Cesar Millan: Opinion

[Tiger12490]

I'd love to see him alpha roll Athena, maddie, or Kona because of course all dogs can be made to not be mean lol

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[Geisthexe]

The Alpha Roll was something they use to do in 50s thru early 70s when they would beat dogs down to completely make them submit to the extreme the dog/puppy would urinate on itself. Old ideas like this were stopped bc military, police & other trainers found better ways to train. The old concepts are rarely ever used (only ones that use them feel that bringing bad cruel ways to train are a better way). Trainers found that training dogs to completely want to be with you and work for you have a much more positive outlook in the end. Hence when I talk about focusing with your dog.

Just food for thought

 

[CeeCee]

Thank you for helping me to understand. It all solidifies my belief that relationship is everything.

 

[joshuagough]

So in the case of the wolf.. outside of him kicking the dog, lets say he approaches the other dog. He doesn't kick the wolf, yet it reacts in the same fashion, what would be your next move to 1.) subdue the wolf/dog and 2.) correct the wolf/dogs behavior?

I would have the same reaction as CM to the wolf in the situation I have laid out above, we are saying he brought out the reaction from the wolf due to the kick which I agree is true. However I've seen another dogs/breeds react just the same without being kicked.

@ Cody, CM has used both a alpha roll and kick toward Oprah Winfrey's dog which was a Mastiff. Seen it a few other times in the earlier show's also.. he was able to reform each of these, again I don't agree with the method used but these dogs next option was to be put down.

An "alpha roll" as defined by CM, and unfortunetly alot of other people including some trainers, is to force the dog to submit by putting the dog on his side or back. The concept being that it shows you're in charge and that it relaxes the dog. Now, yes, with SOME temperments it works that way. But like Cody said, there are dogs for whom its a VERY BAD IDEA.

A real alpha roll is done by the submitting dog of its own violation. The "dominate" dog (or person) does NOT in any way force the other dog over. Its an acknowledgement by the submitting dog that "ooops! I didn't mean to!!" and it is done voluntarily.

Forcing a dog to a vunerable physical position like that, is really doing nothing more than showing you're a big bully. With the wrong temperment of dog it becomes a challenge that the dog must meet and beat. With an already fearful dog it can make their fear worse, and even result in fear of the handler/owner who forced them over. When the fearful dog is already showing severe fear aggression doing something that will likely result in the dog becoming fearful of the owner is not a good thing.

Like I stated in my first post SOME of his techniques are usefull with SOME dogs. CeeCee the example you cited is one of the things I don't have a problem with in general. I do however have a HUGE problem with the way CM applies it. Unfortunetly many people view his techniques as the be all and end all of dog training, and have no problem trying to apply the techniques in situations where they're not appropriate.

And frankly I won't ever recommend him because although SOME of his techniques are useful, too many of his episodes show him doing the exact opposite (like with the situation with Holly), and far too people take what they see as the example of how to do things. Add in the blatant abuse, like choking a dog to unconciousness (never mind the blatent mis-use of the choke collar there), and I won't support him.

And frankly, if you need to calm your dog down there are better ways to do it than to show how much of a bully you are, even if the dog allows you to do so.

 

[ruthcatrin]

So in the case of the wolf.. outside of him kicking the dog, lets say he approaches the other dog. He doesn't kick the wolf, yet it reacts in the same fashion, what would be your next move to 1.) subdue the wolf/dog and 2.) correct the wolf/dogs behavior?

I would have the same reaction as CM to the wolf in the situation I have laid out above, we are saying he brought out the reaction from the wolf due to the kick which I agree is true. However I've seen another dogs/breeds react just the same without being kicked.

