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Need advice from fila owners... Dogman, ChuckOrlando?

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
oh, tiger what I mean by "type" would be like sight hounds, catch dogs, herders, guardians, etc...a type of dog not something to differentiate dogs with slightly different looks within its own breed.
 

aceoutdoor

Well-Known Member
Roberto is a good man. A REAL EXPERT. Here are a few good quotes from him on this subject., rough translation.


"I have seen several threads and have been indifferent, because I follow this same subject over 35 years and never reached a conclusion and certainly we will never arrive. First we do not know the origin of the FILA BRAZIL, all the talk is speculation and achismo, nobody really knows the breeds that went into the generation of the FILA and with what intensity! Let's see, we will rely on the theory that the races which formed the line were the English Bulldog, Mastiff and bloohound, ai some experts say that only inherited the best qualities of these dogs as if you took Pele, Garrincha and Maradona and tirássemos only their qualities and would form perhaps the best player ever seen in the world, friends this is utopia, along with the qualities also has defects, we can not just believe that the queue has inherited the courage of the bulldog, mastiff and the size of the nose of the bloodhound, this is a tremendous mess, Who crossed with who?"

"In my opinion the FIFO is still a dog in training and standard pre-set by the scholars of race have left us a map to get to a place, ie, the default queue.
Any change brings us a result, it was like when you changed the default limiting the white, because white was not a trace of miscegenation, but as a matter of aesthetics as kennels then CRUISE SOUTH BRÃS DOG and he had very white began working their dogs to put them into the pattern that these dogs were limiting now, I'm the creator of more than three decades and I can guarantee that before the dogs were more heterogeneous than today, the problem did not exist before the internet and the pictures were expensive and polaroids of the poor quality of life were different from today's digital and just see the old photos of dogs that were true horror with pig legs, flat or capped top lines, and heads jarretados with insertion of ear alta.etc.
Have you seen any designer to place the photos of your dogs bad? We will work dogs have better temperaments typicality and better and better uprightness, not in place for that matter is MINE. SAO PAULO, GOIÃS, CEARA, BAHIA ETC .. Let's stop to apologize to my right and yours is no good, let's respect to be respected also, what we need rather to creating any aberration is independent of excess or lack."
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
I don't understand the general negative towards breed types. I find it to be unrealistic to have "cookie cutter" dogs, people come in all different shapes sizes, colors, so why put the such restriction on dogs. Another reason I have problems with breed standards, by judging a dog on the "surface" you miss out on the "substance" within. In fact that was a debate about standards in the alpaca community regarding the addition of a standard. While some were in favor others were against it ie limiting gene pools, wool quality, etc the same issues we see in dogs today.

Take these examples of the border collie: The "Barbie/show" collie and the "wolf/coyote" collies, just like people no matter the outside appearance there are still some key traits that would tell a person this is a border collie.

BOB.BIS.24.08.08.jpgHerdmans_Tommy_type_bc.jpgNap_type_bc.jpgNorthumbrian_type_bc.jpgWiston_Cap_type_bc.jpg
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Same with the Koochi there are three types of the same dog. Consistency may be all over the place but its still a Koochi.

Mountain

mountain1.jpgsage-koochee-afghan-dog.jpg

Steppe
Sage_Koochi.jpgsteppe1.jpg

Desert

desert1.jpg
 

Tiger12490

Well-Known Member
My only point is that we own a breed of dog that has been fence less since its conception... just because CAFIB sais they know it all and have papers dated from a long time ago doesn't make it true... why can't they be lying? With these LGD type dogs to say there is only one type that came from it is kinda odd because that would mean everyone got the same components and used the exact amount of each dog in them.... do you really think the Brazilian cowboys cared what percentage of bloodhound was in there dog....doubtful....

