Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes with it

[BradA1878]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Wow....Brad your response sounded like that guy. Please don't be that guy

I dunno who you're talking about, but if he is anti "pecking order" and against the use of alpha/dominance concepts when managing and training his dogs, then I probably do sound like him. He sounds educated on ethology and dog training, as am I.

You should have specified which "level" you were referring too... Second no one is stating anything about "status." I don't have to swing my nuts around or make noise to call the shots. My dogs and I are a team and as a "team lead" my job is to guide our team to be the best they can be.

The topic of this thread is "Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit" a pecking order is a status-based linear social system. Like the military. So, yes, "status" is relevant to the conversation.

Furthermore, the phrases "alpha", "pack leader", "boss", and "in charge" are phrases used to specify status.


Why do people get so upset about this stuff? It's no religion, it's dog training.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

I dunno who you're talking about, but if he is anti "pecking order" and against the use of alpha/dominance concepts when managing and training his dogs, then I probably do sound like him. He sounds educated on ethology and dog training, as am I.


The topic of this thread is "Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit" a pecking order is a status-based linear social system. Like the military. So, yes, "status" is relevant to the conversation.

Furthermore, the phrases "alpha", "pack leader", "boss", and "in charge" are phrases used to specify status.


Why do people get so upset about this stuff? It's no religion, it's dog training.

Like Ruth says he should be along soon. I have to much respect for you to fall into "that crowd." :lol:

Who's upset??? I think people were confused about your previous statements, before the clarity. I just find it funny how people will make politics out of anything. Working dog world is the same way. Good way to pass the time though.

 

[joshuagough]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Ruth you gotta love Cesar, he love's TB.. see below.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

I didn't realize Cesars hair was that gray...

 

[Catia]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Holy crap the can of worms I opened here just asking a legitimate question.

I really do appreciate the answers from both sides.

I do want to make a point though, as a society, we label things, in order to assign a meaning or to convey a thought onto something intangible.
It is necessary in order to communicate something intangible.

Just like the word "mother" placed before a series of words can have a status, it has extremes, it is a title of sorts-denoting superiority(mother theresa), it can mean family, respect, can be a warm, loving, or even horrid expression of words (mother F-bomb), & it all depends on the meaning assigned, & how well people are communicating.

I don't think there should be such a big deal about anyone taking charge of their pack, or their group, or their family, or whatever term they want to use to describe their relationship with their pets.
At the end of the day, it's a huge a responsibility.
And someone's got to be the leader, the head honcho, the alpha--whatever.
So what if some people want to derive some self worth from it.

I admit, I do derive a certain feeling of self worth or pride or warm fuzzies from my interactions with my pooch.
There's nothing wrong with that-if people didn't-they'd likely not have pets.

If she behaves in public & get compliments, I want some bragging rights-I put the time in--so why not?
I am the leader of my pack.
So I may be the alpha, leader,master--whatever

I've also been know to say "come to mummy" or "napster time with mummy" so yeah, I guess I'm one of those types...

Someone actually once said to me "your not that dogs mother" & I said "wanna bet?" LOL

I'm not trying to make a pissing contest of who's method is right or wrong-I'm just trying to understand BOTH & come to my own informed conclusion.

 

[bullyhillmama]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Long story short, you do what works, within the confines of humane behavior. The dog end has been beaten like a dead horse, bit look at it as a parent... I choose to be a peaceful parent. I avoid shouting, in our home we do not hit or spank. But.. as a peaceful parent, I have one side and all their "research" telling me that enforcing time outs is akin to abuse. I'm somehow damaging my child by sending her to the corner. The other side says that time out is fine, and good. My oldest kid? Pfft... I thought I was a peaceful, tree hugging, child rearing genius! I was so kind and loving and she was PERFECT! enter kiddo#2 and all the fun acronyms after her name. She needs time outs. In fact, she can be really difficult, and the other day spent 3 whole hours in her room on punishment. Yep, I said punishment. Shame on me to think that hitting her sister for no reason warranted an unpleasant consequence. I think many peaceful moms would call me abusive. Yep. I suck. But you know what? It worked. My 5 year old, despite he behavioral challenges,does not call the shots. Dogs are not kids and voce versa, but the prevailing theme is you do what works. I can't tell you how many dogs I've owned, and all needed an alpha, a strong, sure, decisive mom. Different corrections and different handling for each. Nothing cruel. this isn't rocket science, here... science, whatever, research.... if you have successfully lived with many dogs, you're doing something right. No study or celebrity can show you.. if your home is happy and generally peaceful, you've got it nailed.

