I think i've run out of options at this point

[ElectricEvoIX]

hey everyone i'm new to the boards here. So my wife and I bought a bull mastiff puppy, Hercules, from a breeder in upstate NY. Everything was good we got the dog we wanted color and a male and we were ready to take on the training challenge any puppy brings along with it.

So we look into trainers in our area, find one and book him and start training. Hercules has been a stubborn guy from the get go but we followed the trainers suggestions, put him in a smaller plastic crate with a wire door. Big enough for him to move around in and lay down since he was only 8 weeks old when we picked him up. The breeder gave us all the info we needed as well in terms of feeding times, type of feed, etc. We have been feeding him Nutro Natural choice adult food, low protein so he grows into his body. He's been on 3 meals a day since he was born until just recently. We fed him 3 times a day 1 1/2 cups each meal. Since my wife and I work during the day we would feed him breakfast in the morning, walk him, he would do all his business and we'd put him in the crate and we would go to work, so by 8 he would be in the crate fed and walked. My sister in law would come to our house between 1-2 and feed him lunch, walk him, play with him and back in the crate before she left. We would get home around 6, walk him, play with him around the house a bit and feed him dinner around 7. Per the breeders recommendation we should eliminate his midday meal when he reaches around 5 1/2 months of age which he is now. So now he has 2 meals of 2 1/2 cups of food a day. Still walked the same amount which is after a nap or playtime, before we go to bed, etc.

Another aspect to our household is that we have another dog, a silky terrier, which was mine that came with us when we bought our house last December. She originally was setup in an area with a door crate and had wee wee pads. I house trained her so knew to use the pads. As he grew of course the smaller crate no longer worked. We bought him the biggest crate Petco sells and set that up and his new perm home. It came with a divider and I set up the divider where he had a smidge more room in the big crate than when he had in the smaller crate. Still enough room to get up and turn around but surely not enough for him to start soiling himself and being able to get away from it without an issue. The trainer suggested that I move the yorkie to another area and start to break the wee wee pads habit as Hercules would smell her eliminating in the house and believe he could do that same. That didn't quite happen right away but when Hercules outgrew his smaller crate I moved the yorkie in there and he had his new crate as his home.

Hercules had most of his accidents in the house, not really many in the smaller crate and my wife kept telling me to move the yorkie and stop the wee wee pads in the house because it's going to teach Hercules bad habits. As I mentioned before that has been changed and there are no more wee wee pads in the house. Both dogs are walked outside and do their business without any issues.

So now we have our current dilemma and my wife and I are pretty much at our wits end and don't know what else to do. Hercules has now started to pee and poop in his crate without a single care in the world. He's been doing this on a daily basis, at time several times a day. When Hercules would first go in crate when he was a little younger the Trainer suggested getting his urine and stool checked which we did on 2 separate occasions and both times he came back with a clean bill of health. So that implied it was just behavorial. The first 3 days we moved both dogs to their respective crates Hercules was good holding his pee and poop till he was walked and I said to myself wow moving the other dog really did make a difference. Well after that 3rd day hes been the worst he ever has been. I don't know what else we can do at this point to try to curb the eliminating in his crate but it's almost like he feels that's hi bathroom now and has zero care about sitting in his own pee and poop. He won't whine or whimper until after the fact and of course by then it's too late.

We have followed all the trainers instructions and suggestions and he agrees that we have done everything right in order to curb this from happening yet it still is. Has anyone experienced this before or have any other suggestions that might help?? Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

[Al and Julie]

I would suggest you give the crate a good cleaning with something like natures miracles Natures Miracle Advance Stain and Odour Remover | Canada he might be smellingy his first accident and figures he can go there. Also maybe putting a blanket he likes or something it may help.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

I would suggest you give the crate a good cleaning with something like natures miracles Natures Miracle Advance Stain and Odour Remover | Canada he might be smellingy his first accident and figures he can go there. Also maybe putting a blanket he likes or something it may help.