Tapd on my skyrocket
 

aceoutdoor

Well-Known Member
For an intelligent person with a strong will who is not easily suckered into adopting someone's opinions as truths it becomes obvious that the CBKC and CAFIB are both full of bull mess. They both have problems with their standard as to color and structure. As for CAFIB there are people who believe 911 was an inside job, and you will never convince them otherwise. They have that same mindset and are determined to go to all neutral forums and find some biters, and they go to CBKC type forums and stir the pot. The divide will never end, and it gets discussed dozens of times a day in several languages every day, thats why I said this is not the place for it. I believe CAFIB dogs are Filas, I just don't care for most, that being said there are a few I like. There dogs are not uniform, and many have withers higher that the croup which is a wrong. CAFIB people scream when they see judges touching Filas, but there are many pictures of dogs from "famous" CAFIB kennels with the judges hands on the dogs like its nothing. The First CAFIB dog I have ever seen was from the kennel that organization just gave a lifetime achievement award and has won many best in show, well let me tell you I was completely disappointed and not just because it was a tiny adult, its behavior was insecure and nervous. Many friends and acquaintances have been underwhelmed by their type as well, people hear all the hype and when they actually observe the dogs it can be a real let down. I know there are dogs of the other type that are awful examples of the breed, and maybe they somehow win some awards also. I realize there are also dogs of this type with weak nerves and they should never be bred. These organizations, both of them are ran by ideological human beings with a distinct agenda. I could care less about either of them, I care about the Filas.
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
DD, great pictures of some great dogs. the difference is there is a set standard for the fila already and there shouldnt be that many variances to it.

Tiger, just because CAFIB breeders breed pure specimens doesnt mean that they can t have faults and they cant be disqual'd because of them. ie. a dog with a straight back or descending top line is wrong, is it a mix? maybe , maybe not but it is still incorrect. the "cowboys" didnt care how much bloodhound may have been in their dogs just like the germans didnt care how much of one breed was over the other in the gsd however only one type arouse because they realized that that type kept consistently working the way they wanted or do you think there was only one creator of every single breed in the world? EVERY working breed came to be in this way with some minor exceptions like the doberman. farm dogs interbreed from every breed but somehow they gained consistency as did the fila (CAFIB anyways).

Someone used people as an example... well, good way of looking at it. If we went to china and saw a person that spoke chinese but had blue eyes and and an afro would you look at that person as just a variant of that race?

Ace, yes an intelligent person can also see all the facts instead of being blind to the other. Everyone in CAFIB started thinking that CBKC was the way to go and after the research was shown and proven we gravitated to the only side that made sense. when only one side has a consistent set and the other is still fighting as to which side is correct. when one side explains their research and the other shows false photos of fake "Dukes with a black dog" with claims that it was a fila (we all saw that pic and when that pic was taken the Duke was actually like 12 yrs old not a grown man with a pipe, lol). I actually "aged" up a pic of an African tribesman with a hyena and posted it on a CBKC forum and people went nuts saying about how great it was to find such a robust old time fila...When they found out that it was actually a hyena they erased the pic and the comments however when I proved that their "duke" picture was not possible they erased my comments and left the pic up...it was fact, I proved it but for some reason they didnt want anyone else to see it.... wonder why? Recently there has been one kennel who wins most of the shows, intanhandu, they have produced some great dogs but they have also produced some crappy dogs. No one has ever said that CAFIB dogs are perfect but no one can say that about any bloodline of any dog breed. Now what can anyone say about what the cbkc president and the fci president said about the filas registered within the cbkc? what can anyone say about borghetto kennels and what they had to say about the mixed breeding and how they sent most of those dogs to the USA? no one will probably say anything because then they would HAVE to admit that recently their dogs were infused with other breeds. why is it so hard to beleive that when a breeder uses another breed it takes years to get consistency back? why is it so hard to see that when another breeder does not the consistency is always there? I gotta go fishing now, see ya laters.... enjoy your corvettes.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
For an intelligent person with a strong will who is not easily suckered into adopting someone's opinions as truths it becomes obvious that the CBKC and CAFIB are both full of bull mess. They both have problems with their standard as to color and structure. As for CAFIB there are people who believe 911 was an inside job, and you will never convince them otherwise. They have that same mindset and are determined to go to all neutral forums and find some biters, and they go to CBKC type forums and stir the pot. The divide will never end, and it gets discussed dozens of times a day in several languages every day, thats why I said this is not the place for it. I believe CAFIB dogs are Filas, I just don't care for most, that being said there are a few I like. There dogs are not uniform, and many have withers higher that the croup which is a wrong. CAFIB people scream when they see judges touching Filas, but there are many pictures of dogs from "famous" CAFIB kennels with the judges hands on the dogs like its nothing. The First CAFIB dog I have ever seen was from the kennel that organization just gave a lifetime achievement award and has won many best in show, well let me tell you I was completely disappointed and not just because it was a tiny adult, its behavior was insecure and nervous. Many friends and acquaintances have been underwhelmed by their type as well, people hear all the hype and when they actually observe the dogs it can be a real let down. I know there are dogs of the other type that are awful examples of the breed, and maybe they somehow win some awards also. I realize there are also dogs of this type with weak nerves and they should never be bred. These organizations, both of them are ran by ideological human beings with a distinct agenda. I could care less about either of them, I care about the Filas.