 

[Tiger12490]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Catia dont worry about starting debates, we love them! Hell we all agree most of the time nice when we have something to go over.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

 

[NeSaxena]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Thought I'd join the party after lurking around a bit... I'm the alpha in my house, doesn't matter the species. But for me, being alpha doesn't mean you're being bossy - I get down on the floor and play with Boone all the time. But when I tell him to do something, it gets done. I will not tolerate no for an answer, though I'm open to a reasonable conversation. Once in a while, if I ask Boone what he wants to eat and he does not want chicken, I will not force it down his throat (yeah, he's a talker). I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm alpha because I don't want anyone to get hurt in any way (including me). I need to be an effective leader to make everyone happy. My method is not entirely "my way or the highway", it's more of a "my way is better and full of good stuff", unless you can convince me otherwise

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Catia dont worry about starting debates, we love them! Hell we all agree most of the time nice when we have something to go over.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

Yeap, you should check out the Fila threads, this is nothing compared to them. :lol:

 

[kbuchanan66]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

DD is sooo right. This is warm and fuzzy compared to the Fila threads lol. I lurk in them but I do not say a word. It is amusing though lol.

 

[DennasMom]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Yeah - this is a good one!

I was going to say, just call me "Mom" (my only kids are of the furry variety) - but I think NeSaxena put it very well: "my way is better and full of good stuff", unless you can convince me otherwise


What I find of interest, is the best behaved dogs are often the ones left more to their own devices - with less overbearing owners or "hand-holding"... like farm dogs - free to roam the ranch and take care of business the way they see fit. Very 'balanced' and stable dogs (from the ones I've seen and met, anyway). Of course, they may be a total handful when taken away from home or to the vet, but in their own space they seem to know just what to do without a lot of owner-intervention (i.e. obedience training). Could be some good breeding involved, too.

We live in suburbia, so our dogs don't have much of a "work" life... We do training classes for fun, and while I expect to be obeyed (as any Mom should), I also listen to my dogs, in case they want to "convince me otherwise".

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Hmmm this is interesting and makes me wonder how I would be categorised...for example: Tuesday evening Bear (akita) goes for his pets as therapy visit. My family were sitting on the patio eating fish and chips, and Bear was hanging around hoping for scraps (hanging around in the back ground). I told Bear to come in and get his collar on, he ignored me so I told him again, he ignored me. So out I went, grabbed him by the scruff (not hard), dragged his butt in the house and gave him a little swat on the bum for good measure. I DID NOT HIT HIM!! It was literally a light swat so that he knew 100% I was not messing around. You do not ignore me and when I ask you to come you do it, regardless of what else he may think is better, what I say goes.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Hmmm this is interesting and makes me wonder how I would be categorised...for example: Tuesday evening Bear (akita) goes for his pets as therapy visit. My family were sitting on the patio eating fish and chips, and Bear was hanging around hoping for scraps (hanging around in the back ground). I told Bear to come in and get his collar on, he ignored me so I told him again, he ignored me. So out I went, grabbed him by the scruff (not hard), dragged his butt in the house and gave him a little swat on the bum for good measure. I DID NOT HIT HIM!! It was literally a light swat so that he knew 100% I was not messing around. You do not ignore me and when I ask you to come you do it, regardless of what else he may think is better, what I say goes.

A tyrant. :lol:

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Yeah Ill give ya that one DD.

