friendly guard dog

[chuckorlando]

I sure would DD. But It suspect it would be one of those one session trainings. He turns the corner, she goes at him like a gorilla on meth, he runs back his car. ahahahahaha.

Masteno I know many of fools like that. That old saying "more than one way to skin a cat" comes to mind. I mean that aint to say that there aint some science out there that say's this works faster, slower, or what have you. But if it works for a person, whats it matter.... I know farm dogs aint never been in a house a day in their life, never been trained a day in their life, and it would amaze some folks what they get out of em. In fact my wifes uncle has hound, cur, and a pit that are as wild as it gets far as training goes. Old tink wistles all them boys come running. They bust the gate on the truck and you'll have a hog in 30min. If he points, the dog goes. No doubt this would'nt work for everyone or even him with every dog, but it works now....

I just dont subscribe to the one size fits all. Even in the same realm of discussion. Like guarding. There is no one type dog to fit all us. There is no single way to train it, or no single expectation to be had. 99% of us will never need anything but a show at the front door. Period. Or the look of any of these when outside.

And now that I know what the OP is talking about here... Is there anything wrong with your dog being friendly and still protective to what ever degree? Absolutly not. The problem in that thread was simply the dude who started it. When you try to make others feel like they dont know what there doing, or your better, or like you have done originaly here, and make it seem some of our dog choices are foolish, well it pisses folks off. When you piss folks off who deal with dogs that work of natrual drive, or folks like DD who have a huge respect for those type dogs, it gets rough ahahahaha. Dogs mirror the owners. Rough dogs mean rough owner. Plus, dude was just disrespecting folks I respect. Just like I would in person, Im gonna have their back and I might just be an intentional ass in the process. Cause I own a rough dog. ahahahahahaha

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I sure would DD. But It suspect it would be one of those one session trainings. He turns the corner, she goes at him like a gorilla on meth, he runs back his car. ahahahahaha.

Masteno I know many of fools like that. That old saying "more than one way to skin a cat" comes to mind. I mean that aint to say that there aint some science out there that say's this works faster, slower, or what have you. But if it works for a person, whats it matter.... I know farm dogs aint never been in a house a day in their life, never been trained a day in their life, and it would amaze some folks what they get out of em. In fact my wifes uncle has hound, cur, and a pit that are as wild as it gets far as training goes. Old tink wistles all them boys come running. They bust the gate on the truck and you'll have a hog in 30min. If he points, the dog goes. No doubt this would'nt work for everyone or even him with every dog, but it works now....

I just dont subscribe to the one size fits all. Even in the same realm of discussion. Like guarding. There is no one type dog to fit all us. There is no single way to train it, or no single expectation to be had. 99% of us will never need anything but a show at the front door. Period. Or the look of any of these when outside.

And now that I know what the OP is talking about here... Is there anything wrong with your dog being friendly and still protective to what ever degree? Absolutly not. The problem in that thread was simply the dude who started it. When you try to make others feel like they dont know what there doing, or your better, or like you have done originaly here, and make it seem some of our dog choices are foolish, well it pisses folks off. When you piss folks off who deal with dogs that work of natrual drive, or folks like DD who have a huge respect for those type dogs, it gets rough ahahahaha. Dogs mirror the owners. Rough dogs mean rough owner. Plus, dude was just disrespecting folks I respect. Just like I would in person, Im gonna have their back and I might just be an intentional ass in the process. Cause I own a rough dog. ahahahahahaha

VERY well said!

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I sure would DD. But It suspect it would be one of those one session trainings. He turns the corner, she goes at him like a gorilla on meth, he runs back his car. ahahahahaha.

Masteno I know many of fools like that. That old saying "more than one way to skin a cat" comes to mind. I mean that aint to say that there aint some science out there that say's this works faster, slower, or what have you. But if it works for a person, whats it matter.... I know farm dogs aint never been in a house a day in their life, never been trained a day in their life, and it would amaze some folks what they get out of em. In fact my wifes uncle has hound, cur, and a pit that are as wild as it gets far as training goes. Old tink wistles all them boys come running. They bust the gate on the truck and you'll have a hog in 30min. If he points, the dog goes. No doubt this would'nt work for everyone or even him with every dog, but it works now....