:thumbsup:

DD, great pictures of some great dogs. the difference is there is a set standard for the fila already and there shouldnt be that many variances to it.

There is a set standard for BC's as well. That's something I can greatly respect about the working BC side is that they do recognize variances.
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
Juan the biggiest issue I see with cafib is their end all be all out look. Their all or nothing out look. In one sentence you admit cafib can, will, and does put out some crap dogs, even ones that could possibly be mixed. Then you beat the " cafib produces consitant" drum. It's a we and them all the time. We do it and they dont.

You say on one hand a mixed dog 40yr ago would not be a mut today. Then say the diff is THEY continue to mix. And then admit some cafibs could be. You say theres no way to breed consitant from a mix, then say it takes years to breed consitant from a mutt.

Now heres my issue with the whole thing. The standard was written and included black because blacks were seen. Later to be deemed dane mixes. Now I'm assuming they were fila/dane mix because there is no way to even confuse the two even for a blind fool. So now we had black mix 40+yr ago and I highly highly doubt he just happened onto the only black mixes in all of brazil. So why is it so far fetched that there is now lines from that orig mix. I lnow I know, they continue to mix. Well thats like saying black folks are gang bangers. Sure theres all the proof in the world some gang bang, but theres no proof they all do. Ok they will throw off faults from the other breed..... Well you just stated that so do cafib "pure breed dogs". If it takes a special judge to tell, well thats hair splitting at it's best. And if even one pup in a litter shows mix, well there all mixed correct? So even if only one pup out of 3000 pups from one line show's mix, that means by proxy, all 3000 were mutts they just happened to hide the faults or lucky to not get them, but same blood as the one who did. And cafid will cull that pup and carry on.

You also admit there was alot of variations in brazil before the standard was set in stone, and cafib picked the best to model the standard from. Who exactly tested that "best" theory? How many variations were tested to determine which was the right one? I understand they have their reasons for things. Like ear length and all that jazz. But back then, amongst the likely thousands of "types" likely "wrong" ones would far far far out weighed the proper ones, how did they pick?
 

Tiger12490

Well-Known Member
I am with chuck I don't understand how people could go to Brazil pick out what they wanted label it the only real fila and made it law that's a little ridiculous.... there are tons of black mutts running around Brazil who said they didn't breed with fila pre 60's did they go to every single farm and check them all... there are differences within the same breed and they don't have to be mixed..... you can't believe anything pure bred registries say... just like politicians...just because cafib had better looking papers with a picture makes it no more true than a non cafib fila....I guarentee there are cbkc fila that are bred to standard and consistency... and I bet there are Brazilian cowboys with fila more real then ours not in some silly standard...