You've seen dogs turn on their handler just from being walked by another dog? Cause thats what happened, the wolf dog wasn't reacting to the other dog, he was reacting to CM. CM brought that one on himself completely and utterly, he proved to the wolf dog that he was the bigger bully and far more fear-worthy than the other dog, so when he kicked the wolfdog, again, the wolfdog turned on him. Lets simplify it even further. He abused the dog to the point where the dog knew that CM was the cause of his pain and then expected the dog to somehow accept further abuse as a goad and then was unable to handle the dog's reaction to one prod to many. The dog's initial problem was apparently dog aggression (I didn't see this episode, but thats what it looks like in the video), but by the time that clip is over he's got much bigger problems than that....I've never worked with a dog who's been deliberetely abused like that, but I can make suggestions based on what I have worked with, and the first one is to find a different trainer, the 2nd is to toss that choke collar since from this point forward its likely to be a object of fear, which makes it useless as a training tool. This may be a dog where a properly used prong, with the dog properly trained to it BEFORE being exposed to stimuli, might be useful.

 

[Geisthexe]

What you are speaking about can also be trained out (choking/hanging, alpha rolling, kicking etc.) have no place in training.
He could have before taking the Wolf hybrid near the other dog trained the owner/dog to work together, focusing & working thru distractions he would have received a better result in the dogs behavior. But to make his show its much easier to be cruel for viewers to think the dog is vicious. its a shame! Most dog aggressive dogs have a reason to be that way bc of the owner. Not that I am blaming owners bc usually they do not know what they are doing or done.
Some dogs get very territorial and take it to an extreme. Most of the time you remove what they are protecting they calm down.
Kicking the dog in the flank area is again an old method. Even in protection work they use to use that and you'll see old school Schutzhund trainers use it to force a dog into aggression it's called flanking but they do it by grabbing/pinching the area. This area hurts as much as it hurts a girl getting hit in the breast or a boy getting hit in the grown area.
Us as decoys, no longer work the dog in that type is manner but have learned to bring out different drives in dogs by our body language and working the dogs body language they are expressing.
Now a days working a dog in a positive manner helps the dogs desire & confidence to be with you and work for you.

FYI someone posted that trainers are jealous of him. I personally do not care he works with celebrities or makes the money he does. I didn't get into training dogs bc I wanted to be like him, I got into training dogs bc I truly love the passion of watching a dog grow, watching a dog succeeded, and when working with owners/dogs I love watching them grow and bond together.
I rarely ever make statements about Victoria Stilwell (It's me or the dog) or the Justin Silver (Dogs in the City) why bc even though I do not agree with some methods they use I can say I have never heard them being cruel to dogs. I can see if a trainer was jealous they would also pick on them. I know trainers that I listen and learn from that I don't agree with all there methods but I am not jealous of them either, I just take what I've learned stick it in my basket that I liked and use what I didn't like as an example of why this is something I don't like or why it don't work.
So please before you make that statement you should really know trainers that are jealous of the famous world bc most that do this is bc of pure love of the dogs!!!

 

[ruthcatrin]

He could have before taking the Wolf hybrid near the other dog trained the owner/dog to work together, focusing & working thru distractions he would have received a better result in the dogs behavior.

Thats exactly it.

Properly done training wouldn't have resulted in that whole mess because other methods would have been put into place LONG BEFORE the stimuli was applied. And if this was the initial consultation he could have avoided it by simply NOT STOPPING next to the other dog like that. At that point the wolfdog was moving forward untill CM stopped him and allowed him to focus on the other dog. And I highly suspect that if he'd simply started moving again, using a GENTLE tug on the leash and collar, he could have gotten the wolfdog moving again.

 

[Cody]

@ Cody, CM has used both a alpha roll and kick toward Oprah Winfrey's dog which was a Mastiff. Seen it a few other times in the earlier show's also.. he was able to reform each of these, again I don't agree with the method used but these dogs next option was to be put down.

I am going to have to call this one, you have never seen that episode. The main reason I know this is Oprah Winfrey does not have Mastiffs.
She owned/owns Cocker Spaniels and Golden Retrievers, so no, you never saw CM Alpha Roll her Mastiff.
Now if you are referring to the Patti LaBelle Boerboel episode I HIGHLY suggest you watch it again and take a good look at what it happening.
There is NO WAY CM could/would alpha roll that dog, I am not a fan of his but he is not stupid. I would like to see an episode where CM rolls an adult working breed dog, please post a link.
Also I would like to ask you how you know he was able to "reform" these dogs? Because on the show they said he did? What about later?
Cesar Millan is a highly successful multi million dollar franchise, we know what we are told by Cesar Millan that his methods "worked", however do more research and you will find other numbers as well.
There is more research out there disproving his theories and methods then there are supporting. Only they are not neatly wrapped up in a shiny 11 minute clip showing drastic results, with a disclaimer at the bottom.
If it is working for you kudos, I hope that continues when your dog comes of age, usually 2ish.
I personally will not risk the trust and bond I have with my dogs by using those tactics. I prefer to have their respect then the fear of reprisal.

