My Jack - question regarding aggression control

[teodora]

so... my sweet CC just got 1 year old: the very next day he almost jumped off the fence to grab a staffy and rip his head off. That staffy is an unstable dog and we knew it. Still, Jack didn't seem to have a problem with him before. The staffy was on the street (alone), jumping up and down our fence, so jack climbed on the other side of the fence and tried to grab the dog by the head.
I pulled Jack back by the collar and he turned his head half way towards my hand and snapped (he didn't touch the skin). The hysterical staffy was still there barking at us.
I can't control the dogs on the street, but I was always able to control mine - now it seems that he becomes more protective/aggressive towards male dogs and me getting in the middle is not a good idea anymore. I am not worried about front yard - I will not let him there until I put proper fences in place. I am worried it can happen at the dog park/during walks or in any other place.
Should I get a muzzle for him?
Training? He's obedient - except that moment when he was in attack mood. I do work with him basic obedience daily, he's good.
I somehow expected him to mature, but I didn't see it coming so soon and so strong. May the 2 puppies contribute to his aggressiveness - he feels the need to protect the pups?
What would be the best approach, before it escalates?

 

[Liz_M]

Your previous thread about your lack of an adequate front fence, and your current avatar with your three really large young uncontrolled dogs who can easily jump the fence to get at the two neighboring dogs, pretty much illustrates your problem.


You need (IMHO) much stronger fencing, because you have potentially aggressive large puppies, who are clearly neither adequately trained nor adequately controlled by you.


Sorry, but your statement that your dogs are "obedient, except when they're in attack mode" and your blaming of the other dog who was attacked by your dog, not on your property, in fact your untrained and uncontrolled dog climbed your fence and attacked another dog, seriously and you are blaming the other dog?, raises a huge red flag for me. You have beautiful dogs and post gorgeous photos of them but if you were my neighbor I'd be doing everything I could to either get you to properly contain your dogs, or relinquish them, or to move away from me.


tl: dr: get a more secure fence. Your dogs are dangerous, untrained and won't improve as they mature.

 

[teodora]

thanks for reply - i already said in the first message that a proper fence will be put in place. Any other suggestion?

 

[teodora]

I can't add to the previous message - probably I didn't make myself clear. The other dog was roaming the streets, my dog was inside my yard. The other dog jumped on my fence (the street side of the fence) and mine jumped on the other side to get him.
And hell YES I DO blame the dog that was alone on the street and got up my fence and started barking. Jack was INSIDE my yard, never got out, and he matched the other's dog aggression: he protected his property. It was NOT the neighbors dog - they know each other and are ok. That particular staffy was an unbalanced dog that snapped at people before and we know it well. Even so, I would prefer Jack to ignore him as he always did.

And I repeat: I am worried about potential aggression at dog park or on the street.
You have some advice about it - about the problem I am talking about - or you don't and that's fine. But don't make assumptions that are not correct.

 

[Hector]

Make sure your fence is very strong and that it is modified so that the dogs cannot jump it or go through it. If you can't do anything soon, then maybe look into some sort of tethering arrangement.

This incident may or may not carry on to your walks or outings towards other dogs, but now you definitely know what he's capable of.

 

[teodora]

the fence is not my major problem. I will replace the front yard fence sometime soon, anyway. They haven't been alone in the front yard, ever, but they've been allowed there with us. In the meantime they're banned from front yard, I'll only let them in the back yard, where the fence is more solid and there are no distractions.

My problem is that it was the first time Jack showed real aggression - and heaps of it - and it was within reason, I totally back him up, BUT he didn't respond to commands nor reacted properly when I grabbed his collar. He can do the same during walks or in the park and I would need to know the best way to reinforce control when he is in attack mode.
I don't have problems controlling him in any other circumstances. There's been some previous defiance but it was pretty much solved by working with him daily on basic obedience. When he's loaded to bite another dog basic obedience doesn't seem to help.
So what does help?

 

[NYDDB]

Avoidance, really. When out on walks and you see another dog that is showing aggression towards Jack, create as much space as possible, and make sure you have him right next to you, using whatever command you have used in training.

When Mateo reached about 11 or 12 months, and his hormones kicked in, I really had to step up my game, when it came to interacting with other dogs (usually male, and large.) No more off-leash running about in the park with lots of other dogs...it was simply too risky. He would rarely start anything, but would not back down from a challenge.

