply due to dollars. I also dont doubt much of the cafib history. It is what it is. And I have yet to see near as compelling info from ckbc to refute this history. That being said, I just think it's 70yrs to late to go backwrads at this point. There will NEVER not be ckbc Fila's and NEVER not be cafib Fila's. At this point in my mind you simply have two varieties of the same breed. Old verse new neo. American neo verse Italian neo. American verse brasilian.

I certainly aplaud CAFIB and if I thought it was a battle to be won, I would stand behind the movement to clean the breed of any mixed blood. I just dont think it's a battle to be won

That is how I feel. Regardless I know the dog I am getting is a Fila, and I grateful just be able to own such an amazing dog. I don't plan on showing him, nor breeding him.

When it comes to the CAFIB vs CBKC, FCI has chosen CBKC to be it's official registry, for better or worse. CBKC is also the official registry of Brazil. There is obviously a reason for why CBKC is the official registry. From my reading, I believe the CAFIB didn't exist until the 1970's?

 

[Tiger12490]

Well I dont have faith in the ckbc at all. I think their rather a joke in regards to alot of breeds. And there is a huge chance things are how they are simply due to dollars. I also dont doubt much of the cafib history. It is what it is. And I have yet to see near as compelling info from ckbc to refute this history. That being said, I just think it's 70yrs to late to go backwrads at this point. There will NEVER not be ckbc Fila's and NEVER not be cafib Fila's. At this point in my mind you simply have two varieties of the same breed. Old verse new neo. American neo verse Italian neo. American verse brasilian.

I certainly aplaud CAFIB and if I thought it was a battle to be won, I would stand behind the movement to clean the breed of any mixed blood. I just dont think it's a battle to be won

Agreed :thumbup:

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[mountainfila]

KSH...wrong. CAFIB is/was recognized before cbkc as the official holder of stud books (Registry)for the fila Brasileiro breed by the ministry of argriculture of brazil. CAFIB at one point was the ONLY official registry for Brazil for the Fila... bet you didnt hear that bit of truth from from the none CAFIB folks. The person who wrote the standard for cbckc later turned around and said thast he did not know enough about the fila at the time and he is the one who came up with CAFIB after several more years of studying the breed. Remember CAFIB is an organization for the preservation of the breed not the organization to become famous and make money of the dogs... once you get in deep with filas you will notice a HUGE difference between the 2. not only on the way they look but the way that the different kennels conduct themselves...2 different worlds of people with 2 very distinct breeds.

Really Juan??? So were does the BKC fit in there, im pretty sure it was before both and it certainly was not cafib. I dont understand how anyone can write a standard get it accepted and then 40 years later renag it and say oops my bad i didnt know what i was doing, so let me RE-write that. The 2 standards are the same the only difference is the wording and the color DQ. CAFIB is a good after thought but its like throwing a thimble full of water on a raging fire, its a weak effort but has no affect at putting the fire out.

And your saying that CAFIB doesnt make money??? Look at all the evalualtions that have to be done on one dog before it gets approved as well as all the litters the female and male must produce before being approved and those pups must be evaluated as well. What does it cost for an evaluation these days, as well as a litter evaluation?

 

[dogman#1]

ksh, what makes you think that I said anything different then 35 years? how long has cbkc been around? when is it that you thought psc wrote the standard for them?

chuck it is a battle being won. with every eval and show that people attend they get to see over and over that it is working..lets look at EU shall we? EU was where we are at now about 10 yrs ago, mostly mongrels. now with the help of onciero, cafibi and fanciers in spain, czech, poland, holland, germany, italy etc, etc you will see VERY FEW non cafib dogs nowadays. I believe there are only 2 or 3 non cafib breeders in EU (talking about real breeders not BYB) and they have over 60 dogs in their shows (that is 60 filas!) in a place that used to have only 10-15 pure dogs...that is incredible and shows that the cafib way is helping to both educate and preserve.