Hi there thanks for the response! I did forget to mention the trainer suggested that and it's all we use to clean up the messes. We have the one for hardwood floors in case he still has an accident on the floor and then some lavender smelling one that we use when he goes in the crate. Whenever he makes a mess in his crate I use 409 to really disinfect the mess he made then after I wipe that down I use the nature's miracle, let that set on the plastic bottom of the crate for a few mins per the instructions on the bottle and then wipe that up as well.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

It could be possible that he's learned from the pee pads that's its "ok" to go in the crate, so I would not use the pads anymore personally. More importantly he's still a puppy and each dog learns differently. Take the pup out in small intervals 30 minutes no more than an hour. Most importantly after eating and drinking, and reward the pup heavily after it does it business. To make things easier you can also have a "mark word" ie " go potty"

I have two dogs, one was not fully potty trained until 15 months old. My newest aditon was potty trained at 4 months. Hang in there it does get better.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

It could be possible that he's learned from the pee pads that's its "ok" to go in the crate, so I would not use the pads anymore personally. More importantly he's still a puppy and each dog learns differently. Take the pup out in small intervals 30 minutes no more than an hour. Most importantly after eating and drinking, and reward the pup heavily after it does it business. To make things easier you can also have a "mark word" ie " go potty"

I have two dogs, one was not fully potty trained until 15 months old. My newest aditon was potty trained at 4 months. Hang in there it does get better.

I hope you're right. We praise heavily when he goes outside, the whole "good boy", "good pee pee" even before we take him out of the house "let's go outside to make a pee pee" things along those lines. We also have cut out the wee wee pads for over a month now so there's no odor, other than his, that could smell in the house at any given point in time. The little one doesn't go in that small crate and holds it no problem otherwise if she was going in her crate it would make perfect sense why he would go in his. Funny thing is he held it no problem for 3 days straight without a hiccup, then it all went downhill from there.

 

[musicdeb]

How old is Hercules? How often does he get a potty break?

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Yeah, they go weird phases. Even my "good one" had regression stage, then he it went away.

 

[DennasMom]

Do you feed him in his crate at all? Maybe even just some treats, so he considers that the dining room and not the bathroom?

You might also consider what Al and Julie mentioned and put a blanket or pillow from your bed in there... something that makes it smell too homey and good to soil.

Have you ever caught him in the act? Some dogs apparently need to be caught in the act and told "no" before it clicks that while outside is a GREAT place to go (with potty parties and all), inside is not allowed AT ALL.

If you can figure out how long he lasts in the crate before his 'accidents' maybe you could time an extra visit or two to catch him and get him outside before he has to go?

Did the hold-it issue start at the same time you went down to two meals? It might just take a while for his bladder and bowels to catch up with the stomach on the larger portions? Not that I've ever heard of that being a problem... just curious if that might have been the trigger that something is different?

Hang in there and good luck!

 

[Sadies Mom]

How soon after you started feeding hin 2 times per day did this start? Maybe go back to three times per day feeding?

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

Another update from since last night. My wife and I went to the MNF game last night. We got home from work, walked him and then left to go to the game. My sister in law came over prob an hour later to feed him and walk him so he would stay on his usual feeding schedule. I would say between the time he was fed and walked and the time we got home, 5-5 1/2 hours passed. Technically he should hold it for 5 but if he pee'd I would understand since he's still a puppy. My sister in law left a towel for him to sit/lay on till we came home. We came home to a huge mess in his crate. He pee'd and pooped. He has mashed some of his poop in the towel, flung whatever he could out of the crate with his paws. We cleaned him up, paws and all. I wiped down the entire crate, nature's miracled the hell out of the crate, walked him again and we went to bed shortly after.