 

[Geisthexe]

i am going to have to call this one, you have never seen that episode. The main reason i know this is oprah winfrey does not have mastiffs.
She owned/owns cocker spaniels and golden retrievers, so no, you never saw cm alpha roll her mastiff.
Now if you are referring to the patti labelle boerboel episode i highly suggest you watch it again and take a good look at what it happening.
There is no way cm could/would alpha roll that dog, i am not a fan of his but he is not stupid. I would like to see an episode where cm rolls an adult working breed dog, please post a link.
Also i would like to ask you how you know he was able to "reform" these dogs? Because on the show they said he did? What about later?
Cesar millan is a highly successful multi million dollar franchise, we know what we are told by cesar millan that his methods "worked", however do more research and you will find other numbers as well.
There is more research out there disproving his theories and methods then there are supporting. Only they are not neatly wrapped up in a shiny 11 minute clip showing drastic results, with a disclaimer at the bottom.
If it is working for you kudos, i hope that continues when your dog comes of age, usually 2ish.
I personally will not risk the trust and bond i have with my dogs by using those tactics. I prefer to have their respect then the fear of reprisal.

couldn't haven't been said better

 

[Cody]

I follow CM techniques and my pup is super obedient. People always ask me how do I do it and I let them know the truth which is CM techniques, patience, consistency and calmness. As far as the pinning or "alpha roll" I simply sit my dog make him go on his side and leave him there, until he relaxes. I don't physically hold him down, I just tell him stay and he does, with no hold down WWE wrestling lol. Once he chills out, I tell him get up, and I walk away from him. Has worked miracles for me. I do it less and less as he grows because he's learning.

I do not follow CM's techniques.
My 3.5 year old Cane Corso is a working therapy dog with children and seniors. I do not hit, kick, tssht, strangle, force down, hold by neck or any other physical correction with her.
If I am upset with her all I do is look at her and she will lay down, of her own accord and roll over. I do not need to say a word, nor do I need to stand over her. That is respect. I have NEVER forced that on her, nor asked/commanded her down as punishment.
My 8 year old son has taught her play dead (bang), head down (to rest her head in his lap), roll over and many more. This done on his own, using praise. He was 6 at the time he started working on training her tricks. She works for him out of love.
He speaks and all dogs in this house jump.
She does not need a leash, her stay is solid, regardless of stimulation. She will do what ever is asked of her because she WANTS to make us happy, not because she is afraid of the correction.
That is what I want with my dogs, the desire to please us, to work for us because that is what they want. These breeds have a huge desire to please, they also are easily offended/hurt.
And too be honest giving people advise to "Alpha roll" their mastiffs is dangerous and irresponsible. Again I have to say read the disclaimer at the bottom of the screen. Unless you are a professional, the best advice to give is seek a trainer.

 

[cwayaustx]

Maybe we can get CM to try an roll Kona or one of Juans Filas??? Id pay money to see that..

 

[Geisthexe]

Hell I'd pay to see him alpha roll my male Malinois 10 month old puppy.... He wouldn't even get the pup on the ground before his arse he was chewed up..

 

[chuckorlando]

Ahhh Cesar, he does seem to be a lighting rod. I've read some of his books and watched his shows. Here's what he's taught me that I use:

1) He talks a lot about being aware of your energy and what energy you're giving to your dog.
2) He also makes us aware of our intention, visualizing, and creating what it is that you want.
3) He reminds us that we need to earn our dogs trust and respect.
4) I use his formula of exercise, discipline (I read this as structure - not punishment), and affection.

