Food Aggression and Fear of Noises

[Flyingfree777]

Hi all! Long Post here.

I have a 3.5 year old EM ( 150 lbs) She is spayed and has no medical issues. I have had her since she was 10 weeks old. I moved to Florida and got her while I was in an apartment. I bought a house about 9 months after I got her. At the apartment she was exposed to a lot of people and a lot of dogs. She was always uncomfortable with loud noises ( fireworks, thunder, and booms) or other dogs barking at her.

I decided to have a baby. I now have a 2 year old. She ignores the baby and I do not allow them to be together at all. Big dog, little baby. No need for them to be together.

Here are the issues:

1. Since moving in the house the fear of fireworks and thunder is out of control. She is terrified. Scratching doors, pacing, whining, and painting. Always looking for a place to escape or hide.

Loud noises in the neighborhood make her nervous in the backyard. Trash trucks, neighbors working, and sudden noise and she is scared. I would like her to be outside more with me to play and exercise. As soon as a noise happens, she wants back in.
I can't walk her in the neighborhood because a loud noise happens and she bolts. She can pull me down and I have actually had that happen. So, I have been doing walking in the backyard but the fear of every noise can be a problem when walking or playing.

She also has started lunging at other dogs or people if they startle her. She has been always super friendly with people and other dogs.

So basically she is scared of everything.

2. Now the next issue is food aggression. She will growl if there is food down and you walk into the room. She will bite if you get near the food. I am working with her by standing about 7 feet away, throwing treats, and keeping the feeding in a controlled environment. But there cannot be any mistakes. Food bowl on the counter and the cat walks by and she will go after the cat, I move to close before she has double checked that she is done and she will bite and lunge at me. She has snapped at me when giving her a treat. Simply put, she is a nasty girl when food comes out.

3. Biting or snapping if she is afraid of something. She was crate trained but has decided that her crate is evil and will not go into it. I though it would help with the thunder and fireworks. I tried a thunder shirt and she bit it when I tried to put it on her a second time. A trainer tried to put a backpack on her she allowed it the first time but then snapped at him when he tried a second time. She will fight to the death if you try to muzzle her.

I have had our vet check her out, nothing wrong. I have hired 2 trainers and behaviorist ~ Bark Busters ( that system did nothing...throwing something at a low confidence dog, not a great idea.). A positive reinforcement that wanted to use a lot of treats....food aggressive so not a good idea. The behaviorist wanted her leashed to me for 2 hours a day. Single working mom here. I don't have two hours to be totally away from my kiddo. I work from home while my kiddo plays in the living room. The dog can see us all day. I interact with her all day. She is fed 3 times a day Wellness Simple ( skin and ear allergies, only food that helps with that)

She has been trained and knows verbal and hand commands for come, down, sit, stay, shake, paw, speak, and heal. she doesn't pull on a leash while walking. Some days she is the most obedient dog but other days she will completely ignore me.

I am so willing to work with her and take plenty of time. She is my first mastiff but not my first giant. I have had Rotties, Dobermans, Chessies, Newfoundlands, all over 120 ponds. I would love if any of you would be willing to weigh in and recommend anything. Books, training routines, desensitization methods, Anything?



Thanks so much!

 

[marke]

i've had lots of dogs , big dogs , some "mean" dogs too ........ you have a dangerous sounding situation , at least that is how it comes across in reading it ........ don't know your abilities , with a baby involved it's scary to read ..... your dog needs to learn trust and respect , tough to teach a dog respect without squashing the trust , especially a dog that lacks trust to begin with , it's a fine line to walk ....... feed him from your hand , hold his bowl , never just give it to him ........ if your afraid of him , it makes it even more dangerous ........ imo , that dog needs old school training , and not in the right hands is irreparable and dangerous ...... jmo

 

[Flyingfree777]

I can assure you that the baby and the dog are not in contact and is kept far away from this dog. They are never in the same room together. The baby's safety comes far above the dog. There are not silly romantic notions where baby and dog are concerned. Mostly the baby limits available time to a certain degree and I will not place them in the same room together. I can't do long stretches of time at once with the dog but 10 to 20 minutes multiple times a day is easy.

