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Need some guidance, my heart is breaking!!!!

season

Well-Known Member
All dogs are worth saving. Yes, it's bitten. Yes it's sad. But there are trainers out there who can help this dog and have helped dogs just like this. Jeff Gellman and Sean O'Shea are two that come to mind. They take dogs that other "trainers" say need to be put down and rehabilitate them. It can be done.


"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday."
- Miyamoto Musashi
 

Joao M

Well-Known Member
This is a sad story. I also agree with Hiraeth.
The only other option I would consider was to rehome to a farm with no children.
I had a similiar story I may share.
My ex-wife bought a wire haired dachsund a few years ago.
She loves dogs is used to them and knows how to treat and teach them (her father used to breed Newoundlands 30 years ago). But this small dog had serious issues. It seemed to be bipolar to be honest, because it changed entirely its mood without warning from very sweet to very agressive... One day in a change of mood it bit 1 of my sons (11 y.o. at the time) when they were playing. Not a big bite, but def a bite. I month later it bit my other son (14 at the time) wihtout warning when he was cuddling it. This time in a split second it bit 3 times our of nothing, ripped his shorts and drew blood in the leg. After that it had to go, but we couldn´t just send him to someone else and forget about the problems.
We were talking euthanazia with the vet when and a friend contact us and said he knew someone who had a pack of these dogs used to track wild boars (they are very good at it). We talked with the gentleman, explained the situation and sent him the dog. The dog adjusted well to the pack and lives nowadays in a farm as a "hunter".
This was a small dog but nevertheless able to cause damage to children. Odin is much bigger and powerful
At this point the most important thing is not to find out why the problem exists (don´t beat yourself), but to deal with it the best you can.
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
Personally if this was my dog, it'd be PTS, but I hope the dog ends up in the right hands and can have a full life. Good luck to all involved.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
All dogs are worth saving. Yes, it's bitten. Yes it's sad. But there are trainers out there who can help this dog and have helped dogs just like this. Jeff Gellman and Sean O'Shea are two that come to mind. They take dogs that other "trainers" say need to be put down and rehabilitate them. It can be done.

I agree with this, all dogs are worth saving. This is why I myself have taken on four very large severely resource aggressive, dog aggressive, human aggressive and child aggressive dogs. They are "rehabbed" in that they are all able to live under one roof, they haven't had a fight in years and I haven't been bitten since breaking up a fight several years back. But it's not fun work. You can never consider a dog truly "rehabbed", in my opinion. It's much like alcoholism - I was an alcoholic in my early 20s, and I don't drink that much anymore, but I still am and always will be a recovering alcoholic. Odin is and will always need to be considered a child aggressive dog.

So, all dogs are worth saving with a caveat - in an idealistic world in which these very few trainers who are willing to take on these cases are free to rehabilitate as many dogs as possible. But they simply aren't.

Time is a currency in the shelter and foster world. They don't have enough of it, between overwhelmed volunteers with real families and real lives and too many dogs in the system. Specialty trainers who deal with HA dogs are also swamped with cases.

*IF* OP can get Odin homed with a trainer who has no children and who has dealt with child aggression before and will KEEP Odin for the rest of his life, then that would be wonderful and I would feel like that would be responsible re-homing.

Two weeks of intense training and then being back in an environment with kids is an unacceptable risk, in my opinion. We recently had this discussion in another community I am involved in, and someone's family member had a GSD who nipped their child, they sent the GSD to a strict training camp, they worked with the trainer and then the dog came back home. Several months later, the boy was in the hospital needing over 30 stitches and reconstructive surgery on his face. They put the dog to sleep shortly after.

I feel horribly for OP and her family. I also feel horribly for Odin. Right now, he is an unstable dog in a traumatic and unstable situation, he has no idea where his people are or why he's not at home. If it was 3-4 years ago, I'd be offering to take him and work with him, honestly. But I think people like me, with the willingness and experience to take on a child aggressive dog, are not easy to find. And even if you find one, their homes are usually full (like mine is right now) with dogs who have similar stories to Odin.

Again, OP, these are just my opinions and experiences. You should make the choice that is right for you, while considering the safety and health of anyone Odin will come in contact with in the future when he is no longer under your watch.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I don't think we have enough information to say whether the dog had proper training or not. I also think all dogs deserve a chance, but I think the availability of trainers to handle an issue like this are few and far between. And it's also worth considering that rehoming a smaller dog with aggression issues is not in the same ballpark as rehoming a mastiff. Size does make a difference.

Personal opinions aside, I will tell you what my answer to an owner looking to place a dog with this history in rescue would have been when I was an evaluator. I would have requested that a full vet work up be done, including full blood panel and Thyroid Profile 5 (evaluated by Jean Dodds). I would have waited to make a decision based on the results of the test. It the tests came back clean, then I would have had no choice but to refuse to take the dog into rescue. If the tests showed something then I would have had to argue my point with my higher-ups for the dog to have even a remote chance of being accepted into rescue. And I do mean remote. A bite history is a bite history and it must be disclosed to all potential adopters. Biting a child is a huge deal. Huge. If the breeder was unwilling to take the dog back, then I would probably have advised to humanely euthanize. That is one of the most painful and difficult things to have to tell someone and it's never suggested lightly.