 

[Tiger12490]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Hmmm this is interesting and makes me wonder how I would be categorised...for example: Tuesday evening Bear (akita) goes for his pets as therapy visit. My family were sitting on the patio eating fish and chips, and Bear was hanging around hoping for scraps (hanging around in the back ground). I told Bear to come in and get his collar on, he ignored me so I told him again, he ignored me. So out I went, grabbed him by the scruff (not hard), dragged his butt in the house and gave him a little swat on the bum for good measure. I DID NOT HIT HIM!! It was literally a light swat so that he knew 100% I was not messing around. You do not ignore me and when I ask you to come you do it, regardless of what else he may think is better, what I say goes.

Theres not alot u get swatted for in my house, dogs will be dogs right? But blatantly ignoring me is a quick way to get dragged, bitched at and swatted aswell... but I wouldn't treat my son any different...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

I hear ya Tiger! I'll ask you one, twice and by number 3 you had better get your butt moving a friggen quick!

 

[angelbears]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Hmmm this is interesting and makes me wonder how I would be categorised...for example: Tuesday evening Bear (akita) goes for his pets as therapy visit. My family were sitting on the patio eating fish and chips, and Bear was hanging around hoping for scraps (hanging around in the back ground). I told Bear to come in and get his collar on, he ignored me so I told him again, he ignored me. So out I went, grabbed him by the scruff (not hard), dragged his butt in the house and gave him a little swat on the bum for good measure. I DID NOT HIT HIM!! It was literally a light swat so that he knew 100% I was not messing around. You do not ignore me and when I ask you to come you do it, regardless of what else he may think is better, what I say goes.

I wish I was Bear!!!

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Me too baby!

 

[BradA1878]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Hmmm this is interesting and makes me wonder how I would be categorised...for example: Tuesday evening Bear (akita) goes for his pets as therapy visit. My family were sitting on the patio eating fish and chips, and Bear was hanging around hoping for scraps (hanging around in the back ground). I told Bear to come in and get his collar on, he ignored me so I told him again, he ignored me. So out I went, grabbed him by the scruff (not hard), dragged his butt in the house and gave him a little swat on the bum for good measure. I DID NOT HIT HIM!! It was literally a light swat so that he knew 100% I was not messing around. You do not ignore me and when I ask you to come you do it, regardless of what else he may think is better, what I say goes.

I know you guys are excited to hear my POV on this. lol

Here is the deal, with the story above, I'd like to point out why this is an ineffective correction...

I told Bear to come in and get his collar on, he ignored me so I told him again, he ignored me. So out I went, grabbed him by the scruff (not hard), dragged his butt in the house and gave him a little swat on the bum for good measure.

In order for a correction to be effective, without a conditioned bridge, you need to give that correction within 3 seconds of the dog's behavior. By the time you dragged him to house, he had already lost the understanding of *why* you were dragging him and he certainly didn't understand the point of the butt-swat. Instead you probably just taught him that when you grab his collar and drag him, you end that behavior with a butt-swat.

For a correction to be effective, it needs to be immediate and harsh enough to where the dog will not try the behavior again - the correction needs to be so harsh that the dog reconsiders that behavior before he performs it again for fear of the correction.

This is why so many people screw up using punishment. Typically we reduce the intensity of the punishment the more we perform it, as we are not fully committed to the end result. If you plan to use punishment on your dog, it needs to be done with an escalating intensity and with impeccable timing, otherwise you just look like a crazy person to your dog (oh, here comes that crazy person who drags me by my collar then taps me on the butt for no reason at all - or - here comes that person who grabs me a rubs my face in my own waste for no reason at all).

 

[NeSaxena]

Re: Questions about Pecking Order & new schools of thought & the jargon that goes wit

Reduce intensity of punishment? I don't get that. If Boone messes up small or starts a new irritating behavior, he's told a firm No (with the act in process) and then he gets ignored. No treats, no play, no swat, nothing. 99%, he doesn't do it again (he's a dream to train). The 1% that the behavior does repeat, he gets a time out in addition to the ignoring. Never happens again. He's the known the difference between right and wrong since day 1 and he knows what will get him in trouble and what "mama will be okay to let go of".