Mountain, BKC was around before cbkc and not really around anymore from what I know not as an actual registry anyways. many people mistake bkc for cbkc and that is incorrect. where exactly do you get 40 years later? PSC did not write the standard and wait 40 yrs to change it he wrote it and changed soon there after some research. only ONE evaluation gets done to a dog and get this...ready? when we have had shows here in the U.S.A. guess how much we pay to CAFIB? if you guessed ZERO dollars then you are 100% correct! they dont charge us a thing but allow us to raise money for the shows using their logo. our judges dont get paid either! they are not even allowed to accept money they can only get reimbursed for plane fare, lodging and food...now guess how much an fci/cbkc judge gets paid? right there you get to see who is out for money. one is out for the breed and the other only cares about $$$$$. Do you have any idea why there are so few CAFIB pups available in the U.S? because out of a litter of 7 only 2-3 get sold, the rest are given to breeders to continue the work. what you are talking about for litter approvals and such that is only if you are after an actual CAFIB pedigree...I agree with you it is excessive but when you factor in that mixed bred traits dont always pop up then you realize why it is important to do it. Would you rather have Zero control like fci/cbkc or alot of control?

BTW they arent 2 diff variants of the same breed there is one breed and one inconsistent group of dog breeders that are trying to obtain consistency in order to create a breed. when and if that happens cbkc can change the standard AGAIN and have one set look but that isnt the case yet. PSS, did you guys know that the only time an fci/cbkc dog needs to go through a Temp test is when going for its championship? Yep that means that this dog was running around breeding to a bunch of diff bitches and then...what if he fails the tt portion? (it is hard to fail since all the dog has to do is growl a lil) but still what would happen? yep you get 20+ litters out there from a sire with bad or no temp or nervous system... this is why cafib wants an eval first. Onciero took it one step further and actually kicks people out if they breed a dog that is not cafib approved first...Now that is commitment and I wish cbkc did this before and not after all the breedings take place it would do wonders for them

---------- Post added at 03:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 AM ----------

BTW Slim.. a "slit" lip like you mentioned is a fault but not a disqualifying one... all faults can be serious enough to be disqualifying but that wouldv had to be one hell of a slit for that dog to be disqual'd if you ant to see what I would consider to be the absolute most extremely bad lips I have ever see is a dog called Bubba do eshabeta...yikes! I mean the dog is a straight neopolitan mastiff to me but those lips would prob be a disqual by themselves, lol.

 

[dogman#1]

BTW Slim.. a "slit" lip like you mentioned is a fault but not a disqualifying one... all faults can be serious enough to be disqualifying but that wouldv had to be one hell of a slit for that dog to be disqual'd if you ant to see what I would consider to be the absolute most extremely bad lips I have ever see is a dog called Bubba do eshabeta...yikes! I mean the dog is a straight neopolitan mastiff to me but those lips would prob be a disqual by themselves, lol.

 

[kshymkiw]

ksh, what makes you think that I said anything different then 35 years? how long has cbkc been around? when is it that you thought psc wrote the standard for them?

You made it sound like CAFIB was many years older than CBKC. I personally don't know, which is older, that is why I am asking so many questions. This is the same kind of attitude I have always got from CAFIB folks everywhere I have gone and asked questions. They always feel like they have to prove a point. I am just asking, so I can be the most informed about my Fila, and what I am getting.

From what I have read, the first Fila Breed Standard, was written in the 1940's. From what I have also read, the Brazillian Kennel Club (CBKC), which I liken to The American Kennel Club (AKC), is the only recognized registry by the FCI. I would assume the CBKC has been around since the 40's, but I don't know and can't find that information.

What I have always asked the CAFIB people, is if CAFIB is the proper registry, why are they not going to the FCI and asking the FCI to recognize them? Once again I am not being confrontational, I am new to the breed. I am genuinely interested and trying to ask questions and figure everything out.

 

[dogman#1]

KSH, the way you posted it seemed like you were stating a fact and not a question which is why I said you were wrong. sometimes intent is lost on the written word which is probably why you got answers that left a sour taste in your mouth. PSC Paulo Santos Cruz (Father of the breed) was comissioned to write a breed standard about a dog he knew little about. He was told to go to a kennel in Rio (I believe), look at those dogs and write a standard based on them. He did, and went on his way. He fell in love with the information he had heard on the fila and decided to go to the farms in the south to get some first hand knowledge on the breed. He travelled all over and noticed that all the dogs in the farms looked nothing like the dogs he saw earlier. He concluded that the ones he saw earlier were incorrect due what he had learned and explained his findings to the CBKC. CBKC listened and at one point even went to change the standard but the rich breeders said they would leave cbkc and make their own registry if cbkc did that. so cbkc folded on the money side. Why doesnt CAFIB want to be part of FCI? simple! if you become part of fci you have to abide by their rules and not follow the regulations originally set forward. why does the adba not want to be recognized by akc? because it will ruin the breed (APBT). IMO the Cane Corso died along with the decision for them to be accepted by AKC. Remember a fila who is agressive towards a judge at an fci show is DISQUALIFIED!!!!! why the hell would CAFIB want that? do alot of research. if you need to know something ask me and if I dont know I will find you the answer. Knowing is half the battle, GO JOE! lol.