From personal experience, rehabilitating a dog that attacks with such aggression is no easy feat. It takes constant vigilance and management to keep everyone safe. Attention can't be diverted for one second, because if something happens in that one second it's your fault. And let's face it - things happen, particularly when children are involved. People get distracted or complacent, it's just life. I had a dog with a seizure disorder due to a benign brain tumor. We found out after my young daughter was bitten in the face, just below the eye. The only sign that she was having small seizures was a flicking of her eyes and her lunging and snapping. She was upredictable. I spent seven years managing her to keep everyone safe. And I'm sorry to say that as much as I loved her, I felt a huge measure of relief when she passed. I had two choices with her - manage or euthanize. Sometimes I wonder if I chose the right path with her because she did have to be so strictly managed.

I think it would be the height of irresponsibility to place a dog that has gone for a child twice, bitten a child, and likely would have done worse if not restrained. I'm not saying you are planning to do that, OP, just making a general statement. If one has never lived with a dog that attacks unprovoked (we assume) and unpredictably, then you don't know the stress it puts the entire family - dog included - under. My marriage went through a difficult time when I chose to keep my dog. It wasn't fun.

OP, I hope your daughter is doing okay both physically and emotionally. I know how heartbroken you must be. I would do a vet work up because I think Odin deserves it. And then you have to do what you feel is the right thing to do. Please let us know how you, the family, and Odin are doing.
 

angelbears

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, unless Odin can get into a highly specialized rescue dealing with aggression. He needs to be put to sleep. I went back and read an older post where he attacked another dog in the household. Odin is not only Ha but Da

I need help!!!! - Mastiff Forum!!!!
 

OdinBB

Well-Known Member
Yes, not long after we got Odin there has been some aggression issues, I am able to overlook dog aggression but human and children aggression I am not. I have been thinking about this all day and I agree with the majority of the posts here, I do not feel comfortable allowing a rescue to take him IF a rescue would take him. I do not want to risk someone getting seriously injured, I wouldn't be able to live with myself, every dog bite story I read that involves a mastiff breed I will wonder if it is him. He is at the humane society right now, I haven't given up my rights and I don't plan too, I am going to try to get in touch with his breeder and if she is unwilling to take him I think I will put him to sleep. If that is the case I will pick him up and he will finish his time here at home with his family. I will take the proper precaution and will not allow him around my children. That way he can be calm and be around his family he loves and trust. I would only allow him in his kennel or in the back yard and when I take him from his kennel to the back yard my children will be in their bedrooms with the door shut while I walk him to our fenced in back yard. I can play with him and give him the best last few days as I possibly can. I owe that to him, he is so stressed out now and I can't even go see him to help with his stress and anxiety. If euthanizing him is what needs to be done I will be in the room with him. I will not allow him to go through this alone with a bunch of strangers. Thank you everyone for your input I do appreciate it. This is a horrible situation and I have to make an extremely tough decision while keeping Odin and the potential people he will encounter in his life. I do think every dog deserves a second chance, though with his history I can say this is not the first time he showed aggression with another chance. The first was with my Chief and second is with my daughter yesterday morning, I don't hold the bone incident against him, I should have never allowed her near him with the bone. And it was more of an instinctual reaction opposed to an act of aggression. I have been spending the majority of my day thinking about all of the incidents we had with Odin and another one involving my daughter comes to mind. Several months back my daughter and Odin where playing behind the couch for just a a minute or two, I told her to get off the floor with him and she stood up crying. That time Odin did something to where he broke the skin on her forehead. I did not see it but she said he bit her while they were playing. She said he didn't show his teeth or growl, I didn't see it so I can't say if it was accidental or what. I hate this, I just hope and pray his breeder is willing to take him, he is unaltered so that will give him a better chance at living out his life with her. She has a big farm type place and the bigger breeds are not in with the family as much or at least that I am aware of. From what I can remember there are only adults that care for the bigger breeds. I will ask her those questions when she calls me back. Thanks again for the advice and if there is more I am open to listen. Midwest Mastiff is the rescue I contacted in IL, I also contacted Big Dog Huge Paws, they come up here to NE the second Saturday of each month. Again, I am not sure if a rescue is the way to go, it will be very challenging to find a foster with no children and if they do there is still a chance he gets lose or a child comes up to him. I just don't know if could risk it.
 

OdinBB

Well-Known Member
He is stuck at the shelter until Monday, hopefully the breeder contacts me back by then, I will keep everyone informed.
 

