Fear Aggression - 8.5 month Neopolitan / Amer Bulldog Mix

[Cypress]

Hi,
I was wondering if you could give me some insight with a problem I`m having with my dog, Cypress. I am specifically asking you this as there are few, if any, dog trainers in my area that have dealt with a breed such as Cypress.
The problem is: He is displaying fear-aggression towards strangers and upon meeting new people. Something genetically has been bred into him and both his parents, specifically his mother, showed fear for people. Most trainers are approaching it in a `change his behavior format` by applying positive-only applications. I guess my real question is how would you deal with your dogs trying to attack or bite another human being when there is no real threat.
My goal was to engage Cypress in work, which would represent bite work and protection-related tasks, and I`m wondering if this is what he is needing even though all trainers are telling me that this will destroy the dog. They also are against all forms of corrections and negativity in this case as they do not see it changing his behavior in the long term.
I truly appreciate you reading this and would be grateful for any knowledge applications or success stories that you could offer.
Also, I live in the Vancouver, BC area, if you know of anyone up here that could help me that would be great too.
Thanks again,
Alan and Cypress

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

Whoever you have been talking to is exactly right! I am sorry that is not the info you wanted to hear, but it is true. You can only do bite work with dogs with temperaments of steel, rock solid, happy, confident dogs. Most protection trainers wont touch a fear reactive dog (none in our club will). It will ruin your dog, he'll turn into a dog that bites everyone for any reason. And yes you can't correct fear aggression with negative punishment (basically aggression) Aggression towards aggression only begets more aggression. Positive association and good behavior motivation is the only way to help this. It will never be cured, this is a temperament flaw (his mother showed it and should have NEVER been bred). You can train more appropriate reactions but the urge and wariness will always be somewhere in your dog and you will always manage it to a degree.

I could give you tips to help it if you are truly interested, but bite work will never be a safe option for this dog.

 

[shermantank]

I do not have a lot of experience with Mastiff breeds, but have owned and worked with German Shepherds for quite some time. I agree with Oakhillfarm. Fear aggression is manageable...but it takes a lot of hard work. Counter conditioning so to speak. It is definetely something for which you can only use positive training techniques. Negative will only escalate the problem. It will take a big time commitment on your part to desensitize and retrain his line of thinking. I have known it to take an hour or two a day for 6 months before you start to see a change....even then it will be an issue you will have to keep tabs on and keep reinforcing good for the life of the dog. It gets easier, but it is not an easy or a quick fix. I can find some links if you're interested.

I agree also, bitework will not be an option for this dog. A trainer who is "good" and experienced would never agree to work with a dog with fear aggression history. Even if you somehow found someone to work with on bitework it would be of great detriment to this dog. It takes a rock solid minded dog to handle that level of training and have a on/off switch with strong obedience in all situations.

Here is a link that is an overview w/links to more detail on a couple of techniques.
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/11/lat-hat-bat-what-is-that/

 

[Cypress]

Hi,

Thanks so much for your responses and yes i would love some thoughts and ideas on what i can work on, im familiar with clicker training and treats, but to be honest Cypress isn't that driven by treats and i dont really like the clicker application. Any other thoughts?

How would you deal with this event, please describe the exacts elements that i should have done.

We were walking, he was at heal, and we approached a older man, walking rather slow, as me came almost parallel to him, Cypress, lunged across me and jumped toward the old man nearing grabbing his jacket, i of course pulled him away at the last minute and say NO. I yes i was quite upset, it scared the man, and he nearly fell over.

Again, anyone know who i should be seeing in the Vancouver, British Columbia area.

Thanks, Alan.

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

I am truly interested! Please provide me with anything, and some real world applications, that i can start with would be great!

Thanks, Alan

 

[Cypress]

I am truly interested! Please provide me with anything, and some real world applications, that i can start with would be great!

Thanks, Alan

 

[Ghostsword]

I don't think that the dog is suitable for bite and protection work. You need a dog that knows the difference between right and wrong, not one that thinks all is wrong.

Also a good Idea to pay attention to the pups parents for any issues, usually they are passed down. A bit late now, but could you return the dog?

