Tessa Guarded Me for the 1st Time at 20wks

[Catia]

Tessa guarded me last night.
We were alone in the park at dusk.

Granted it was a tree stump with some leaves piled on it, the wind was blowing & it appeared to move up hill towards us.
It was about 10-15 feet away.



Until now, I had only heard Tessa's puppy play growl that she uses when her toys roll out of her reach & she has to actually *get up*, or if she's under the bed trying to get the cat. (she barely fits now & has to belly scootch & it takes effort). I thought this was the only growl she was capable of, she still has the puppy bark also.

For a split second--I thought someone else's dog came up on us because the growl was SO DEEP & rumbly--I actually froze.
Then I saw her posture. She moved to my side, took a step back, stiffened & did her proud chest out posture & moved forward to her original place with a stiff tail growled & observed.

Those pesky stumps have jumped out at her before in long grassy areas-& on trails-I guess they look like an animal in a stiff frozen attack posture from her perspective--this time she was having none of that!

 

[Kelly]

very cool. you seem to be enjoying her mastiffness.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Good girl Tessa!

Its amazing what that for real GROWL sounds like isn't it?

 

[Catia]

Well I certainly enjoy Tessa no doubt!

I'm a bit concerned about how guardian-ish she will be, I'm a bit out of my league with the whole TM guardian issue especially.

Mastiffs I've experienced previously were EM & not guardy, it was more their size & sound of their bark was a deterrant.

I always forget that Danes are mastiffs, & I've rescued & fostered a few. They were protective but not guardy.

LOL I had a 185 intact male that I rescued out of a bar at 3am when his owner was arrested for manslaughter.
After 2 weeks in my home, he decided he didn't like the way the jerk guy next door talked to me through the fence-
the man would drink in the morning-be loaded by noon--and mouth off to me when his wife wasn't home.

I'm very petite--this dog would gently take me by the back of my belt loop on my jeans & gently pull me away from the fence & stand between the neighbor & I and just stare him down or give him a woof.
But also, on the flip side, my other neighbors 5 yr old grandson used to sneek into my yard & curl up & sleep with this dog. First time I saw that I panicked, couldn't fully see the boy-dog was spooning him with his head over top & legs over LOL-
Couldn't keep this boy out of my yard & his grandmother never supervised him.

Tessa isn't purebred, she's a shelter pooch, & I knew I was getting a rottie mix, but thought rottie/newfie or rottie/retriever--So a rottie with a softer side. I've had rotties & rottie mixes in the past also.

I've never experienced a "primitive" breed that was guardy & am not quite sure what to expect, & was not prepared.

In some ways I like the 'idea' of the guardian aspect, but with some stuff I've read about TM's apparent issues with recall & people warning no off leash & stuff, & the changes that take place around 1-2 yrs, I'm concerned.

There's not much info out there about TM's aside from promoting the guardian aspect, I've been looking hard now.

I'm appalled about the history this breed has had to endure & the abuse they suffered to make them mean in Tibet.
Some of this is still going on today.
In my mind, I thought monks were gentle people. Yes, it seems they worshipped this breed or considered them sacred-but they abused them severely as pups, the history is just heart wrenching.

I have to be honest, I wanted a pooch I could do a lot of off leash stuff with & take with me everywhere. To swim in ponds/lakes/oceans, hang out in the woods or at the dog park, go camping or to outdoor restaurants & hang with other pooch owners & let the pooch be a dog. The social aspect is a huge part of owning a pooch for me. I love to watch them play & romp with other pooches & have some freedom.
This doesn't seem to be the lifestyle that can be done with a TM, due to their guardian instincts. It appears you can socialize them well, but only manage the guardian side, since it is so genetically ingrained, you can never be off your guard yourself. I live in the city, so this will pose other challenges as well.

I want to do everything in my power to not have aggression issues or fear issues with Tessa.

I'm a bit bummed that future plans for what I wanted to do with her may not ever come to fruition & that she won't be able to experience the same freedoms.
It's quite a bit to accept, especially if you'd just never considered this type of pooch in the 1st place.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Invest in a 30 or even 50ft lead (I can get you a link on Amazon if you want, but sometimes you can get them at Petco/Petsmart too), and get her (and you) used to working on it now. Continue to work on off lead work (recall, and anything else you want to be able to do off-lead), she's half rottie no matter what else and its a good skill to have even if you never plan to use it.

I do have to say that many TMs ADORE kids. Certinally not all, they're individuals, but many of them adore kids, or at least have better tolerance than you'd expect out of an "aggressive guardian breed".

Depending on her individual temperment there's no reason why you can't take her to dog friendly resturants and other such places, you just have to keep an eye on her and can't assume that she'll stay by your chair because you asked her too.

She will by far be MUCH happier going with you on trips than getting left with a pet-sitter, but its entirely possible she'd need to be on a lead or tie out rather than trusted to remain with the campsite.