Tapd on my skyrocket
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
"In one sentence you admit cafib can, will, and does put out some crap dogs, even ones that could possibly be mixed." Chuck, No I never said that CAFIB approve mixed bred dogs for breeding I said that they have dogs that fail on faults but they do give initial approval for dogs who then need to prove themselves via breedings in order to get full approval. How can there be anything other than "end all be all" when we talk about pureness? can we allow just a little pureness or just a little mixed bred? The organization of CAFIB is set to promote the preservation of the breed it cannot alter it's stand to allow something other than example of real Fila Brasileiros to breed otherwise they WILL be exactly like the CBKC. I personally like some of the cbkc dogs but that doesnt mean that they are actual filas. the only problem I have with the SOME cbkc breeders is that they fail to inform their prospective buyers that their dogs have recent infusions of other breeds.

"You say on one hand a mixed dog 40yr ago would not be a mut today. Then say the diff is THEY continue to mix. And then admit some cafibs could be. You say theres no way to breed consitant from a mix, then say it takes years to breed consitant from a mutt." Chuck, No I never said that either. please reread what I wrote that during the initial makeup of the breed there were different breeds mixed in....not 40 yrs ago as the breed was already established. Although some did it back then as well what is happening is recent, as in yesterday. No about the time frame... the folks with dalmations were able to add pointers (I think) to strengthen their breed and in a few generations were able to make a consistent dog again...what I was saying was that in 40 years the so called "expert" cbkc breeders have not been able to find consistency with their dogs and the reason is recent infusion of other breeds.

"Now heres my issue with the whole thing. The standard was written and included black because blacks were seen. Later to be deemed dane mixes. Now I'm assuming they were fila/dane mix because there is no way to even confuse the two even for a blind fool" lol, NO! you obviously did not read the original standard and if you did you would realize why black and EVERYTHING was allowed! I will explain; the standard was so vague that pretty much any large dog fit the standard... would you like me to find that original standard and then you will see how this whole mess started?

" I lnow I know, they continue to mix. Well thats like saying black folks are gang bangers. Sure theres all the proof in the world some gang bang, but theres no proof they all do." Umm what? I wont even begin to form an answer to that because it is so not even closely related to what we are talking about. The fact that they continue to mixed breed has been confirmed by the breeders themselves not CAFIB!

" If it takes a special judge to tell, well thats hair splitting at it's best. And if even one pup in a litter shows mix, well there all mixed correct? So even if only one pup out of 3000 pups from one line show's mix, that means by proxy, all 3000 were mutts they just happened to hide the faults or lucky to not get them, but same blood as the one who did. And CAFIB will cull that pup and carry on." Umm, partially true. if a litter is found to be reproved based on mixed breedings then it should be culled but then both the dam and sire will be bred to diff. bitches, sires and see what they throw with them. when they narrow it down to which dog throughs the mixed breeding faults then that dog gets reproved...is it the best way? HELL NO! IMO they should start using DNA testing to sort this shite out instead of adding potentially mixed bred genes from more pups to it but we have to understand that when CAFIB was formed there wasnt any DNA anything let alone affordable for dogs so they are only doing what they can with what they have. Remember you dont need a paper pedigree to get initial approval by CAFIB some of these dogs are found on farms with unknown heritage. if at the time the dog, looks and acts like a fila then it is allowed to breed but if his offspring come out with mixed breeding traits then they and him will be reproved then they will all get cbkc papers and become champions, YAY!

"You also admit there was alot of variations in brazil before the standard was set in stone, and cafib picked the best to model the standard from. Who exactly tested that "best" theory? How many variations were tested to determine which was the right one? I understand they have their reasons for things. Like ear length and all that jazz. But back then, amongst the likely thousands of "types" likely "wrong" ones would far far far out weighed the proper ones, how did they pick? " Chuck, sometimes I think you are reading someone else's posts as I never said 3/4s of the stuff you are saying I said or maybe you are reading into stuff, i dont know. I said that PSC went to a kennel (a=1, ONE, UNO, single, not plural) and wrote a standard based on what he saw at that kennel (no wonder it was so vague) and then he later went to the farms (multiple) in Brazil and saw ONE, not multiple but ONE type in the farms and that is how he knew which one was the correct one... see, once again, consistency eguals breed while no consistency equals mutt.
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
tiger, go to the farms and see which filas these cowboys of yours have... remember these are the same farms in which PSC found the filas to form the standard so good luck with that one as you will come back a CAFIBIAN, lol. If you want pretty papers and dogs that love judges you will find all that at any CBKC/FCI show but do not expect any pretty papers or huge endorsements or anything else from CAFIB or you will be disapointed.
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
I never said you said they approved them to breed. I said you admit cafib puts out some bad dogs that could be mixed.