At that size, with those issues it may be a liability.


___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

Your dog should be socialized and obedient and confident, these are the traits that make safe dog. Your dog should not lunge at anyone especially at an elderly man that is obviously no threat.

This can be managed, but honestly it is going to take a lot of work and you have to put in the commitment and time. One thing to keep in mind, your dog is not being protective he is frightened and thus telling people go away, loudly. There is a BIG difference in the two, and each have to be managed differently.

In this instance I would:
Make sure you stay calm. If you are thinking "oh god I hope he doesn't lunge, here comes someone" you tense up automatically signalling your dog that this is a tense situation. Your dog gets nervous as well. There is a difference between a short leash and a tight leash.

Always keep yourself between your dog and people at all times.

If you had the room back to dog up and in a yard or something away from the man approaching, I would have done this at the first sign of interest (an alert stare more than likely).Turn the dogs back to the approaching person and keep him focused on you (weather that is petting him, feeding him cheese, or playing with a toy) just act happy like it's the greatest thing you have done. If at any time he looks at the man gently get his attention back with a light leash correction and voice command. If you can not keep his focus I would move further away until you can. If you can't keep his focus in a public place at all, you need much more foundation work at home (I don't know how far along you are in training him).

Really a good obedience foundation (make a trusting working relationship) and lots of long-distance socialization will help. Only get as close as he is comfortable with. Over correcting a nervous fearful dog will just make the situation worse.

 

[Ghostsword]

Oak hill is on the money...

This will be a long battle to correct, but can be done. Let him know that you are ok, and that you want him to be ok. Do not panic, but you need to be strong and able to handle him, he messes up and you can end up in jail or get a lawsuit on you.

What about those muzzle colars? I do not know the name, but they are good to control strong dogs.

 

[Cypress]

Ok i see the situation, and im gonna have to get a hold of this asap, does it matter that he is 8.5 months old (fear phase), and that he still intact? Also, how do i know if he is fear aggressive or another form of aggression, maybe dominant aggression or protective? Also, can anyone send me some videos (utube) or recommend a dvd that exactly shows me what i need to be doing on my walks and hikes when i meet people? Also, how should i introduce people to him (friends and family), i find he is much worse on leash, can i let him off leash in the house and tell my friends to just ignore him and let him sniff you and make no contact with him till he shows he can trust you?

thanks so much for everything. alan.

 

[OLI COLLARS]

Alan,

I am from Kelowna, there is a good trainer out here-the business is under Dogzies. He goes by a lot of Caesar Milan's concepts.

I had a cane corso that I brought over from Hungary, my lad's father was a renown European champion. Unfortunately my corso had fear aggressive behavior similar to your neo. We socialized him very well, when he was a pup he came in contact with various other breeds. No matter what type of corrective work we did with him, the aggressive behavior did not recede. By the time he was 2 years of age he was a dangerous weapon. He would attack anyone and everything, we could never leave him off a leash, family that he did not come into contact on a regular basis were targets. He even started to turn on my wife, he never turned on me, but needless to say it was bad. The worse day happened when my father-in-law entered through the doorway, as he always does unannounced because it was in was his own house. My corso lunged at him from out of no where and broke my father-in-law's arm in 22 places. He needed corrective, and cosmetic surgery, just with one quick bite. I put him down the next day. The hardest day of my life.

This is not to scare you, but sometimes after exhausting all avenues there is no other solution when they become extreme cases. I had no choice as I exhausted all avenues, no other trainers would touch him, and I am a very experienced dog owner-I have had a few cane corso and bull mastiffs. This is why I don't always believe that there is no such thing as bad dogs only bad owners. I am a very good, and responsible dog owner, and I train them well. Sometimes it is outside our grasp.

I hope your case is not as extreme as mine, but to prevent a dog like mine-the breeder needs to be responsible. That means temperaments have to be taken into consideration when breeding. Breeders cannot be breeding dangerous dogs, it is bad for the dog, bad for the owner, and bad for the third party involved. It is not always about the correct body type-it has to be about breeding balanced dogs too. I hope you have luck with your case, but please exhaust all avenues. Socialization is key, but tricky with an unbalanced dog. He is still young enough to make the adjustments, but do them now-when he is older, he could be dangerous.