As for the dog-park only time will tell, and it's going to depend on her. Mooshi's Mummy gave you an example of how Moo can be with dogs she doesn't like, but on the other side there's Apollo, for whom the only dogs he doesn't like are the ones who growl (or otherwise threaten) ME. They growl at him and he says "cool! Play?". I might actually be able to take him to the dog park where I so inclined (I don't care for dog parks period, so I've no interest in trying).

There's no way to tell for 100% how guardy she's going to be at this point, but based on your descriptions I don't think she's going to be a very hard tempered pup. Her willingness to greet new people and dogs as you described is a good sign for her future temperment.

The fact that you're raising her in a city environment will help her adapt to it, and learn whats normal and whats not. Mind, you get new neighbors and she's going to take time figuring them out......

 

[Catia]

Any decent TM books you recommend that aren't just about their history?

Meaning books with tips about this breeds quirks & training?

I just keep getting crap while doing online searches-you know 'most expensive dog in the world" & their history & training in Tibet.

Also, I am trying to figure out Tessa's reaction to my 1 kitty. She has been with kitties from the beginning. My male kitty is more interactive with her, as he loves big dogs (hates little ones)& likes rough play, never left my previous 110lb pooch alone.
I want to be sure I am not seeing aggressive behaviors. She didn't show signs of aggression before, could care less about my kittties.
Now there is interest.
Not constant interest, but I'm nervous-

They can sleep in the same room, & Tessa sneaks into bed with me & kitties at night, if Tessa start to try to nose or move kitty, I make her get off the bed.
My boy kitty doesn't back down from her, but Tessa being a pup is clumsy & rough.
I do not leave them unsupervised & kitty always has escape route.

I redirect when she mouths-she appears to be trying to play.
Kitty lays & smacks her when she sticks her face into his fur.

Since Tessa has grown so fast, some things are apperaing different than before.

She is now so much bigger than kitty & when she approaches kitty, not vice versa.
Sometimes it is from the side & she is standing over kitty with her head or mouth atop his head or neck.**** This scares the hell out of me.**** I can't tell if it just looks weird because Tessa is now so much bigger or if there is more to it.

I'm so stressed out about it, I'm trying to learn what to look for with guardian or dominant posturing, I can't tell if this is a playful approach or not. Tessa loves when kitty smacks her, it's like she could go on with it forever.

My last girl wrestled with kitty a LOT kitty always went back for more over & over, so kitty is very dog savvy.

I've never had any issue with a kitty & a pup. I've also never fostered or rescued a pooch that didn't like cats, so I am not sure what to look for.

Tessa doesn't both the other kitty except to sniff, but she also makes no attempt to interact with Tessa.

At my friends house with his 4 cats there is no issue, Tessa sniffs, cats are disinterested & that is that, aside from the hiss or spit because tessa stuck her big nose in their face.

 

[ruthcatrin]

http://www.tibetanmastiffinfo.com/ is one of the better sites. I don't actually know of any books as such that aren't focused on their history. You might look into Akitas (which certinally aren't identical, but are closer among the more common breeds), or Livestock Guardian Breeds in general (including the Pyr, Kuvasz).

Apollo likes to lick the ears of my current cat. He'll walk up to her and nose her and lick her and nose her and lick her till she's soaking wet. He used to be scared of my older cat (who we just put down a couple months ago), she could litterally drive him across the house on sheer force of personality (which looked really funny, she weighed all of 8lbs......), till he discovered she didn't have front claws, then he'd deliberetly entice her to swat him......we'd stop him and eventually he stopped trying and she decided he wasn't a sign of evil after all.

I think what you're seeing is largely play, but that doesn't mean that its appropriate (and yes, at this age she has no stop button so it could be dangerous for kitty), so stopping her and removing her when she does it is the way to handle it. As she outgrows the puppy-ness she'll figure it out, it'll just take time. If she was truely aggressive towards the cat you'd be seeing her actually trying to cause damage, and likely kitty would not be allowing it.

More in a minute.....

 

[ruthcatrin]

*sigh* had to take the dogs out and now I don't remember what else I was going to type.......it'll come back to me eventually.....

 

[Catia]

not to worry, I've lost the ability to hold an intelligent convo online with the constant puppy interruptions.

I'm sure Tessa thinks her name is "no" , "leave it" & "off", she is now napping, outside in the back.

I've listened to her vocalizations during play, & she seems pretty relaxed body wise.
I can't tell much with her odd tail thing going on, but it's not stiff either.
After hearing her "business" growl, the difference is obvious.

Tessa is like jelly to me when I approach to stop or redirect-she's not stiff-if I have to grab her collar or move her away (using two fingers)--she flops over or easily moves.
She is so clumsy right now, not just with kitty but with me also-she doesn't get she can't fit in my lap & she has no problem stepping right on me.