DMikeM

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to bother with the euthanizing the dog posts just yet. I would have a thyroid and health check done immediately. Something is missing from this story and i hope it turns out better for the dog as he does not deserve a death sentence without being tested. There are ranchers and security people that would be happy to have a 2 year old Boerboel. If he is not sick or injured he can still be trained for the proper environment. I am sorry for what you are going through and know it must be hard. Remember the dog that attacked me last year that was PTS? Well I still feel he should not have been killed. I forget what kennel Odin comes from, do you know if any of their other dogs have exhibited and odd aggression?
 

OdinBB

Well-Known Member
I asked the person in charge of the dogs medical at the humane society about running blood work on him, she said they are not allowed to do it. She is going to see if his vet can go in and take the needed samples but right now Odin isn't letting anyone near him. His breeder contacted me and she has not heard anything about any of her dogs becoming aggressive or having medical issues. She is also looking into finding a place for him. She knows other breeders and trainers that are experienced with boerboels. Someone from a boreboel rescue contacted me this evening too, the Big dog huge paws contacted her, she is also trying to find someone, the only kicker is that she is in Pennsylvania. I explained everything from Chief to what happened this past Thursday. I also said if she does find someone they have to be experienced with aggressive boerboels and there has to be no way he can come in contact with children. I can't just let him go to anyone. I hope his breeder can take him, she was talking about no one will transport an aggressive dog so Monday I am going to contact the humane society and ask if they will sedate him for transport if she can hire someone to get him. The only thing is, is I am working with very limited time, I only have until the 21st to find something for him because he can't come back to my house, I just can't trust him around my daughter. I was talking to her this morning asking her how she would feel if he came home just for a little while. She said mommy is he going to charge me again, I don't want him to bite me mom. She is my responsibility to keep safe, I could put all the safety persuasions into place and something could go wrong and that is my daughter's life. I can't risk it, he is going to have to stay at the humane society for the remainder of his quarantine. My husband is nervous with me going to get him when he is released, he thinks something snapped in him and he is scarred he will turn on me like he did my girl. He said with all the stress he is going through now he just might be a completely different dog when I go get him. I don't think that will happen, has any of you had experience with a dog basically mentally breaking from being in a high stress environment for so long?
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
I asked the person in charge of the dogs medical at the humane society about running blood work on him, she said they are not allowed to do it. She is going to see if his vet can go in and take the needed samples but right now Odin isn't letting anyone near him. His breeder contacted me and she has not heard anything about any of her dogs becoming aggressive or having medical issues. She is also looking into finding a place for him. She knows other breeders and trainers that are experienced with boerboels. Someone from a boreboel rescue contacted me this evening too, the Big dog huge paws contacted her, she is also trying to find someone, the only kicker is that she is in Pennsylvania. I explained everything from Chief to what happened this past Thursday. I also said if she does find someone they have to be experienced with aggressive boerboels and there has to be no way he can come in contact with children. I can't just let him go to anyone. I hope his breeder can take him, she was talking about no one will transport an aggressive dog so Monday I am going to contact the humane society and ask if they will sedate him for transport if she can hire someone to get him. The only thing is, is I am working with very limited time, I only have until the 21st to find something for him because he can't come back to my house, I just can't trust him around my daughter. I was talking to her this morning asking her how she would feel if he came home just for a little while. She said mommy is he going to charge me again, I don't want him to bite me mom. She is my responsibility to keep safe, I could put all the safety persuasions into place and something could go wrong and that is my daughter's life. I can't risk it, he is going to have to stay at the humane society for the remainder of his quarantine. My husband is nervous with me going to get him when he is released, he thinks something snapped in him and he is scarred he will turn on me like he did my girl. He said with all the stress he is going through now he just might be a completely different dog when I go get him. I don't think that will happen, has any of you had experience with a dog basically mentally breaking from being in a high stress environment for so long?
My dog was sedated at the vets for xrays. He was coming out of sedation and was in a long narrow kennel. I went to get him and he lunged towards me out of severe fear. We were able to get him leashed once we gave him some space and let him run out of the kennel on his own. My dog is easily stressed and has fear/anxiety issues. I think in your case your dog will be very excited to see you thinking he's going home...
 

OdinBB

Well-Known Member
My dog was sedated at the vets for xrays. He was coming out of sedation and was in a long narrow kennel. I went to get him and he lunged towards me out of severe fear. We were able to get him leashed once we gave him some space and let him run out of the kennel on his own. My dog is easily stressed and has fear/anxiety issues. I think in your case your dog will be very excited to see you thinking he's going home...
I hope he is happy to see me, I will try to make his last day the best I possibly can, I just hope I can do what I have to do. BUT I am praying his breeder will come through and say she will take him or possibly a person who has experience with aggressive boerboels.
 

DMikeM

Well-Known Member
I am in contact with the woman that you spoke with. I hope she has some answers for you.
 

al capone

Well-Known Member
OdinBB how does it turn out . I'm sorry all you,your daughter,your family and Odin went through. Sorry I just so the thread,i hope you took the best decision protecting your daughter first and then ,I hope Odin is in a safety place