I also, knew my sweet puppy was going to mature, and thought I was prepared, but one day you have a "wake up call" so to speak---- so heed it, and step up with training (which I know you are doing already) as well as really learn to read your dog's body language (as well as other dogs.)

I live in a very populated area, so it's something I have to be aware of---there are just way too many untrained and aggressive dogs around, with owners who really have no clue. As it is, Mateo is not a reactive dog, but when pushed...he can be very determined. Fortunately, I have learned how to read him, and sense even the slightest tension from him, and learned how to handle it.

These dogs are strong- and at only one year, Jack is only going to become stronger...and I agree, your fence is not the real issue here.

 

[teodora]

thank you. I was thinking about a muzzle for walks - and I still am - but it would not solve 100% of the problem, he would still take the challenge and get hurt. I currently walk him with a gentle leader collar + a Toughdog collar just in case the gentle leader gets broken (which didn't happen, he's good on walks). It makes it easier for me to turn him around when he gets focused on something. We would probably avoid dog parks for a while.
Would protection training teach a CC to leave on command when he's winded up? Or would it reinforce his tendency to protect us (even when we don't need it!). I just don't know what exactly would be better for him at this age/stage.

 

[Hector]

The best way to gain control is to never let the dog escalate into that state of mind.

Use all the tools you can think of that you think is necessary: muzzle, barriers, strong leashes, double collars, perhaps an underground fence. You can never go wrong obedience training. Arm yourself with things like taser, break stick, some sort of horn like a dog horn. If you need to grab the dog by the collar in a fight or something, then situate it up high and cut off his air intake. I don't think I would grab him by the collar since he's shown that he will redirect his frustration on you.


Are there any trainers in your area?

 

[Hector]

thank you. I was thinking about a muzzle for walks - and I still am - but it would not solve 100% of the problem, he would still take the challenge and get hurt. I currently walk him with a gentle leader collar + a Toughdog collar just in case the gentle leader gets broken (which didn't happen, he's good on walks). It makes it easier for me to turn him around when he gets focused on something. We would probably avoid dog parks for a while.
Would protection training teach a CC to leave on command when he's winded up? Or would it reinforce his tendency to protect us (even when we don't need it!). I just don't know what exactly would be better for him at this age/stage.

These are things to ask a trainer.

 

[Hector]

I wouldn't worry so much about how to control him on walks since he already walks nicely until he starts showing signs of DA (dog aggression) on leash.

 

[teodora]

yes, we've been working with 2 trainers on obedience. I got what I wanted out of it. He's good at recall, heel, sit, lay, wait, place, stop, leave, find, off and I redirect him without any issue when I don't like what he's doing. I can leave bacon in front of him on the floor and leave the room - he would not touch it until I come back and tell him to. He's very tuned and willing to get engaged in any activity with me - less with the trainers.
And protection training seems... tough. I don't want to make him more protective than he is naturally, anyway.
I have a horn but he doesn't really react to it. And yep, he turned around to get me - and then he stopped - so grabbing him is risky.

 

[Hector]

When you saw him trying to hop the fence, did you try to recall him?

 

[teodora]

yes, I recalled several times They were both barking loud, I don't even know if he heard me. Anyway, he just ignored me until I grabbed him.

 

[Hector]

yes, I recalled several times They were both barking loud, I don't even know if he heard me. Anyway, he just ignored me until I grabbed him.

So to me, one of the problems is recall. What I would do is if it's possible is to train recall on a long line while there are dogs on the other side of your fence whether it's intentionally planned or just random dogs going by throughout the day. If it's possible to set something like that up, it would really improve on his recall. Start with lots distance where he sees the dog, but not close enough to really care. Then you slowly work your way towards more difficult situations. You can train using the LAT method. Look it up on youtube (Look at That).

I like to do something called the premack principle. I practice in a large fenced off yard and in a neighborhood with lots of dogs and people walking by. He barks at other dogs. I recall him. He comes and gets his reward. I release him. This may or may not be a good idea for you, but it is an idea.

I would also make it so he can clearly hear you no matter what whether you start using a whistle device or a sound of some sort.

Here are some of my videos. I did this a lot when he was younger and his recall is very good. We don't always succeed and when he does fail, I always have my slip leash ready. I will remove him and situate him by me and he is not allowed to free roam the yard.