I am thankful she is so layed back & mellow-even her boisterous/rambunctious behavior is pretty mellow, it's just the going over the same thing over & over & over & over again-& yes, she licks kitty too-more now that I have been redirecting her-not as much mouthing-now it's licking. Kitty has long fur, so is cranky about his slobbery mane lol!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Good, she's learning then, but yah, lots and lots and lots of repetition.....I wish I'd taken more notes, I could have given you a better idea as to how long some things took for Apollo. Alot of it is simply puppy, and she'll eventually start to pay attention to what you're telling her and do it less and less. ON the other hand TMs are puppies for a LONG time. And I don't know how the Rottie half will affect that.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I have to be honest, I wanted a pooch I could do a lot of off leash stuff with & take with me everywhere. To swim in ponds/lakes/oceans, hang out in the woods or at the dog park, go camping or to outdoor restaurants & hang with other pooch owners & let the pooch be a dog. The social aspect is a huge part of owning a pooch for me. I love to watch them play & romp with other pooches & have some freedom.
This doesn't seem to be the lifestyle that can be done with a TM, due to their guardian instincts. It appears you can socialize them well, but only manage the guardian side, since it is so genetically ingrained, you can never be off your guard yourself. I live in the city, so this will pose other challenges as well...

Hi Catia...with regard to your ^^ concerns I wanted to let you know that these are things you absolutely can do with your TM. I have done them all with Mooshi and still do. I started training Mooshi to be off lead from a very early age by taking her places that had boundaries, like the local park that is fenced all the way around. This is where she learned her doggy language and social skills without me holding her back, and was a great place to work on her recall outside the home and garden where we used to practice daily. I taught her two types of recall the 'this way' which means follow me and 'come' which means... you guessed it...come to me. Mooshi will be three this July and I still practice or refresh these two commands often, a couple of times a month at least, in the garden. She has been to the beach off lead, ran way ahead of me, played with other dogs and when i shouted 'this way' and walked in the opposite direction she followed. She goes to the woods almost daily as part of her evening walk and is always off lead, she runs ahead or in to the trees but will come when called. Unless a rabbit or deer runs past then she takes off after them and comes back in a few minutes. I am a fan of dog parks and we visit those too, I am always paying attention to her, watching closely and on hand to interact if need be, generally its not needed as she gets bored quickly of other dogs. There has been the odd occassion where she has met a dog she didnt like and a good firm 'LEAVE IT' from me tends to do the trick, if not I grab her oh shit handle aka collar and yank her away. No harm done. I also take her to the pub and outdoor cafes, she is happy to chill and have a drink and beg for some of my lunch. LOL. Yeah these are a breed to be taken seriously but honestly, with some good hard work on recall and leave commands you shouldnt have any problems. Take her camping, take her to the beach, take her everywhere and I can honestly say 9 times out of 10 everything will be fine. But isnt that the same with all dogs? As for guarding that tree stump...Mooshi did the same thing when she was a baby, it make me laugh, and she was off lead at the time. I just kept on walking and eventually she got up the nerve to follow.

 

[Catia]

Thanks for sharing Mooshi's Mummy--I'm just gonna keep working on it.
I let her off leash on trails & she is really good, she does do a lot of running ahead or lagging behind smelling the pee-mail but not too far off to make me nervous-but she's young, so that could be it-I've heard TM's have a tendency to change as they age.

I actually have a nicer time walking her off leash, she is good on a leash but oh man does she take her time & slow, if I drop the leash for a second, she perks up to a trot lol.

She is NOT a long distance runner, she will do a quick sprint-& then slow down. She likes to relax. She is the same at the dog park, she gets a few laps here & there, but nothing like a lab--who will run the length of the whole dog park to get a ball--Tessa says , "nah, let him get it, I'll catch up on the rebound". I can't figure out if she thinks she's above competing with another for the ball, or if she feels she's conserving energy by not having 2 dogs go for it ...

She brought me her ducky & asked me to play today!

 

[ruthcatrin]

She brought me her ducky & asked me to play today!

Awesome!

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

You are a lucky lady...Mooshi doesnt do toy play at all. She will terrorise Bear, she will chase me and nip at my bum (yes I know its a bad habit but it makes me laugh) and thats about your lot for play. And your Tessa sounds like a typical TM - why on earth should they waste their energy when they can get someone else to do their bidding like fetching a ball. They are clever, clever babies, you will see in time, she may not be as lazy as you think but more like clever and cant be arsed! LOL.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Apollo will RARELY play with the Kong Squeeky tennis balls. If he's in the right mood. And even then he almost never asks for it. Not that he fetches the ball.....his prefered game is for us to take the squeeky ball, put it on the ground and squeek it with our foot, and then kick it soccer ball style. He'll go racing after it, and then pretend to bring it back to us....till we go to take it from him then he turns it into a game of keep away. He'll eventually let us have it and we repeat. If both hubby and I are there we'll kicked it back and forth between us (squeeking it every time) till he manages to intercept it. But he doesn't do it often (more as a pup, less and less as he matures).