 

[kshymkiw]

KSH, the way you posted it seemed like you were stating a fact and not a question which is why I said you were wrong. sometimes intent is lost on the written word which is probably why you got answers that left a sour taste in your mouth. PSC Paulo Santos Cruz (Father of the breed) was comissioned to write a breed standard about a dog he knew little about. He was told to go to a kennel in Rio (I believe), look at those dogs and write a standard based on them. He did, and went on his way. He fell in love with the information he had heard on the fila and decided to go to the farms in the south to get some first hand knowledge on the breed. He travelled all over and noticed that all the dogs in the farms looked nothing like the dogs he saw earlier. He concluded that the ones he saw earlier were incorrect due what he had learned and explained his findings to the CBKC. CBKC listened and at one point even went to change the standard but the rich breeders said they would leave cbkc and make their own registry if cbkc did that. so cbkc folded on the money side. Why doesnt CAFIB want to be part of FCI? simple! if you become part of fci you have to abide by their rules and not follow the regulations originally set forward. why does the adba not want to be recognized by akc? because it will ruin the breed (APBT). IMO the Cane Corso died along with the decision for them to be accepted by AKC. Remember a fila who is agressive towards a judge at an fci show is DISQUALIFIED!!!!! why the hell would CAFIB want that? do alot of research. if you need to know something ask me and if I dont know I will find you the answer. Knowing is half the battle, GO JOE! lol.

Interesting. Maybe this is lost in writing, but how would the "Father of the breed" as you referred to him know very little about the breed?

 

[dogman#1]

o.k... he was a well respected judge of dogs but knew little oh the fila breed when asked to write the standard...afterwards he becme very familiarwith the breed and presented his findings and wrote numerous articles about the breed. not just reg. articles but very informative and educational articles based on facts that even the non CAFIB crew have not been able to dispell. Some even attempt to follow his teachings as they are so important to the breed even if they do not agree with the CAFIB as a whole.

 

[kshymkiw]

o.k... he was a well respected judge of dogs but knew little oh the fila breed when asked to write the standard...afterwards he becme very familiarwith the breed and presented his findings and wrote numerous articles about the breed. not just reg. articles but very informative and educational articles based on facts that even the non CAFIB crew have not been able to dispell. Some even attempt to follow his teachings as they are so important to the breed even if they do not agree with the CAFIB as a whole.

So why not just go to FCI and say "Hey I messed up the first time, we need to modify the breed standards"? Why create a separate registry, which would only confuse people more and more?

 

[chuckorlando]

They tried that. Money talks. Which is my main aversion to ckbc. Even today you can see dogs from a wide range of looks. Unlike Juan, I dont have a issue with a breed changing with times. But at some point you clearly have more than one animal. If ckbc had it to gether and had a repeatable look, build, temp, what ever I would be cool with that so long as theirs a clear distinction in the title between the two. But so long as you have correct change, they tend to allow anything to be registered. That aint right at all. I dont really like all the test and the like to paper a cafib either. I kinda feel if I buy your fila I should get a fila. Not a bunch of hoops to prove I have a fila. I am, how ever all for hoops on a breeding dog. But a pet, if I buy it I should not have to wonder if I got it.

Look at the neo or any breed now. Once they get in with them groups like akc, they change to what ever the judges want them to be

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I guess that's the thing that bugs me about standards I understand about not wanting extremes and deformities ( although I think it backfired lol) but some of these dog politics are crazy......IMO.

 

[chuckorlando]

Always politics. Even if both sides got together and talked, and had it worked out to a T, the politics would make it crumble

 

[Tiger12490]

Someone always has to be right of course...