It was almost as if he set an alarm to do it. We started howling again at 3:17 a.m., same exact time as the night before. I immediately knew what had happened. I walk down the stairs and immediately smell the mess I was about to encounter and bingo he has pooped and pee'd all over his crate again!! Literally within I would say 2 hours of cleaning him up and cleaning the crate up he destroyed it all over again. I'm beyond frustrated, the wife and I have zero clue why this could be happening. He has never been THIS bad in or outside the crate. Where is all this extra poop even coming from let alone his complete disregard to even bother trying to hold it. He's made it through the night without issue on many occasions now we're lucky if we get 2 hrs out of him it seems.

How old is Hercules? How often does he get a potty break?

He's just a week shy of 6 months. Whenever we're home during the week he gets a chance to go outside to eliminate after we play with him, if he takes a nap, after he eats and right before we go to bed. On the weekend pretty much the same thing except if we run out to run an errand or anything we always take him out when we get home and before we leave the house.

Do you feed him in his crate at all? Maybe even just some treats, so he considers that the dining room and not the bathroom?

You might also consider what Al and Julie mentioned and put a blanket or pillow from your bed in there... something that makes it smell too homey and good to soil.

Have you ever caught him in the act? Some dogs apparently need to be caught in the act and told "no" before it clicks that while outside is a GREAT place to go (with potty parties and all), inside is not allowed AT ALL.

If you can figure out how long he lasts in the crate before his 'accidents' maybe you could time an extra visit or two to catch him and get him outside before he has to go?

Did the hold-it issue start at the same time you went down to two meals? It might just take a while for his bladder and bowels to catch up with the stomach on the larger portions? Not that I've ever heard of that being a problem... just curious if that might have been the trigger that something is different?

Hang in there and good luck!

We have never given him any food or treats in the crate. We do leave 2 toys during the day while we are gone, which we rotate out of his 6-8 total toys he has. We also bought him one of those hampster looking water bottles but giant sized for him which we leave attached to the crate during the day. We make sure he has access to water during the day and pull his water about 2 hours before we go to bed. We started out by leaving some old towels in the crate for him so he wasn't on bare plastic but almost everytime we came home or my sister in law would go over to feed him and walk him the towel was pee'd on. After talking to the trainer he suggested getting rid of the towel so he's on bare plastic as dogs do not like soiling themselves. That worked a little better but this new habit certainly takes the cake.

We don't catch him in the act while he's in the crate because he does it while no one is around to catch him. When we are home or my sister in law is over he's out of the crate and given attention. We have caught him however when he has pee'd or popped on the floor while he was running around the house. We started house leashing him in order to remedy that and it certainly cut down significantly on the accidents outside the crate but he just lets loose in the crate and it's mind boggling.

Per the breeder's instructions we should cut the mid-day meal between 5 1/2 and 6 months of age. We cut out the midday meal a little over a week ago and then this 'hold it" issue started happening and getting worse I would say in the last 4 days so not much after the midday meal was cut out. I would agree with the larger portions logic however he was getting 2 1/2 cups of kibble every meal, 3 times a day. Now it's 2 1/2, twice a day. I don't get why so much extra poop and pee when he's getting less food.

How soon after you started feeding hin 2 times per day did this start? Maybe go back to three times per day feeding?

We cut out the midday meal a little over a week ago and then this 'hold it" issue started happening and getting worse I would say in the last 4 days so not much after the midday meal was cut out. As I said above The trainer suggested maybe his food might be the issue and maybe mix in a different type of food 50/50 with his current food but I tend to disagree with that and do not want to start messing with his food at this point in time.

 

[DennasMom]

Wow Wow Wow.

I'm not sure what I would do at this point, either. Besides have a major break down!

Can you get a webcam or put a PC camera on him when you leave him alone so you can at least "see" how it happens?

Is this a separation anxiety issue? Maybe try the "binky toy" idea, here: http://www.aocb.com/training/literature

Any good 'board & train' people in your area? I'd hate to pawn the problem off to someone else, but maybe he needs a "reboot" in a new place to reset his thought process? That would give you a breather, too.