(Tiger, just because CAFIB breeders breed pure specimens doesnt mean that they can t have faults and they cant be disqual'd because of them. ie. a dog with a straight back or descending top line is wrong, is it a mix? maybe , maybe not}

Thats a copy and paste of your words. Are you not admitting that cafib put out dogs that may throw a fault that could br from mixing?

When I say end all be all I mean you speak in absolutes 90% of the time. Oh we are consistant, THEY are not. Which according to your own statments, you like some non cafib's there for not all of THEY should be included in broad statments.

But after admitting the above you then say "
How can there be anything other than "end all be all" when we talk about pureness? can we allow just a little pureness or just a little mixed bred? it cannot alter it's stand to allow something other than example of real Fila Brasileiros to breed otherwise they WILL be exactly like the CBKC "---- Yes cafib wont let them be breed, but they show up in the litters, you just dont breed them.

(
"You say on one hand a mixed dog 40yr ago would not be a mut today. Then say the diff is THEY continue to mix. And then admit some cafibs could be. You say theres no way to breed consitant from a mix, then say it takes years to breed consitant from a mutt." Chuck, No I never said that either. please reread what I wrote)-------yes some bred with other dogs and so on and we will never know their true genetic makeup but the fact that it happened many years ago does not make them mutts today...get it.............. Sorry, I added the 40yr but you sayed the rest but I got the 40 from here--------
now if for 40 yrs you keep that mix going with good records and the final outcome breeds consistently with the same look , type, structure, temp, etc then sir you have started a new breed.

lol, NO! you obviously did not read the original standard and if you did you would realize why black and EVERYTHING was allowed! I will explain; the standard was so vague that pretty much any large dog fit the standard... would you like me to find that original standard and then you will see how this whole mess started? "You also admit there was alot of variations in brazil before the standard was set in stone, and cafib picked the best to model the standard from. Who exactly tested that "best" theory? How many variations were tested to determine which was the right one? I understand they have their reasons for things. Like ear length and all that jazz. But back then, amongst the likely thousands of "types" likely "wrong" ones would far far far out weighed the proper ones, how did they pick? " Chuck, sometimes I think you are reading someone else's posts as I never said 3/4s of the stuff you are saying I said or maybe you are reading into stuff, i dont know. I said that PSC went to a kennel (a=1, ONE, UNO, single, not plural) and wrote a standard based on what he saw at that kennel (no wonder it was so vague) and then he later went to the farms (multiple) in Brazil and saw ONE, not multiple but ONE type in the farms and that is how he knew which one was the correct one... see, once again, consistency eguals breed while no consistency equals mutt.-------- I'll give you this. I was mistaken. It aint a matter of reading or not reading a standard. I thought he visited multiple kennels.

---------- Post added at 06:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------

" I lnow I know, they continue to mix. Well thats like saying black folks are gang bangers. Sure theres all the proof in the world some gang bang, but theres no proof they all do." Umm what? I wont even begin to form an answer to that because it is so not even closely related to what we are talking about. The fact that they continue to mixed breed has been confirmed by the breeders themselves not CAFIB!

Gang banging black folks was confirmed by gang banging black folks as well. If you have 10 people in a line and 2 of them admit to spitting, does that make all 10 spitters? No.