I just dont subscribe to the one size fits all. Even in the same realm of discussion. Like guarding. There is no one type dog to fit all us. There is no single way to train it, or no single expectation to be had. 99% of us will never need anything but a show at the front door. Period. Or the look of any of these when outside.

And now that I know what the OP is talking about here... Is there anything wrong with your dog being friendly and still protective to what ever degree? Absolutly not. The problem in that thread was simply the dude who started it. When you try to make others feel like they dont know what there doing, or your better, or like you have done originaly here, and make it seem some of our dog choices are foolish, well it pisses folks off. When you piss folks off who deal with dogs that work of natrual drive, or folks like DD who have a huge respect for those type dogs, it gets rough ahahahaha. Dogs mirror the owners. Rough dogs mean rough owner. Plus, dude was just disrespecting folks I respect. Just like I would in person, Im gonna have their back and I might just be an intentional ass in the process. Cause I own a rough dog. ahahahahahaha

:thumbsup:

 

[angelbears]

Well said, Chuck!

 

[Geisthexe]

Thanks for a few replies to my questions..
But allow me to say this...
1st when training a dog of ANY breed in protection or a nice guard dog, you do not want to socialize the way you are making a therapy dog. A dog being able to walk thru public is what you are wanting. They really should not be petted to death by strangers. You are taking away from what they are designed for or being trained in.
Teaching them to have a one / off switch aka friend / foe, can extremely go away in what you are wanting the behavior of the dog by to much socialization.

An alert dog is what most common folks get but you can get that in just about every breed out there. If you are looking for a deterrent you are in the right place bc Mollossars are highly scary to a stranger BUT if you have a expert criminal they know to test the dog. Most dogs even Mollossars will allow the stranger in and back out.

About some breeds you mentioned like Filas .. I worked for a vet who trained her Filas in Schutzhund. Great working dogs in the field she trained them very focused and still able to come to work with her to get worked on by the staff.
The one thing I disagree with most of you saying is you can have a well socialized guard dog. In all the years I have been working dogs and decoying. It never works with that socialized of a dog.
Now for Protection sports different story .. Most who get into the sports get into to have a fun thing with there dog and the dogs are highly socialized. Problem is they do not go to the higher status in the sport.

Anyway, thanks again for answering me and I know your gonna rip up what I just posted and that's ok.


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[Rugers-Kris]

I will start by saying that Ruger is NOT trained in anything but Obedience and that was done by me, not a trainer but I think that as far as the "Is it ok" goes...Well, if it is ok with you...Then yeah." I personally don't believe that a very socially friendly dog can be a good Guard or watch dog because friendly dogs are exactly that...Friendly. I guess my biggest thing in this whole post is taking into consideration the "Temperment" of YOUR dog as well as thier breed. I raised APBT's for many years and although, the breed itself have common characteristics, all APBT's are not the same (I have owned then from "PET ME!!" to "Lock me away if you are having company") and that goes for all breeds across the board. When selecting a breed of dog, you should really consider the traits that breed commonly displays and be sure that is what you are looking for and can handle. Training a dog against who they are (Trying to make a Fila a friendly dog) is un-neccessary, IMO. You should be selecting your dog for what you are looking for. Also, you have to look at the breed from "soft-hard".....Ruger is an English Mastiff but it is of a very hard Temp for that breed so if it was important to me to have a super friendly "gentle Giant" (I hate that term), I would find myself in a world of trouble trying to deal with the committment. Trying to force a Guard dog to be like a Lab is unfair to the dog and can make for a dangerous situation. That is just my two cents.

 

[chuckorlando]

Now for Protection sports different story .. Most who get into the sports get into to have a fun thing with there dog and the dogs are highly socialized. Problem is they do not go to the higher status in the sport.

Key word being "sport" Another problem is will the stand in the paint when it's no longer a game... The problem with super social is you take the edge off the dog.

There lots of well trained fila's. But in my mind once you make a dog think about a job it was breed to do instinctively your playing with things I'd rather not. Thats not to say it's wrong. Just not a road I care to travel down with a single fila. Now if I had say 3 of them, I think it would be "fun" to try Schutzhund. But only with one dog. I truely think Schutzhund has some bad ass stuff going on. The control is amazing

 

[ruthcatrin]

I think the problem is we have different definitions of "well socialized", but thats ok. A "well socialized" TM is a dog who's been socialized to the point where the kid barreling out of nowhere to pet the lion-doggy won't get more than a blink, but the drunk swinging a bottle around gets a firm warn off, and if the warn off doesn't take then additional action is taken by the dog. A "well socialized" TM understands the difference.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I do agree with that, Ruth. Ruger isn't friendly but he is socialized and has been from the day I brought him home. He is not, however, friendly. Ruger does no the difference between threat/non threat as far as kid running up and startling him or crazy person approaching. That is why I said socially friendly. I feel that Ruger is very well socialized because he is a guardy not people friendly dog that I can take anywhere and not have him "lose it".