When introducing; have your dog leave the room, bring people at the door inside, and then introduce your dog to people that have arrived. If you let the people in while your dog is on the defensive, it could result in aggression. Don't let anyone touch the dog, when the dog comes around to sniff just ignore him. When the dog is ready he will let you know with his body language.

Luis

 

[Cypress]

Wow, that's heart breaking, and i hope i never have to go through what you just described. I will email the gentleman you recommended and see what he has to say. I do find many trainers are uneducated about these types of breeds and that becomes frustrating. I've been doing the positive stuff when we walk by people, by taking his emotions away and getting him to do a different behavior (mostly by being connected with me, with toy or food or something interesting) and it has been working. We basically walked by at least 50 people today and he did fine, especially when he was in the ocean swimming and working to find the ball i would throw for him - he was totally aloof of strangers and focused! It was only when we were walking back that we came across a man wearing a hat, that he made eye contact with, and he didn't like him and he tried to scare him off (lunged and barked at him). He was on leash and i had to pull him away. It is very difficult to get his attention when he decides that this situation is not healthy for him and he must get this person away. I obviously wish there was a fast way to get him to understand that i will handle it - but he just won't let me and thinks the worst first.
Again, any thoughts would be highly appreciated. I'm in this for the long haul, and have decided to exhaust all options, and if he injures or attempts to seriously injure another being, it will go on no longer and i will make a tough decision.

Thanks again

Alan

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

I don't think your anywhere near that point. Look at how much you said he improved in a very short time. Unfortunately some dogs are not wired right but that is a VERY small number and from what you said I think it does not apply to your dog. He is a teenager so to speak and trying to figure out how to act. I think he did remarkably well for his age breed and past experience.

I don't know who you know, but if you could set up some encounters with random people that look larger or different to your dog it would help. Arrange to meet on the street somewhere, and work with your dog. Have the stranger throw a treat at him or just have him stand with his back to you while you work to refocus your dog.

A park or someplace you can stay stationary and watch people is another idea. Skip a meal take it with you and train with it. feed it to your dog a little at a time when he is getting too focused on people.

If you keep working on it, he'll get better, the work and age both are in your favor.

Another tip mentioned somewhere on this forum was the look at that method. This can help and you can use it now on people who he is more comfortable with. Basically you happy voice a "look at that" and then right when he looks " good boy" look at me and treat. It's actually described better somewhere. But it is used to teach your dog to look at something "scary" in a calm manner and get rewarded.

 

[Tiger12490]

Hmmm is he really fear aggressive is my question hair standing up low cowering low tuck tail? Just sounds like he's a jerk LOL

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2 Beta-5

 

[Cypress]

Ya, im wondering if he is fact fear aggressive or just simply being a jerk too, his hear does stand up, he barks and warns, then will actually move toward the person, i'd say his tail is not tucked but up!, ill keep an eye on that from now on! He could be just pure aggressive (bandogge). I had a trainer come in to my home, who wanted to test him out, and he was a large gentelmen, and displayed a very strange energy, Cypress didn't like him from day 1, and barked and wanted to kill the guy, i had him on leash and we sat at the kitchen table and chatted, Cypress, was so aggitated and i didn't let him go over the the guy (he told me to keep 3 feet distance) so i did, Cypress, finally went into the down position ( and was not happy, was groaning, upset - made sounds like a teenage girl would make when she found out she couldn't go the the big dance and all her friends were). after about a minute, he got up and really gave the guy the eye and got very aggressive (again im holding him back, and he has yet to smell or touch the trainer), then the trainer said, ok, let him come over and sniff ------ boom, Cypress came over, check him out from the side, quick sniff, was very cautious, then WAMM, went to take a nip outta the guys forearm!! i pulled him back immediatly, and lucky the guy didn't get a bit hard, braised him really, but Cypress tried too, now, the guys energy was brutal, and he said that he had to see to what level this dog would go! He said he could have come in and been casual, and we could have let Cypress of leash and let him sniff him out and he would have ignored him and things would have been diff, but he trully had to test the limits of the dog... ie. will he infact bite?!

o, then he said i had a bad situation, and for 750 bucks he would hepp me over the next 9 months fix my dog!
Any thoughts?