If you haven't already, I would encourage you to read some of his books. I would also recommend reading Suzanne Clothier. She has a lot of great articles on her website http://suzanneclothier.com/ - especially the one on Leadership Basics.

1) so he gets down like some kinda ninja in front of some scrawny ass dog after he throat chops them....
2)I dont understand this. If your intent is a well mannered dog, well then there it is
3)So he throat chops a dog then gets down like a ninja? Or after being bit he stands over the dog all tense and shaking...
4)well what your saying and what I just watched, two completely diff things.

My opinion, some of yall must have some super soft ass dogs. I'd pay, yes pay to watch one of you come treat Kona like that. She has all them issues. She'll bite the shit out of every single member on this site. No joke, every one of you. I need the help. HELP ME CM. Come FIX my dog. I'll even let you warm up on my dane so your chest is all puffy. Cause, like some of you it would seem, my dane is soft. I mean if you wanted, you can slap him all over the place. Then when your done beating up on the weak, I got one for you to bully.

I did love when the little turd said he was about to pass out from that little scared dog that bit him. Yes it was scared to death. THE ONLY REASON HE COULD GET AWAY WITH THAT. If that little bite made him weak in the knees, he wont even pass play time round here. I get that every single day playing.

Stop picking on weak scared pups and go find a real beast to push around. Just like a bully picking on the pasty white boy with glasses.

 

[voidecho]

All I was thinking when I was watching the bite video is that I sure as s*** wouldn't have stuck my crotch right in the dogs face after it just bit me. I've grown attached to some things down there.

 

[chuckorlando]

I swear I thought the same thing. ahahahahaha

 

[Geisthexe]

all i was thinking when i was watching the bite video is that i sure as s*** wouldn't have stuck my crotch right in the dogs face after it just bit me. I've grown attached to some things down there.

lmao

 

[cwayaustx]

Could he be shy in the junk dept. maybe? Could definately explain his need to dominate?

 

[joshuagough]

Ive seen a dog react to another dog, attack it. The owner then tried to simply pull the dog back and the dog began attacking the owner still appearing to be in the "attack" state of mind the same fashion as the wolf.

I'm not debating what Cesar did to provoke the dog, just his reacting there after as this is seen in many "red zone" cases. The choker isn't useless in the hands of a well balanced trainer, even if it has been used incorrectly by someone else prior. It does make the work more difficult however.

You've seen dogs turn on their handler just from being walked by another dog? Cause thats what happened, the wolf dog wasn't reacting to the other dog, he was reacting to CM. CM brought that one on himself completely and utterly, he proved to the wolf dog that he was the bigger bully and far more fear-worthy than the other dog, so when he kicked the wolfdog, again, the wolfdog turned on him. Lets simplify it even further. He abused the dog to the point where the dog knew that CM was the cause of his pain and then expected the dog to somehow accept further abuse as a goad and then was unable to handle the dog's reaction to one prod to many. The dog's initial problem was apparently dog aggression (I didn't see this episode, but thats what it looks like in the video), but by the time that clip is over he's got much bigger problems than that....I've never worked with a dog who's been deliberetely abused like that, but I can make suggestions based on what I have worked with, and the first one is to find a different trainer, the 2nd is to toss that choke collar since from this point forward its likely to be a object of fear, which makes it useless as a training tool. This may be a dog where a properly used prong, with the dog properly trained to it BEFORE being exposed to stimuli, might be useful.

 

[ravendarat]

I normally stay out of the CM discussions online because both sides just piss me off. I will say this, some people blindly follow him and seem to think that they can do what he does and have success, as someone said they don't read the warning at the beginning of the show. Thats dangerous. Some people are insanely anti CM and are completely off base with how much they hate the man and some of the "evidence" they post is ridiculous and if they really find this guy cruel than I would tend to say they are the ones who are soft and need thicker skin. I mean the choking the wolf thing, thats bad, Ill agree and I wont try to defend that. The kicking though, are you kidding me? Better than 9/10 I high five people harder than he ever kicks a dog. He's getting their attention, plain and simple. Do I wish he did it differently, ya because you have less control over how hard you hit something with your foot as you do your hand and I think it would be just as easy in many cases to tap the dog on the back than tap it in the side with your foot. But MOST of the time he isn't booting the dog, he's tapping its side and getting its attention. If you don't believe it next time your walking down the street try to swing your foot behind your other leg and tell me how hard you can actually kick, you can't, its stupid. For every example a CM hater can post of how he "Damages and hurts dogs" a CM supporter can post 10 clips where he doesn't.