I think the problem is we have different definitions of "well socialized", but thats ok. A "well socialized" TM is a dog who's been socialized to the point where the kid barreling out of nowhere to pet the lion-doggy won't get more than a blink, but the drunk swinging a bottle around gets a firm warn off, and if the warn off doesn't take then additional action is taken by the dog. A "well socialized" TM understands the difference.

 

[ruthcatrin]

There lots of well trained fila's. But in my mind once you make a dog think about a job it was breed to do instinctively your playing with things I'd rather not. Thats not to say it's wrong. Just not a road I care to travel down with a single fila. Now if I had say 3 of them, I think it would be "fun" to try Schutzhund. But only with one dog. I truely think Schutzhund has some bad ass stuff going on. The control is amazing

I still maintain that I wouldn't want to be the trainer tasked with training a Fila in bite work.....well, unless it was my dog, and the rest of the assistants were well known to the dog maybe.....

---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

I do agree with that, Ruth. Ruger isn't friendly but he is socialized and has been from the day I brought him home. He is not, however, friendly. Ruger does no the difference between threat/non threat as far as kid running up and startling him or crazy person approaching. That is why I said socially friendly. I feel that Ruger is very well socialized because he is a guardy not people friendly dog that I can take anywhere and not have him "lose it".

Exactly. See, I don't equate "well socialized" with "friendly with everyone".

 

[ruthcatrin]

I do agree with that, Ruth. Ruger isn't friendly but he is socialized and has been from the day I brought him home. He is not, however, friendly. Ruger does no the difference between threat/non threat as far as kid running up and startling him or crazy person approaching. That is why I said socially friendly. I feel that Ruger is very well socialized because he is a guardy not people friendly dog that I can take anywhere and not have him "lose it".

Exactly. See, I don't equate "well socialized" with "friendly with everyone".

 

[Mojo]

Called that right Mooshi!

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Deb alls good here My thoughts pretty much mirror Chuck's.

My first dane Duke compared to Thor is like night and day. At the time this was well before I got into the dogs or the GM breed for that matter. He was not the "gentle giant" nor was he "lovey" with people. Duke was only like that to his person........me. According to the previous owner he was socialized, which I do believe these people were very dedicated. That saying he would tolerate a certain degree of people. While he ignored most, he was very different when it came to touching. Most women, children, teens, could touch him NOW with men it varied, didn't matter race, or how they looked. His whole body language would change, staring at them, like he meant business, BUT it never escalated beyond that. Despite his "by the textbook" up bringing I think he was more of a "guardian" dog. I wish I had know wonder what he would bite.......

 

[Geisthexe]

We all have our own opinions on all matters. I am coming from a personal protection back ground. Before I really started training my Presas I started studying the thing in was gonna get my dogs into. I also started decoying before I got into the sporting aspect of the protection world. I needed to know what I was dealing with on protection work. I have trained now with 6 famous trainers who don't just train sport but also train Personal Protection. The first thing I was taught was to teach a dog to alert & guard. I found it interesting on how many dogs I could get around bc they only barked, on the home & back out.
Yes all my dogs do sport but they are trained more for personal protection.
I can tell you that Conan guards great in the yard & house but do I think if the bad guy came in would he maybe if my life was being really threatened, I say this bc Conan is very well socialized. He will pretty much allow anyone to touch him. Bc I did like all you talk about and I over socialized him.
Xade on the other hand, I dare a guy to try to get into the yard, house, car or near me. If I do not tell her that person is ok, she goes straight into alert/watch mode. Yes can people touch her yes but ONLY if I say ok. I like her this way. When I go to work at night she goes to work with me, bc I live on the other size of the Mtn from Albuquerque and its dark out here so I feel 100% secure when I come home bc she is right there with me.
This is the difference I am only trying to explain.