I agree with you that this is a potentially dangerous situation. I am well aware of the damage a big dog can do. Hence 2 trainers and a behaviorist and why I am asking for more ideas. This dog is starting to run out of options. I will put her down if she can't learn to live successfully in this house. No one likes getting bit but it can be a fact when working with a dog. She isn't the first dog that has tried to bite me. Although I do prefer to stay out of the mouth of a dog.


I respect your option and don't disagree with you. However, I need some resources and some help.

 

[Flyingfree777]

She also has started lunging at other dogs or people if they startle her. She has been always super friendly with people and other dogs. <- I didn't write that correctly.... When we are out walking she will do this if she is startled by a stranger, it happen once. Not growling or aggressive behavior, she wanted to play. She is too big to suddenly want to bolt home or get too friendly with other dogs and people. That is why we are working in the back yard.

 

[Flyingfree777]

I was just hoping that if anyone that had a mastiff that was terrified of noises had any ideas. This is a huge problem. She will spend most of the day looking for the noises that scare her and she finds them all the time. It thunders almost everyday during the certain seasons.

Fireworks, booms, or thunder cause panic. Panic causes disobedience. Without scary noises, she is obedient 85% of the time on the first time given a command. 95% of the time on the second time giving the command. Not perfect but easy to work on. The fear though has been really hard. The fear of noises makes everything else hard to work on.

The food aggression sucks but we work on it. I was also hoping that someone might have so safe pointers that have worked with their mastiff.

I was also hoping that someone might have some ideas on how to increase confidence without scaring her. She gets bored with too much obedience training and if a scary noise happens, she's done.

And some ways to help build the trust between the two of us.

Maybe I'm asking too many questions or I'm on the wrong forum. Thanks Marke for replying.

 

[Boxergirl]

Flyingfree, what did the behaviorist say other than leashing her to you? Have you tried any pharmaceuticals? I have an EM with noise phobia and a boxer with severe generalized anxiety disorder. What you are describing sounds very much like a combination of both of those.

 

[marke]

I can assure you that the baby and the dog are not in contact and is kept far away from this dog. They are never in the same room together. The baby's safety comes far above the dog. There are not silly romantic notions where baby and dog are concerned. Mostly the baby limits available time to a certain degree and I will not place them in the same room together.


I respect your option and don't disagree with you. However, I need some resources and some help.

I understand the position your in with the baby , you are in that position , it's a really bad position to be in ..... I've raised kids with large dogs , even large what someone would call a large "mean" dog , that would bite a stranger without hesitation .... my kids were around dogs from birth through adult , my dogs were taught from day one those babies were the funnest greatest thing there was , nothing but good things happened when those kids were around , and they respected those kids , those kids respected those dogs .... my opinion is once you start down the road your on with the dog and baby it just gets harder to turn around ...... if my dog ever bit me they'd figure out in a heartbeat it was a terrible mistake , but then my dogs are not fearful , fearful is a really hard emotion to control , you get to rough with a fearful dog and you could be creating a dangerous mess ....... you don't need internet help , you need hands on help where the dog can actually be observed ....... I've known more "professional" internet dog trainers , and real life trainers I wouldn't let teach my dog to sit than I could ever remember ....... you need a for real dog person to assess your dog , doesn't sound like a good situation to me , at least not long term ........

 

[Flyingfree777]

He felt that she would get over it if she was leashed to me and I was calm during a storm or fireworks. He said that if she felt my energy as calm and assertive that she would eventually get over he noise fears because she would follow my lead. Which thunder and fireworks don't scare me so no problem being calm His program was mostly based on 2 hours of being leashed to me and following me around. Calm, Assertive Energy. We did accomplish a lot with his stuff. The food aggression and the fear of noises still no luck though.