Or, is it something about the crate? If you move the crate to the bedroom so he can be with you, would that stop the mid-night issues? You would at least be able to get some sleep! He might be stressing out about being so far from his pack, now that he's old enough to want to protect you, that instinct might be triggering some changes. Where is the other dog during nighttime?

What about leaving him in an ex-pen in a laundry room, garage or bathroom (somewhere easy to clean up) instead of the crate?
Or... get a new crate of a different variety? (move from an airline crate to a wire crate, or vice-versa)?

We don't provide food (other than a stuffed kong) or water for Denna when she's locked in the crate. Never have with any of our dogs. Only one ever ran for the water dish after getting let out of the crate - and he was mr. anxiety slober/drooler in the crate (separation/crate anxiety... once we figured out it was the crate and left him with run of the house same as our other dog, he was fine).

If he's a bored-drinker or likes to play with the water bottle, that might be over-filling the bladder and causing problems. With the water bottle setup, can you tell how much he drinks when you're gone?

More poop after less food... is he losing weight? That would indicate some serious stressers are going on.... extra exercise (mental and physical) might help, and more structure to his daytime activities, if you can fit it in. Being in the crate on a regular schedule seems pretty structured, though... hard to beat that.

Any other items besides the mid-day meal change in his routine lately?

Just trying to brainstorm some ideas here... if you can get a webcam on him and see how it happens, maybe it will shed some light on the problem...

This makes Denna's "shred every pillow when mom's gone" problem look like peanuts!!

 

[Smart_Family]

Did you mention what kind of food he was on? If it's something that doesn't agree with his system he may not be able to hold it it very well.

 

[Al and Julie]

just an idea what if you feed him his meal in the crate, not while he is crated but at meal tiomes put his food in it he might associate it with eating spot and not bathroom spot.

 

[musicdeb]

Did you mention what kind of food he was on? If it's something that doesn't agree with his system he may not be able to hold it it very well.

Good question! Has he had a vet check to make sure it's not a physical issue?

 

[Bailey's Mom]

Wow Wow Wow....

Can you get a webcam or put a PC camera on him when you leave him alone so you can at least "see" how it happens?
Agreed: Maybe this is proceeded by a anxiety-type ritual.

Or, is it something about the crate? If you move the crate to the bedroom so he can be with you, would that stop the mid-night issues? You would at least be able to get some sleep! He might be stressing out about being so far from his pack, now that he's old enough to want to protect you, that instinct might be triggering some changes. Where is the other dog during nighttime.
Agreed: Mastiffs like being with their family members.

What about leaving him in an ex-pen in a laundry room, garage or bathroom (somewhere easy to clean up) instead of the crate?
Agreed: Some dogs just don't do crates. A bigger space like a laundry room might be the fix you need.

We don't provide food (other than a stuffed kong) or water for Denna when she's locked in the crate. Never have with any of our dogs. Only one ever ran for the water dish after getting let out of the crate - and he was mr. anxiety slober/drooler in the crate (separation/crate anxiety... once we figured out it was the crate and left him with run of the house same as our other dog, he was fine).

Agreed: if other dog has more freedom, or it's a crate/anxiety issue, this may fix the problem.

Wishing you the best with this...no one likes picking up, let alone washing off pooh. Good luck.

 

[KristinandCianna]

I will read more later, I just stopped at the part about what you feed. Please get him off Nutro Natural Choice!!!! Look on consumeraffairs.org this food has killed hundreds of dogs and cats. It killed my moms first GSD 4 years ago. It was a hideous death, and it was definitely from the food, we sent his insides to be analyzed because our vet couldnt figure out what killed a healthy 6 year old dog. Hopkins said it was a slow acting toxin that the dog ate everyday for a period of months. We had no idea! He was sometimes a little sluggish, but it was summer 90 degree plus days, and he was a 100 pound dog. No other evidence other then soft poo a couple times closer to when he died. It's not every batch. But, if I were you, I would get him off that food. This could be why he is pooing in his crate, because he cant hold it.