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[BradA1878]

I have worked and owned PPDs for years. The very best PPD I've ever owned was also the most socialized. He was initial suspicious of people, but friendly once he got to know them, however he never let his guard down and would engage that person if needed. He also happened to be a Boerboel.

I've also owned working LGD for years, and there are people who say LGD shouldn't be socialized either, yet my LGD worked fine even with lots socialization. Also, I'd like to point out, most of my LGD (Caucasian Ovchakra), who had 100s of hours of socialization, grew to be completely intolerant of strangers. So obviously socialization doesn't override everything.

Socializing your dog only build positive associations with positive things. It helps your dog have better judgment. PPDs work off instinct and are expected to make choices based on the environment. A dog who has not been socialized cannot possibly make good decisions and will most likely be over-stimulated in public - and therefore hyper vigilant or over threshold. That is useless.

I'd also like to point out that a dog can be friendly and suspicious. Suspicion is a key piece of the puzzle. A guard dog w/o suspicion is going to miss the subtle signs of aggression from a potential threat. However a dog with too much suspicion will think everything is a threat.

If you socialize a dog who has a good level of suspicion you do not remove the suspicion from the dog, you simple improve the dog's judgment.

As for the OP, I think it's up to the individual as to if you want your (guard) dog to be "hands off" or friendly. I prefer "hands off" as it takes less risk out of the situation. If I know my dog will want to eat a stranger, I put him away when I invite a stranger over. There's no gray area there.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I think the problem is we have different definitions of "well socialized", but thats ok. A "well socialized" TM is a dog who's been socialized to the point where the kid barreling out of nowhere to pet the lion-doggy won't get more than a blink, but the drunk swinging a bottle around gets a firm warn off, and if the warn off doesn't take then additional action is taken by the dog. A "well socialized" TM understands the difference.

That is Mooshi to a T! Kids can run over and pat her and they get to keep their face, a drunk however had better hope he staggers the right way around us or else he doesnt.

 

[chuckorlando]

I socialized Kona a tine till she started coming into her temp and was just to big to risk. She still gets socialized, but strictly no touch and never inside the strike zone. I could never walk her down main street during a parade period. To much out of my control. But I can walk her across the street and hang out with 5-10 folks in the garage. I can also take her camping and hang out around a camp fire with friends. But I cant take her into the party so to speak. In the garage we would sit basicly at the edge where the doors at and let the others be inside. If she's with me, and I'm cool, she's usually cool. Just lays down and watches. But NO one can get in strike zone becaus just one wrong step, noise, or arm movement and she will bite. When we camp I have her on a run and set my seat at the end of it. So she cant go no more. Then everyone else on the other side of me. Again, she will just lay there. But when camping we keep a good 20ft buffer around a 10ft lead locked on a oak tree. So she gets ger socializing but it's all hands off. There is no "aw, what a pretty girl" Anyone around the dog is told to ignore the dog. Dont even look at her.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I socialized Kona a tine till she started coming into her temp and was just to big to risk. She still gets socialized, but strictly no touch and never inside the strike zone. I could never walk her down main street during a parade period. To much out of my control. But I can walk her across the street and hang out with 5-10 folks in the garage. I can also take her camping and hang out around a camp fire with friends. But I cant take her into the party so to speak. In the garage we would sit basicly at the edge where the doors at and let the others be inside. If she's with me, and I'm cool, she's usually cool. Just lays down and watches. But NO one can get in strike zone becaus just one wrong step, noise, or arm movement and she will bite. When we camp I have her on a run and set my seat at the end of it. So she cant go no more. Then everyone else on the other side of me. Again, she will just lay there. But when camping we keep a good 20ft buffer around a 10ft lead locked on a oak tree. So she gets ger socializing but it's all hands off. There is no "aw, what a pretty girl" Anyone around the dog is told to ignore the dog. Dont even look at her.

And in my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. She is a Fila and acts like a Fila, end of story. You respect her by keeping people out of her face and by not trying to make her something she isnt. Clearly your friends are good with this, they give her space, you still have a social life, all is good. Respect.

 

[chuckorlando]

Funny thing is we have a guy or two is kinda the resident ass hat to everyone else. They can be on 40ft away and she locks on em every time. ahahhahahaha. They have to sit on the other side of the circle. ahahahahahaha. She dont like em

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

And she dont like em for a reason I should think!