The only pharmaceuticals that the vet has prescribed is tranquilizer, Acepromazine . It immobilizers her so she can't destroy my house but she is still aware and scared. So, it feels inhuman to use.

 

[Flyingfree777]

I have had a problem finding trainers and behaviorist that don't use electric shock collars in this area. I won't put one on her.

That fear of noise though is killing us. She is a sweet girl but very scared of BOOMS.

 

[Flyingfree777]

My kiddo is learning the rules with a toothless pug and two cats. At two she understands how to treat the animals. She talks to the mastiff and the mastiff wags her tail and will sit and watch the baby for hours. She is just too big to be around her. She sees the baby all day. She just can't get up close and personal. Me personally, I would never let a big dog around a little kiddo.

I have this mastiff and I have a kiddo. I will work my butt off to help her but she may never be around my kiddo. She has never bitten me only snapped and that has all been over food or trying to force her to do something like wear a thunder shirt. But I consider snaps as a missed bite.

I live in an area with limited options for trainers. So, I will have to figure it out and the first step is listening to others who have had a dog that is fearful of noises or anxiety. The mastiff is good but has some special needs.

 

[TylerDurden]

I still have an EM "Baby" (5 months) compared to yours, but food aggression has always been one of my concerns. Bane has never shown any signs of food aggression, but I am very strict when it comes to food. He learned very early on to sit and wait patiently. Sometimes, he still gets to excited, but he wouldn't "touch" his food if I didn't allow him to do so. That might come across as too strict, but it might actually prevent food aggression from early on. However, I don't know what role genetics play from that perspective. Regardless, I will keep being strict, as I want him to understand that I am the food provider whose orders he needs to follow. I don't make him wait overly long or anything like that, but want to make sure he is calm and patient. From time to time, I have taken his food away while he was eating. Although he wasn't happy, he didn't show aggression at all.
With regard to fear of noises, we have made our own experiences. Bane used to be very afraid of loud noises (e.g. shopping carts, fire alarms etc.). However, the more he got used to it, the less he tended to react. I don't want to say that he's indifferent, but typically he would not freak out or be overly fearful.
Again, he is still very young, and I hope that those positive behaviors won't turn into the opposite at some point.

 

[Boxergirl]

He felt that she would get over it if she was leashed to me and I was calm during a storm or fireworks. He said that if she felt my energy as calm and assertive that she would eventually get over he noise fears because she would follow my lead. Which thunder and fireworks don't scare me so no problem being calm His program was mostly based on 2 hours of being leashed to me and following me around. Calm, Assertive Energy. We did accomplish a lot with his stuff. The food aggression and the fear of noises still no luck though.

The only pharmaceuticals that the vet has prescribed is tranquilizer, Acepromazine . It immobilizers her so she can't destroy my house but she is still aware and scared. So, it feels inhuman to use.

Are you sure this person was a certified behaviorist? That doesn't sound at all like the behaviorists I've dealt with. It sounds like they watched a lot of the dog whisperer. I'm sorry, but I think the advice he gave you was a bit silly without any other desensitization or counter conditioning going on as well. I do think that you need to be calm and have the dog trust you to handle situations, but tethering doesn't do that all by itself. As for using Ace - please don't use it ever again. It's inhumane. There are other things that will work better. Ace is something a lot of vets use because it makes the owner feel better, not the dog. Most owners don't realize how it works and they think that because the dog isn't running away, they must not be scared. Clearly you know that's not true.

I do agree with Marke that with a young child in the house you really need someone that can work with you in person. I don't think you've found the right people yet. Where are you located? Maybe we can help you find someone in your area?