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

Another update from last night/this morning. The wife and I decided to try moving him to our master bathroom with a door gate. Trying to see if it's the anxiety issue possibly so we put him in there and go to sleep. Less than an hour into the night, we hear him get up and heard him pee but before I could get out of bed and the lights on he had already done it. So I started to get irritated again. We walked him right before we brought him upstairs and he hadn't drank any water but then he goes an pees again within an hour?! I was on the brink of deciding if I should put him in his crate again and abandon the experiment or follow through with the rest of the night knowing there might be a huge mess given he didn't even last an hour. I decided to leave him in the bathroom and see how the rest of the night fairs. We actually slept through the rest of the night, thank god!! haha, and there was no mess! We were both happy and started to think ok maybe it is anxiety. I leashed him and took him downstairs and right outside to do his business. He pee'd and pooped. Where that extra poop is coming from I have no idea. So I put him in his crate and go upstairs to get ready for work. I come back down after i'm ready and feed him. He spilt some water on the floor from his bowl so I put him back in his crate after he finished eating and went to grab some paper towels to clean it up. In the 20 seconds it took me to grab paper towels and come back to the room he had pooped in his crate!!! I don't know how in a matter of 3 days he went from great to terrible and now I guess thinking the crate is his bathroom.

Wow Wow Wow.

I'm not sure what I would do at this point, either. Besides have a major break down!

Can you get a webcam or put a PC camera on him when you leave him alone so you can at least "see" how it happens?

Is this a separation anxiety issue? Maybe try the "binky toy" idea, here: http://www.aocb.com/training/literature

Any good 'board & train' people in your area? I'd hate to pawn the problem off to someone else, but maybe he needs a "reboot" in a new place to reset his thought process? That would give you a breather, too.

Or, is it something about the crate? If you move the crate to the bedroom so he can be with you, would that stop the mid-night issues? You would at least be able to get some sleep! He might be stressing out about being so far from his pack, now that he's old enough to want to protect you, that instinct might be triggering some changes. Where is the other dog during nighttime?

What about leaving him in an ex-pen in a laundry room, garage or bathroom (somewhere easy to clean up) instead of the crate?
Or... get a new crate of a different variety? (move from an airline crate to a wire crate, or vice-versa)?

We don't provide food (other than a stuffed kong) or water for Denna when she's locked in the crate. Never have with any of our dogs. Only one ever ran for the water dish after getting let out of the crate - and he was mr. anxiety slober/drooler in the crate (separation/crate anxiety... once we figured out it was the crate and left him with run of the house same as our other dog, he was fine).

If he's a bored-drinker or likes to play with the water bottle, that might be over-filling the bladder and causing problems. With the water bottle setup, can you tell how much he drinks when you're gone?

More poop after less food... is he losing weight? That would indicate some serious stressers are going on.... extra exercise (mental and physical) might help, and more structure to his daytime activities, if you can fit it in. Being in the crate on a regular schedule seems pretty structured, though... hard to beat that.

Any other items besides the mid-day meal change in his routine lately?

Just trying to brainstorm some ideas here... if you can get a webcam on him and see how it happens, maybe it will shed some light on the problem...

This makes Denna's "shred every pillow when mom's gone" problem look like peanuts!!

Funny you mention that my wife has been 'bugging", I mean that in the nicest of ways haha, about getting a webcam and I've been saying we don't need one. Well I came across and article on CNN that mentioned this wireless cam that you can stream video to your phone and whatnot, https://www.dropcam.com/. I believe someone on these boards had mentioned that article and that camera so we're going to look into that for now.

