I need a little help...

[SavingGrace]

Forgive my stupidity, but if the prong collar hurts him, won't he become afraid of me, or dislike going for his walks?
I'm not being difficult, I've just never used one before.

Believe me, if the prong collar hurt dogs, neither of mine would come running towards me, anxiously sitting and wagging their tails waiting for me to put them on, before we go for our walk. The prong was designed to mimic a momma dogs correction to her pups. Its an odd sensation for them, but it does not choke them like a choke collar (hate those), yet it provides a slight pinch around the skin. Also similar to you grabbing your dogs neck skin with your fingers and giving a little pinch, but it does it all the way around the neck.

It's an attention getter - and unlike a choke collar, the dog will actually back off when the collar corrects them instead of continuing to pull choking themselves. Regular collars, when large dogs pull on them can also be harmful to the dog, especially a dog that pulls with great force.

Honestly, I was more worried about my CC"s safety when she would pull with such force on a regular collar. I didn't want to hurt her neck, or her throat, which from what I understand is a risk. The prong gave me a way to easily and safely correct them for unwanted behavior and enjoy peaceful, non-pulling walks.

My dogs love them. The CC, at first, would throw temper tantrums because as I said it is an odd sensation to them and you are 'taking control' of them. It's easy, at that point to think the collar is doing something bad, or that it's hurting them, because they may protest at first - don't give in. That's all it was for my girl, was temper tantrums. It was not hurting her, she simply did not want to do the command I asked without a treat, and she wasn't shy about letting me know it. Keep trying with it at least a few times and work through the tantrums. They are short lived and once they learn they can't get away with that behavior - you will own him instead of the other way around. This type of training helped me take control of my dogs actions. Instead of it being about how do I cater to my dog and ask her to focus on me, it became my dog listens to me because she respects me and I'm important to her. She even asks permission to come inside, jump on the couch or jump on the bed, which she never did before this type of training. I can't stress enough, she's happy and our bond is stronger. It's not torture.

After a few sessions with the collar my girl responded quite nicely and now she loves it. She's more than happy to go on walks, she's not fearful of it, in fact if I reach for it she's all tail wags. Our Eurasier was always fine with it, and the way he loves squirrels, it's a nice relief with him on our walks as well. He also actively waits for it to be put on him. If there was even the slightest chance it would hurt my girl (or my boy) I wouldn't use it, we've been through hell and back with corrective, life saving surgeries - she's my angel. Now she's my angel who listens pretty well (did I mention she's stubborn?)

The dog will respect you, not dislike you - you have to be the strong one, they're looking to you for guidance every step of every paw. They count on you to be the strong and dominant component in their lives.

I was skeptical at first too, and it seemed scary - so I put one around my thigh and tugged. It doesn't hurt, if you get the one with the rounded prongs (smooth and filed) - also do you research or have someone show you how to use it. Any serious dog trainer will sell the good ones and I'm sure they'd be happy to spend 15 minutes showing you how to use one. Don't get them at Petco or PetSmart - they don't have the smooth ones.

I hope that helped!!!

 

[SavingGrace]

If you want to try a prong collar, check out this link for instructions on applying and using the collar.

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar

Great link musicdeb! The trick with prongs is that corrections are short and firm. Quick taps - the punishment fits the crime. Gentle correction at first - if the dog doesn't listen increase the correction. I reserve hard corrections for the worst types of crimes, which thankfully I haven't had to do. If I ask my dog to sit and she ignores me, I give a correction. I don't repeat the command - I just correct. I correct until she sits. There are different corrections for sit, stay, down and heal.

A trick our trainer taught us, was to utilize the corrections in home settings where/when you know the dog has undesirable behavior (I would reserve this for when/if you're comfortable and have some experience using it). For instance, our Eurasier really loved to get into the bathroom garbage can and eat everything he found in there (GROSS!). So I put the garbage can in the middle of the living room while I was watching tv. If I got into it, I walked over and calmly said "No" and gave him a correction using a cut of short tap leash that hung on his collar (not the walking collar). 5 minutes later he'd go at it again, and I'd repeat.

The key with the prong isn't hard corrections - its repetition (as most things are with dogs) and consistency. If you're consistent with your commands and your corrections - they learn they can't get away with that. Once they know you're not going to give in, you're on your way.

 

[Kelly]

hi Franklins Mom. i second the idea of a prong collar for Franklin. until u get him under control, u ned to know u can hang onto him. the key is using it properly. Tess jumps up n down when i bring it out so i dont think it hurts. in fact i dot even use it anymore..it is very effective when used properly. very very very important thst u have someone show exactly how to use it.

it will help your confidence too.

 

[musicdeb]

Ok, this is my opinion. You are afraid each time you take him out and he feeds off of your fear. I would recommend a muzzle and prong collar until you feel confident enough to handle him.

Continue with the walks and training, i.e. look at me, sit, stop or enough command.

He's not a lost cause but I believe he's feeding off your fear. I did the same thing with Titan. Since I've become confident that I've got it, he doesn't lunge as much as you use to. He hasn't lunged for a couple of weeks but he doesn't mean it will never happen again. The only difference, I'm no longer afraid that he will hurt anyone which mistaken as, I'm afraid therefore something is wrong with that person coming towards us.