I'll share a link below that contains some of the things we have done with my girl. We have her on Alprazolam for an event med, but I would think that your girl might need something long term. My boxer has been on Fluoxetine (Prozac) for maintenance and Alprazolam (Xanax) for events. The link suggests using food rewards, but you may have to get creative about that. For what it's worth, I think you're dealing with a bigger issue than just resource guarding and a sound phobia. I won't go into the whole story of my boxer, Al, but there are posts around if you want to search for them. I honestly considered euthanizing him because of his fear and anxiety. I was stubborn about medicating him for much too long. I thought because he was well trained that that should be enough, but I was wrong. He needed the help from medication to disengage enough to actually be able to hear what I was asking him to do. You (they) can't think when they're that scared and reactive. We work constantly with his issues, but he's so much better than he was before. That being said, my children were teenagers when I got him and very dog savvy. I might not have been willing to take a risk with such a fearful dog if my kids had been younger. Fearful dogs are dangerous dogs. They aren't predictable and the fears aren't logical or something you can anticipate.

Last thoughts - Did the vet do a full blood panel? Including a full thyroid panel? What about her eyes? Did he check her eyesight?

Link that may give you some ideas:
http://news.vet.tufts.edu/2015/06/bang-bang-helping-your-dog-manage-noise-phobia/

 

[marke]

the best way to desensitize a dog to thunderstorms that I've used is to put them in a room with dogs that could care less during the storms , they find comfort in the other dogs indifference , never get 100% , but I've never not gotten huge improvements ........ might not be helpful , but I always drop stainless steel food bowls when I feed the pups , from the time I wean them , they soon associate the noise with food on the floor , they actually run to the sound , maybe try plastic bowls if your dog is to jumpy ........... I mow the lawn with the adult dogs laying around and let the pups watch from whatever distance they like , same with a vacuum cleaner ....... without other dogs I don't remember what I did ........ dogs learn from well adjusted other dogs easily , the problem is they learn from maladjusted dogs just as easily ........... desensitizing a dog is a long slow process that takes a ton of work and time .......... I've never been surprised by a dog , I've never seen one just decide to become food aggressive one day , never seen one bite without plenty of prior warning .......... lots , maybe most , of the time the dogs behavior is initiated by the owner ....... good luck with the dog , I sure hope you guys work it out .........

 

[Flyingfree777]

With the food agression she will sit stat and wait for the okay forever. She will also come off her food if she is called. She will obey basic commands while being interrupted during eating. You just cannot touch her bowl unless you call her off or she is done. Other animals cannot get too close while she is eating. The food agression started when the pug tried to steal the mastiffs food. This problem is about 8 months old. Before that fight there was never any aggression.

 

[Nik]

You have lots of great ideas from the others so far. I just wanted to add a note on the food aggression (though I agree with boxergirl's assessment that you may be dealing with an anxiety disorder). Neither of my dogs are food aggressive with me but I have done what TylerDurden discusses and trained them to never start eating until after I give the command and usually I only give the command after they go through many tricks. My dog's will sit there and stare at the food with drool forming beneath them until I give the go ahead. I also have started stopping them mid-meal on command before letting them eat again. The thing is I always allow the eating. they know its okay if I touch the food or move the food or make them wait because they will always always get the food. If I make them wait extra long or take it from them I give them a better higher value treat in trade.

Have you practiced trading higher value treats for the food you want to take? Can you possibly turn this into a game? Is there a food she will go nutso about to the point where you pull it out and show it to her and get instant obedience in all things asked? If so start practicing "drop it" with her food and in reward call her over and hand off the extra special treat. Then make her hold a sit until you release to get the actual food... maybe follow the sit up by dropping another high value treat into the food. In fact you could try taking the food and adding the high value treat to it so she learns taking the food means she gets better food.... Make it fun and valuable for her to relinquish control of the food.

As for fears... they are sooooo difficult to work with. Our Kahlua is afraid of everything new and it takes a lot of work and what you are dealing with sounds like it is on a different level. My thoughts as mentioned above are that boxergirl may be right on this one. One thing that did help with Kahlua though is having her walk over things that feel funny and make noises (agility training on unusual surfaces). It typically took support from husband and me and sometimes carrying through it and treating treating afterwards. But typically after five times through the course with our help she was running through it on her own like it was nothing in hopes to get more of those special special treats. But, again I do think it sounds like your pup may have a more severe form of anxiety.