[video=youtube;zyNVrLoXLK0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyNVrLoXLK0[/video]

[video=youtube;-pPsKxLPpgI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pPsKxLPpgI[/video]

Also, how is he with collar grabs? If he dislikes it then perhaps look into collar grab desensitization training. Practice grabbing the collar all ways using all sorts of pressure.

One thing I want to mention about the dog park (being outside of the park) is that it is a great place to test and practice obedience, nothing but high level distractions.

[video=youtube;nHZYp2lCNjw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHZYp2lCNjw[/video]

 

[DDSK]

I need to work with Abby when she is engaged she won't listen, maybe a loud whistle would get her attention.

 

[CeeCee]

When Zeek first joined our family (around 5 mos of age) he was HIGHLY reactive to people passing by our back yard, for us, the key is exactly what Hector said, having control of your dog at all times and never letting him get to that level of arousal. For us, whenever our neighbors were out, I had him on a long lead line and we practiced remaining clam and looking looking back to me. We did this in very short bursts - less than 5 minutes at a time. (I also taught him Leave It and a recall.)

Gradually we added more freedom of movement and then play so that he could remain calm and focused on our games rather than the neighbors.

It has taken almost two years, but now he can be out there when they come out, he looks, watches, and then resumes what he was doing. (If they have guests, he will still watch and I praise him for watching and remaining calm.) If he does bark at the strangers or if they get too close to the fence, I can call him off.

He is doing so well, we have move to the front yard (not fenced in, but he's on a long lead attached to me). In the front yard, it turns out he is reactive to dogs and not people (who da thunk it). So again, we are working on remaining calm (us close to the house to create space) and keeping him calm and rewarding for looking back to me. I have noticed that is arousal level is significantly lower now than it was. (Whether that is age, exposure, or training, I couldn't say, but I am happy that it is.)

 

[teodora]

Thank you - it's great advice, I will start practicing with him to see how it goes. This change came so suddenly - in a matter of days - that it made me thing there is something ele going on, the puppies or he's in pain or something? Yesterday he wanted to attack one of his friends! I grabbed him again (no reaction this time) and pinned him to the ground. He was breathing heavily and didn't calm down for few minutes - so the level of arousal seemed pretty high, so quickly! He was the sweetest dog, and suddenly... he switched. it fails me. I had an aggressive rescue female long ago but she was way more predictable and aggressive with a reason - bullied pup. But Jack ?!

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

This situation could have been avoided.

You noticed the enemy dog was being a pain in the ass before your good dog went bad, yes? Did you allow aggressive behavior from your dog while he was on his side of the fence? The dog doesn't really understand this side or that side of the fence. The fence is merely something in the way, and negligible.

Be proactive, not reactive. Stop the behavior that leads up to the aggression.

Next time the lil bastard dog is out in the street. Work with your good dog and teach him acceptable behaviors. Have consequences for negative behaviors.

Dogs are extremely perceptive. All your fear and angst of what MIGHT or COULD, they pick up on that, and react to it. Get yourself under control, then control your dog. Put a muzzle on your negativity surrounding your dog.

Don't let your dogs out unless they are supervised. By supervised I mean, where you can control unwanted behaviors.

 

[teodora]

Thank you - the enemy dog was just wandering around since Jack was 3-4 months old but they never interfered and Jack never reacted, so I didn't expected him to. That is an unbalanced dog that snapped at people around and we were aware of him but nothing else. I was 4 meters away from Jack when he snapped, in my yard. Later during the day there was another episode when he tried to snap at another dog passing by, which happened to be a previous friend of him. And yesterday there almost was another one but we stopped it before it began.
I can ultimately control him by dragging him by the collar out of the conflict zone, with the risk of getting some injuries and I wouldn't risk it - I will get a muzzle for him and start the long lead training immediately.

It would be very interesting to know how the heck did this switch happened - he was so friendly weeks ago. Could be one of the girls with a different type of energy feeding his aggressiveness? The young buggers have been around him at every incident, and at the last one Sophia starting yelling (even if she was few meters away). Can he show the "mom's syndrome" - protecting the pups? Or is he just growing up and going through a different stage? Can he be in pain? (in somehow coincided with the injury of the paw)? Should we visit the vet?
With us he's the same sweet pup as always. He's totally fine with the girls. He just reacts totally different to other dogs - even his friends.
And - it might just my assumption here - he seems quite wary of other humans also. We had some friends at our place, they did pet him as usually BUT it took just a little bit longer for him to come closer. His usual self is happy and all over the new people to kiss them, immediately.