Is he perfect, of course not. I myself dont use any of his techniques, or if I do its not on purpose by any means. Its not cause I disagree with him, I just have found my own system that works for me. I agree with you that have said that the Alpha roll is dangerous and shouldn't be done, especially to a strange dog cause it could get you seriously hurt, the Fila owner for example thankfully knows that lol. I understand that some trainers hate this guy and feel that everything he does is wrong etc etc etc and thats totally their prerogative and I am sure they have techniques they have learned and worked well for them, but if they cant see ANYTHING he does as being right than I am sorry but I think they are ignorant, and I hate that word as it sounds so negative but I dont have another word for it. No one knows everything, no one I have ever ran into online has been around when he actually works, they only see whats on camera and until you are there to see the entire process start to finish I dont think you have any right to KNOW he is wrong just like any of his supporters dont have any right to KNOW he is 100% correct.

Preconceived notions taint the way you see his actions. Look at the video where one of his employees talks about how CM brings him and his dog into elicit response in some cases. Some of you have said it reprehensible and some of you have said you dont see a problem in it, but I guarantee that that video didnt SWAY anyones opinion. The people who hated him before think its a disgusting display and the people who support him find it completely normal. There was no one in the middle that has now picked a side based on that piece of "evidence" Its all perception.

I know that some of this is gonna get quoted and disagreed with and some of this will get supported and ill respond to all of it, its just how I feel about him. I think he has made mistakes and those mistakes get harped on over and over again. It seems as though no one ever presents a fair and balanced argument for or against this man, its always so one sided either for or against, thats why I normally stay out of it. I dont know why this man is so polarizing but when people seem to be so dead set on being on one side or the other that they stop being subjective it really annoys me.

 

[joshuagough]

Your correct, I just googled https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ahOL5ohc6s this, it was not Oprah it was Patti Labelle we were thinking of. I looked for the video before I posted this thread but can't find it on youtube, nor can I find the 2nd Holly video, none the less.. the episode showed a before and after, along with him alpha rolling or "pinning the dog" as I remember. The youtube portion isn't the complete episode.

When I say reform I mean the dog was placed back in the home and isn't/wasn't reactive to whatver issue they faced. There are many follow ups with his clients and they say the dog is a new creature, maybe Cesar pays them to say this, dunno. As for proving he's right or wrong I'm not much for a pissing contest, what I will say is once a person or company reaches a certain level they become a target.

Typically people that make millions doing something, have a decent product at some point. Might not mean it's a great product but it's working for a good number of people or it wouldn't be sustainable.

I am going to have to call this one, you have never seen that episode. The main reason I know this is Oprah Winfrey does not have Mastiffs.
She owned/owns Cocker Spaniels and Golden Retrievers, so no, you never saw CM Alpha Roll her Mastiff.
Now if you are referring to the Patti LaBelle Boerboel episode I HIGHLY suggest you watch it again and take a good look at what it happening.
There is NO WAY CM could/would alpha roll that dog, I am not a fan of his but he is not stupid. I would like to see an episode where CM rolls an adult working breed dog, please post a link.
Also I would like to ask you how you know he was able to "reform" these dogs? Because on the show they said he did? What about later?
Cesar Millan is a highly successful multi million dollar franchise, we know what we are told by Cesar Millan that his methods "worked", however do more research and you will find other numbers as well.
There is more research out there disproving his theories and methods then there are supporting. Only they are not neatly wrapped up in a shiny 11 minute clip showing drastic results, with a disclaimer at the bottom.
If it is working for you kudos, I hope that continues when your dog comes of age, usually 2ish.
I personally will not risk the trust and bond I have with my dogs by using those tactics. I prefer to have their respect then the fear of reprisal.