 

[Nik]

With the food agression she will sit stat and wait for the okay forever. She will also come off her food if she is called. She will obey basic commands while being interrupted during eating. You just cannot touch her bowl unless you call her off or she is done. Other animals cannot get too close while she is eating. The food agression started when the pug tried to steal the mastiffs food. This problem is about 8 months old. Before that fight there was never any aggression.

Hmm ya Kahlua will get aggressive if Diesel tries to take her food or bone or toy. But, the instance I give a stern "NO" or "Kahlua" in warning she cuts it out. She knows it isn't allowed and she will back off and let him have whatever it is.... when she backs off I instantly reward her with something better then what he was trying to take. She has learned that I won't tolerate the guarding but that if she is instantly obedient she always gets the better thing, lots of love and lots of praise. And Diesel gets in trouble for stealing. She has learned I won't tolerate her fighting that battle but I absolutely will fight the battle for her.

 

[marke]

She will growl if there is food down and you walk into the room. She will bite if you get near the food. I am working with her by standing about 7 feet away, throwing treats, and keeping the feeding in a controlled environment. But there cannot be any mistakes. Food bowl on the counter and the cat walks by and she will go after the cat, I move to close before she has double checked that she is done and she will bite and lunge at me. She has snapped at me when giving her a treat. Simply put, she is a nasty girl when food comes out.

imo , this is the issue you need to get a handle on first , and it should be reasonably easy ......... she should be coming to you for treats and food , not you throwing them from 7 feet away ......... myself i'd make her beg for a treat , out of my hand , all this must be taken with a grain of salt , I have no idea how dangerous , or not , this dog is , or your capability .........

 

[Flyingfree777]

With regard to the noises. Booms. Cars back firing, fireworks, thunder, sudden sharp booms scare her. Mowers, vacuum cleaners, chain saws, nothing. She loves to play with the roomba. The toddler throwing things, pans falling, claps have no effect at all.

She had fireworks set off right next to her when she was a puppy at the apartment while she was sleeping on the patio and it scared her. That is what triggered that fear. Unfortunately, my neighbors set off fireworks all the time for hours on end.
If I am home and can sit with her she calms down and will put her head on my lap and chill out. However, that is not always the case and I can't always stop what I am doing for hours. She has never tried to bite or snap during the events. It just stresses her out for days after long hours of it and then she keeps looking for it.

She is very predictable when it comes to snapping. She is highly trainable if one slows way down and works with her slowly on whatever she is afraid of. She was terrified of getting in cars and now she is a pro. Same with her cleaning her ears and nails. I sometimes move faster than she does.

She has only snapped at me 4 times. Twice at the pug over food and once at the cat. The cat won that fight.
After she snaps she backs off and sits down and immediately becomes very submissive.

 

[Flyingfree777]

The trainers recommend throwing food treats while she is eating. I don't see the point if she will come off the food when called.
She pulled the growling one time when I came into the room. I called her off her food. She went submissive.

 

[Flyingfree777]

Part of the problem is that this dog and I worked so hard together for her first year with me. She was a little timid but we would work together until she was okay with whatever freaked her out. Then I got involved with someone and had a baby. He took care of her a lot the first year with baby. Needless to say he didn't last and is gone. All the training and work seem to be undone and I have a dog that has had to deal with a lot of change. So now I'm trying to build her back up, set clear standards for her, and make her life predictable and safe. I don't candy coat things and probably tend to over dramatize issues.

The food issue is totally workable but it will take awhile, I think. I just wanted to hear ideas that others had.

This dog endured 7 hours of fireworks exploding 20 feet away on New Year's Eve. She sat with her head between my legs quivering. It was heart breaking to watch. She did it unmedicated. So helping her get over the fear of those type noises or finding a way to soften the experiene is a huge priority. It was the worst New Year She has ever been through. She was terrified. She is still extra sensitive to booms after that night.