Make sense?

Do not give up on Franklin. You both can work this out. I wish we were closer to each other so I could see how he does what he does.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Yesterday, I don't feel like I was afraid. He walked by the cats, no big deal. A guy stopped his truck right in front of us to admire him, again, no biggie. I got him into a sit several times. I was feeling pretty good! Then he lunged. It was all I could do to keep my feet under me. After that, I was nervous, so we came home.

 

[musicdeb]

Not afraid of the oncoming traffic but I believe you are afraid of him lunging and hurting someone.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Prong's don't hurt. They're not comfortable, but they don't hurt. The concept is that its a different sort of pressure than usual so it makes the dog more aware of it. Most of the time you don't even need to deliberetly correct with them, the dog corrects himself when he leans into it. Apollo loves his cause it means we're doing something different or special!

It also doesn't have to be a permenant fixture. MANY people only need them for fairly short periods of time while the dog learns and then they can be phased out.

Ditto Musicdebs suggestion of a muzzle and prong. I understand your concerns, but a muzzle will give you some peace of mind that he can't bite (he could still knock someone down though) and the prong will give you an extra piece of control. If you're comfortable with two leashes you can even do both his regular collar and the prong.

Also what is the length of the leash you use and how do you hold it? If you're using a 6ft leash I highly recommend a 4ft or even 3ft leash (I can send you one of my old ones if you need), with the addition of a traffic lead to help keep him close to you, which will make it easier to control him.

Also watch him closely, many of these dogs are quite subtle in their body language, so the warning that they're about to go off is small. For many EMs it seems to be that the closed their mouth. But if you can learn the signs it'll help you stop him faster.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Maybe I was wary yesterday and just didn't realize it. I should have just walked away when I saw the women coming but they were walking so fast, I thought Franklin might feel like they were chasing him.
Ruth, I use a six foot leash for him right now. If he gave any type of body language that he was about to take off, it must have been really subtle because I was looking right at him.
I guess its time to research prong collars and measure Franklin's fat neck lol

 

[ruthcatrin]

I highly recommnd the Herm Sprenger line. They have high end fancy ones, but their basic prong isn't signifigantly more expensive than the ones at Petco, and they're much better quality.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

I'm looking at that line of collars now. What's the difference between a prong collar and a pinch collar?

 

[ruthcatrin]

They're usually the same thing, just different names. There are some differing styles of prongs/pinch though, but the weird ones often cost more.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Ok. I found one that is $15.99. It fits necks up to 25". Franklin's neck is 25 1/2 inches so I guess I need an extra link or two.

It says it's 3.9mm which means absolutely nothing to me. Lol

 

[ruthcatrin]

lol, doesn't to me either, but yah, pick up a couple extra links in the same order, that way you've got room to adjust.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Herm Sprenger Chrome Prong Collars

Does this one look ok to you?

 

[ruthcatrin]

I think thats the place I ordered from lol. If you can spare the extra $ I highly recommend the quick release version: Herm Sprenger Chrome Prong Collar with Quick Release they're MUCH easier to get on and off. Otherwise yes, that one is fine!

 

[Hector]

Be sure you have the prong hooked up to his regular collar for everyone's safety. Those collars, with or without a quick release are known to come apart. Thanks for not giving up!

 

[Hector]

What does Franklin do before he lunges? Does he stare at the other person and his body tenses with mouth closed? I know Hector will growl at people in the store if they look at him and say aww he's cute. If they don't talk to him or stare at him, he'd be fine a couple feet away. They key is to snap him out of that moment before he decides to lunge. Is he responsive to his name? Either say his name, grab a toy, walk a different direction, anything that will grab his attention. Have you tried clicker training Franklin? Did you get him to sit several times while the man talked to you/him? or just stared?

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Yesterday before he lunged, he was sitting anIt's how he learned acing me. I had his favorite duck treats and I had reached in my pocket to give him one and he just snapped. I barely stayed upright.

We did clicker training when he was a puppy. It's how he learned the basic commands that he seems to forget when we are out in public. Lol

 

[SavingGrace]

I've got Sprengers too! They're great - ours isn't quick release, but once you get the hang of it it's pretty easy. Always hook the leash to the bottle cap, not the ring. Also - don't take the links out of the part that has the extra metal on it - if you bend that metal piece you can't replace it, but you can replace extra links no problem. We keep a few extra links around, I'd definitely recommend getting a few extra. I don't always apply mine 'correctly' up high on the neck and tighter - mostly I leave that for training and give them an extra link for walks.

I have 6 foot leashes that are built with a handle about 12-24 inches from the collar (I'm probably not describing that well) - when we walk past people or if we're going to Petco or even when I was teaching them to heal, I could hold onto the handle which kept them close. It makes me feel like I have control because it then is like a short 2 foot leash. If I want to let them be dogs I can let go and they've got 6 feet.

It's like this one:
Leash Lady - Leash With Two Handles (Powered by CubeCart)

 

[Penelope's Mom]

I have help on tonight's walk. My daughter is coming over later and little does she know I'm recruiting her to walk Franklin with me.

She doesn't really have to help, as long as she can keep me from face planting if he lunges again. Lol