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[slim12]

well said...money can ruin a lot of things and dog breeds seem to be much more inclined to a downfall than alot of other things...one thing that happens is that putting the dogs in the mainstream usually drives the price up on the dogs...and then the money trails follow suit....then once the money train is rolling it is damn near impossible to right a sinking ship...it could be done but it deals a healthy blow to the cash flow and that normally stops progress....same can be said about a lot of breeds, clubs, registries and organizations....filas no different...slim12

They tried that. Money talks. Which is my main aversion to ckbc. Even today you can see dogs from a wide range of looks. Unlike Juan, I dont have a issue with a breed changing with times. But at some point you clearly have more than one animal. If ckbc had it to gether and had a repeatable look, build, temp, what ever I would be cool with that so long as theirs a clear distinction in the title between the two. But so long as you have correct change, they tend to allow anything to be registered. That aint right at all. I dont really like all the test and the like to paper a cafib either. I kinda feel if I buy your fila I should get a fila. Not a bunch of hoops to prove I have a fila. I am, how ever all for hoops on a breeding dog. But a pet, if I buy it I should not have to wonder if I got it.

Look at the neo or any breed now. Once they get in with them groups like akc, they change to what ever the judges want them to be

 

[Cody]

Look at the neo or any breed now. Once they get in with them groups like akc, they change to what ever the judges want them to be

Yup! Looking at what they did to the CC with the FCI standard in Europe is horrifying.
The judges picked the boxers, the breeders bred the boxers, the dogs got smaller and smaller... Lack of bone, horrible convergence, or lack of... Neo's became what Neo's now are...
The AKC judges are all over the place, as are the CKC judges.
Dogs that should be pets are winning and being bred. Hell, "respectable" breeders are mating dogs in parking lots at AKC shows. Males being bred 10+ X in a few months before they even hit the age of 2...
It is sickening. I know of a FCI judge who faked pedigrees for some CC so that they could get their 3 gen pedigrees so they could breed the crap out of them. Is all about the money
Is just getting worse for my breed, hate to watch it happen to the Fila!
A breed that I don't know enough about, but have a huge amount of admiration for those trying to keep it pure!
To get this breed accepted by the AKC will destroy it.
I do not trust the FCI as far as I could spit. A corrupt organization out to make some $$$ IMO.
I am glad that the Fila has a group dedicated to it's preservation.
Unfortunately more breeds need that!
Sorry about the rant... Just happens sometimes.

 

[chuckorlando]

Rant on. When your right your right

 

[dogman#1]

lool, we need some "like" buttons on this thing.

 

[aceoutdoor]

Sounds great in theory. The problem is the origins of the Fila are much different than most breeds. And there is no such thing as a "pure" Fila. One can pick the type of Fila they like(and yes there are different types of Filas), create a standard and a club and strive to breed dogs that conform to that standard and try to convince everyone they have the original, pure Fila. Well people who have been in the breed for some time and the few real experts in the breed know that's not the case. Its not cut and dry like that. There are opinions, and then there is reality.

 

[dogman#1]

Ace, that is absolutely incorrect. That is what the mixed back yard breeders have recently been telling their customers, you will never hear that from a well established breeder of Filas (CAFIB or non CAFIB). This new "history" was made up in order to explain the lack of consistency in their lines...I keep saying this but without consistency you do not have a breed...If you do not have a breed then dont sell it as a "fila" sell it as a starting point that it is and explain to people that you are attempting to get consistency and eventually end up with a breed. Filas are not different in how they came to be than most other breeds out there. ALL breeds started somewhere with a lil of this and a lil of that until the desired result kept on consistently producing itself. breeds do not just "POP" up out of nowhere, we create them for our own reasons. What EXACTLY is in them and in what prportions we might never know but the same could be said with any breed. get a bulldog and a terrier and mix them together...do you get a bull terrier? NO! it took years of breeding for specific traits, temp, structure, etc. what the breeders used exactly we will never know. this is why when "Fila breeders" mix EMs with a fila they seem to think that it is not really mixed breeding because the fila has EM in it...REALLY? try and cross a bloodhound, an EM and a bulldog today and tell me you will get anything else other than a mutt... Start with an actual pure fila and you will end up with an actual pure fila too simple. get an apbt mix that with an EB and you will not get a staff bull terrier...