"You also admit there was alot of variations in brazil before the standard was set in stone, and cafib picked the best to model the standard from. Who exactly tested that "best" theory? How many variations were tested to determine which was the right one? I understand they have their reasons for things. Like ear length and all that jazz. But back then, amongst the likely thousands of "types" likely "wrong" ones would far far far out weighed the proper ones, how did they pick? " Chuck, sometimes I think you are reading someone else's posts as I never said 3/4s of the stuff ----------------You said the standard type was chosen because (they realized that that type kept consistently working the way they wanted) So who was chatged with this task? How did they not just realize this type did what they wanted, but rather how did they figure none other did?

Ni back to the 3000 pups. If you have a line that seems pure, and after 10yrs of breeding all pure pups you get a litter with one throw back. That maybe maybe not mix you talked about earlier. Does that one pup not throw suspesion on the whole line?

I would ventur to say you stated at least 3/4 of what I claimed you did. Now it may not of been meant how I'm taking it. I could very well have a preception issue in the way I read it. But by and large you said it
 
Last edited:

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
" I lnow I know, they continue to mix. Well thats like saying black folks are gang bangers. Sure theres all the proof in the world some gang bang, but theres no proof they all do." Umm what? I wont even begin to form an answer to that because it is so not even closely related to what we are talking about. The fact that they continue to mixed breed has been confirmed by the breeders themselves not CAFIB!

Gang banging black folks was confirmed by gang banging black folks as well. If you have 10 people in a line and 2 of them admit to spitting, does that make all 10 spitters? No.

"You also admit there was alot of variations in brazil before the standard was set in stone, and cafib picked the best to model the standard from. Who exactly tested that "best" theory? How many variations were tested to determine which was the right one? I understand they have their reasons for things. Like ear length and all that jazz. But back then, amongst the likely thousands of "types" likely "wrong" ones would far far far out weighed the proper ones, how did they pick? " Chuck, sometimes I think you are reading someone else's posts as I never said 3/4s of the stuff ----------------You said the standard type was chosen because (they realized that that type kept consistently working the way they wanted) So who was chatged with this task? How did they not just realize this type did what they wanted, but rather how did they figure none other did?

Ni back to the 3000 pups. If you have a line that seems pure, and after 10yrs of breeding all pure pups you get a litter with one throw back. That maybe maybe not mix you talked about earlier. Does that one pup not throw suspesion on the whole line?

I would ventur to say you stated at least 3/4 of what I claimed you did. Now it may not of been meant how I'm taking it. I could very well have a preception issue in the way I read it. But by and large you said it
 

slim12

Well-Known Member
great posts so far..enjoy reading these...both organizations are dead set on their way being the right way...although i do not agree with both, or either conclusively...i do applaud them for their conviction....my only issue is that both groups keep referring to what the dog was XXX amount of years ago...and this is pure and that is not becuase of this and that from XXX amount of years ago....they describe the working abilities of these farm dogs...they were originally mixed with this for that and this other for this purpose....and then both groups damn near come to blows (keyboard blows,LOL) over where a dogs ears end up or whether his tail starts up high or down low....or whether his lips is a U or a split....but there are no real avenues for the dogs to prove themselves in something not as subjective as personal opinion....
i went to one of those hog dog rodeos before they were outlawed...i tried the herding instinct with my female and she just caught the goats by the side of the head...so i set up a trial run and she did the same thing with a feral pig...got a couple of practice runs with her and bought a cut vest...she did just as well on a real life, tusk wielding boar....she had just about got the trailing of a shot deer down...she defended our home....she could be verbally controlled with strangers...when she was in their with the hogs working she could have cared less about the other people around ( i know this is anti-fila speak)...for me, personally, she was more fila than anything i had ever owned or been witnessed to....but to the fila world she was sub-par...and from the standard she was nothing to speak about....she was not a good example to look at....phenotype she was not a breed quality female..not even close...but her gentotype was more of what the original fila was intended to be/used for ....a referred to her as a great dog to own but not a good fila to look at....
 