Like I mentioned above we tried a new experiment last night to test if it's anxiety and he got through the night with just a pee on the bathroom floor then killed it by pooping in his crate. Of course one night isn't enough to know for sure or if he just had a good night. So we're going to try our bathroom thing for the next 2-3 nights and see how that goes.

We have a pen we used for him when he was a younger pup but he learned due to his size and strength he could move that thing around at will so I wouldn't want to leave that in the garage plus it's getting colder out these days. I don't trust him with free range of the house yet, not at 5 months.

We haven't monitored how much he drinks from the water bottle setup but I try not to fill it too much so he doesn't just drain the thing and starts peeing because he overdrank. I can start asking my sister in law to see what the level is at when she goes over to walk him and see how much he's drinking in those 4-5 hours.

He's def not losing weight and nothing else has changed in his daily routine aside from losing his lunch meal. We used to give him rawhide bones when he was a little younger to play with and he was running through those things. This extra poop kept springing up and my wife and I were wondering where is it coming from? The trainer said to stop giving him the bones so much because that's prob what was causing the extra poop and sure enough that was the culprit. This time around he has no extra treats or anything that would make me think would cause the extra poop and the lack of even holding it for even a minute.

Did you mention what kind of food he was on? If it's something that doesn't agree with his system he may not be able to hold it it very well.

He's eating nutro natural choice adult food. It's the same food the breeder feeds her dogs (she has 4 bull mastiffs) and was feeding both litters she had and said it's the best food for them so we followed suite and kept him on the same food.

just an idea what if you feed him his meal in the crate, not while he is crated but at meal tiomes put his food in it he might associate it with eating spot and not bathroom spot.

hmmm actually didn't think of that for some reason and I think it's a solid idea. Might give it a shot because at this rate what else do we have to lose right? Especially after the episode I wrote above from last night and this morning I'm hoping maybe this idea will help.

Good question! Has he had a vet check to make sure it's not a physical issue?

Yes he was checked 2 seperate times. The trainer suggested getting his pee and stool checked because the trainer was worried he might have had an UTI since he was peeing in the house no problem. Both times he came back with a clean bill of health. He's a solid dog, great face and all just this one momumental hump is driving us both insane!

 

[ElectricEvoIX]

I will read more later, I just stopped at the part about what you feed. Please get him off Nutro Natural Choice!!!! Look on consumeraffairs.org this food has killed hundreds of dogs and cats. It killed my moms first GSD 4 years ago. It was a hideous death, and it was definitely from the food, we sent his insides to be analyzed because our vet couldnt figure out what killed a healthy 6 year old dog. Hopkins said it was a slow acting toxin that the dog ate everyday for a period of months. We had no idea! He was sometimes a little sluggish, but it was summer 90 degree plus days, and he was a 100 pound dog. No other evidence other then soft poo a couple times closer to when he died. It's not every batch. But, if I were you, I would get him off that food. This could be why he is pooing in his crate, because he cant hold it.

hmmmm I actually did a quick google search on the food and of course there were some complaints recently and go far back. I also saw an FDA probe back in 2009. I know there are probably issues some consumers run across with every major brand but seeing what some people wrote maybe it's a batch issue as well. I know I just bought a new big bag of the nutro food on saturday morning but he was already making his messes accordingly in the crate so I didn't think it was the food. There was one morning he was slow to eat his food, he normally inhales his food since the day we brought him home. I did read some people fed their dogs the food since day one and then started having issues later on. Hercules however doesn't seem lathargic, or loose stool, no blood in his stool or anything but now i'm thinking maybe a switch in food might help? Any recommendations on food for that's good for the bull mastiff breed?

 

[Al and Julie]

Do a search in nutrtion for smart_family is very good for food info and has lots of threads on the subject.

 

[KristinandCianna]

We fed it for 20 years, and never had an issue until then. Not once. I would change, check out Acana, Orijen, something like that. I've also heard good stuff about FROMM i think it is called, or even Kirkland.