Tiger12490

Well-Known Member
Slim that's how I see it I like my working dog to work who cares how ugly they are or if there lip is split...its the show dog aspect I understand but these mild very very mild differences seem kinda shifty money making tactic from both ends

Tapd on my skyrocket
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
great posts so far..enjoy reading these...both organizations are dead set on their way being the right way...although i do not agree with both, or either conclusively...i do applaud them for their conviction....my only issue is that both groups keep referring to what the dog was XXX amount of years ago...and this is pure and that is not becuase of this and that from XXX amount of years ago....they describe the working abilities of these farm dogs...they were originally mixed with this for that and this other for this purpose....and then both groups damn near come to blows (keyboard blows,LOL) over where a dogs ears end up or whether his tail starts up high or down low....or whether his lips is a U or a split....but there are no real avenues for the dogs to prove themselves in something not as subjective as personal opinion....
i went to one of those hog dog rodeos before they were outlawed...i tried the herding instinct with my female and she just caught the goats by the side of the head...so i set up a trial run and she did the same thing with a feral pig...got a couple of practice runs with her and bought a cut vest...she did just as well on a real life, tusk wielding boar....she had just about got the trailing of a shot deer down...she defended our home....she could be verbally controlled with strangers...when she was in their with the hogs working she could have cared less about the other people around ( i know this is anti-fila speak)...for me, personally, she was more fila than anything i had ever owned or been witnessed to....but to the fila world she was sub-par...and from the standard she was nothing to speak about....she was not a good example to look at....phenotype she was not a breed quality female..not even close...but her gentotype was more of what the original fila was intended to be/used for ....a referred to her as a great dog to own but not a good fila to look at....

This!

Slim that's how I see it I like my working dog to work who cares how ugly they are or if there lip is split...its the show dog aspect I understand but these mild very very mild differences seem kinda shifty money making tactic from both ends

Tapd on my skyrocket

VERY MUCH THIS!

I think some working breeds clubs could take a hint from the folks the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America, with a more "realistic" standard. The most important trait to them is that the Jack Russell is for most a working dog, appearance to them pales in comparison to a good working dog. Same with the working BC folks. They have dogs that would make a show judge cringe, broken teeth, scars,"improper" ear set, tail, snipe faces, etc. Judging dogs by their appearance has proven time and again to be a down fall in working breeds. No one should be criticized for liking a certain type of dog, the most important aspect one should look for in a breed is their working ability.
 

allsierra123

Well-Known Member
We have been working lilah with the pigs as well. She loves it although she has yet to have actual contact with one. Im all for working them as intended.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
Chuck, "I never said you said they approved them to breed. I said you admit cafib puts out some bad dogs that could be mixed." O.K, yes, that is possible but then they would get reproved unlike the cbkc where they would get a championship...see the difference there?

"When I say end all be all I mean you speak in absolutes 90% of the time. Oh we are consistent, THEY are not. Which according to your own statements, you like some non cafib's there for not all of THEY should be included in broad statments." I swear, I mean no disrespect but when I am talking about dogs NOTHING is 100%..we are talking about living things arent we? this doesnt mean that out of every litter a neo, dane and an em popping up should be o.k and considered normal I am talking about within a litter having some pups with better angulations then others and so forth like that and if that is what you consider to be inconsistent then you cannot consider any breed in the world consistent. Sometimes I dont know what level people are on as far as dogs go so forgive me if I make a statement like "consistent" and someone takes that to mean that they all come out clones as if it were a car assembly line.

"But after admitting the above you then say " How can there be anything other than "end all be all" when we talk about pureness? can we allow just a little pureness or just a little mixed bred? it cannot alter it's stand to allow something other than example of real Fila Brasileiros to breed otherwise they WILL be exactly like the CBKC "---- Yes cafib wont let them be breed, but they show up in the litters, you just dont breed them. " This statement right here shows that you dont understand what CAFIB does so i will explain...you can take ANY dog to a CAFIB show, no pedigree, no anything, it can even be a cbkc champion, CAFIB parents or not, it doesnt matter. the judge will see what its faults are, its movement, its temperament, its nervous system and also see if there are any mixed bred faults. it is given an approval to breed or not, if it breeds its pups will be eval'd if they show no signs of mixed breeding they too will be approved, if not then they are not and scrutiny goes towards the parents.. if you know you mixed bred you wont show the dog and that dog wont get analyzed. CAFIB can care less if you have CAFIB and non CAFIB dogs but if you plan to be a member and breed by their guidlines then you shouldnt breed against it. In onciero (CAFIB in Czech republic) if you breed a dam or sire that has not been approved then you are banned from the club, keeps ya honest dont it?

"Sorry, I added the 40yr but you sayed the rest but I got the 40 from here--------
now if for 40 yrs you keep that mix going with good records and the final outcome breeds consistently with the same look , type, structure, temp, etc then sir you have started a new breed." And that is correct a "NEW" breed not a fila but something else, maybe a cousin or so.

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I'll give you this. I was mistaken. It aint a matter of reading or not reading a standard. I thought he visited multiple kennels." no problem brother.

"Gang banging black folks was confirmed by gang banging black folks as well. If you have 10 people in a line and 2 of them admit to spitting, does that make all 10 spitters? No." No it is not like saying that at all... lets take this shall we: 10 people in a line, 2 admit to spitting but those 2 also said I taught those other 8 to spit, we went around spitting everywhere, the police has photos of all 10 spitting... now does that make all 10 spitters? YES! Sometimes you dont have to admit what is so obvious. see a few admitted to mixed breeding and they admitted to selling dogs that were bred to other XYZ kennels...does XYZ kennels need to confirm that they too mixed bred? NO! it is in the pedigrees, whether they want to tell you (John Q. Public) is a matter of integrity which shows they have very little.

"Ni back to the 3000 pups. If you have a line that seems pure, and after 10yrs of breeding all pure pups you get a litter with one throw back. That maybe maybe not mix you talked about earlier. Does that one pup not throw suspesion on the whole line?" hmm, good question... a throwback to what exactly? This is a good question because we do not know the exact ancestry to the fila so if you believe that it came from EM, EB and bloodhound and it throws a bloodhound "mask" or a kink tail from a bulldog it doesnt nec. mean that they are mixed bred but those dogs are not used anymore... take for example the apbt, they are sometimes born with kinks in their tails, not part of the standard so they are disqual but not mixed either. but if for reason we get a fluffy collie tail on a fila then something is wrong. remember a high earset or tail set are not disqualifications, just faults. depending on how bad the faults are the dog can me disqual'd but this is pretty basic stuff with any breed... anything far off from the standard will weigh more heavily. I hat to pick on Bubba do eshabeta this much but to me, he represents everything that is wrong... look at him and see if he can be a "throwback" or a mix...there is no question that he is a mix and im not a judge, and because he was bred over and over and over, used by multiple breeders then YES! they are all mixed and to say anything different would mean that one is obviously hiding something.

PLEASE READ THIS IF NOTHING ELSE!

Guys, what you fail to realize is that everything about the fila made it possible to work correctly...a split (which is usually exessive lips) is a fault because as the fila goes to grab an animal or a person it would grab its own lips and puncture them (a trait for working), the low earset is for tracking a dog with higher earset will not be as good (a work trait), the tail insertion is formed by the formation and structure of the bones in the rear... a high insertion means short bones which means less long, lean muscle mass in the rear that enables the dog to get his powerful and effortless stride from his rear legs (a huge issue and also a working issue) this also coincides with rear angulation. the fila head is shaped the way is (Pear shaped, broad then narrowing and broadening up again towards the front of the mouth) because it uses the front of the mouth to hold and not the rear molars...too thin up front and it wont have any power, too short and broad and it losses "wind" and will tend to use molars Not great if it was your goat/sheep as it would snap that bone easily. EVERYTHING about the fila must be considered, EVERYTHING because it ALL correlates to how the fila works, moves, etc. by taking something away you lessened its efficiency as a whole. I really do hope you guys understand why it is important to view the overall specimen and not just one aspect because I dont know how much clearer I can be here.
 
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