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

Ya, im wondering if he is fact fear aggressive or just simply being a jerk too, his hear does stand up, he barks and warns, then will actually move toward the person, i'd say his tail is not tucked but up!, ill keep an eye on that from now on!

A high stiff tail is a sign of a tense dog. Your dog is tense and uncomfortable.

He could be just pure aggressive (bandogge).

That statement does a whole "breed" or type of dog a disservice. Your dog is not plain aggressive unless you wish him to be so. I have followed and talked with members on the bandog banter board for years. My own club/trainer is very active on that board. Their dogs are very stable and trained and safe members of society. There are some who have created purely protection dogs, and they are no joke a MAJOR COMMITMENT. That means no walks in public, no one in your house unless restrained and muzzled. I wont agree or disagree, it is what they chose to do, but this isn't really the board for that kind of information. If that is what you are intending you will find better help elsewhere.

That being said, you have already been told, if you are interested in that kind of dog you don't currently own it and you never will with your current dog. He is not a jerk, he doesn't have the nerves that you are looking for. Your dog is young is not that aggressive (just extremely misunderstood by its owner) and wont be purely aggressive unless you make him so. And then he is going to be nutcase aggressive not a well trained machine.

the guys energy was brutal, and he said that he had to see to what level this dog would go! He said he could have come in and been casual, and we could have let Cypress of leash and let him sniff him out and he would have ignored him and things would have been diff, but he truly had to test the limits of the dog... ie. will he infact bite?!

you used the word Brutal and I have to agree. Your dog is in no place for that kind of "test". What a way to ruin a dog's confidence. Will he bite? Hell yea, he has a brain, and teeth. Fear reactive dogs often bite, usually more often that any other type of dog. A confident dog would not have bit this gentleman just sitting. You two strung this dogs nerves so tight he exploded first chance. Not the reaction to try to get out of a dog and in fact reading that made me a little nauseous.

Any thoughts?

Plenty, but I'll keep them to myself for the most part. I thought your first post seemed kind of "macho wannabe" with your dog, the last post confirmed it. You are either a complete novice in dog training (if that is the case you need years of flat OB training and simple dog behavior knowledge before you attempt a PP dog) or a complete tool (I have no patience for people who want tough dogs to look like a bad ass. Grow up, be a man not a child.) You DO NOT HAVE THE DOG YOU WANT! For pete's sake, please find your dog a new home before you completely ruin him or make the smart decision to train your dog to be an acceptable pet. Your questions here lead me to believe you are no where near ready for PP training. If you want a protection dog, find a trainer that has ideals and training styles that match your own, learn from them, have him recommend a good breeder to get the kind of dog you want, and then follow his advice in training a PP dog. That is not something a novice should take on on their own.

 

[Cypress]

Thanks for your comments - " macho wannabe " (why the need to say this)?

Are you a certified trainer? Who says your not just a "wannabe trainer"?

I'm here looking for answers and working every day with my dog, ALL DAY! I take this very seriously, and YES, im no expert, but then again either are you - YOUR opinionated YES, and quick to throw me under the bus, and i don't see why you need to do that - you seemed frustrated - and at this point, being useless to this post - Thanks for your MACHO big shot talk HERO!

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

You're right I don't know you and your motives. You just seem very quick to prove how aggressive your dog is, almost like you want him to be. You (self admittedly) said you have been told by trainers that your dog is not suitable for PP work and yet you are trying to figure a way to prove he is. MY OPINION is it is going to end badly if things don't change. That is my opinion, people can and will make their own based on your statements. Maybe I took them the wrong way from what they were intended, maybe not. To put is crassly "opinions are like a**holes, everyone has them"

As for my credentials, I have trained dogs for over 15 years and have been an active student trainer and very involved with my club for almost 6. I have titled OB, rally, and Sch dogs, and continue to train/compete in them all. I do not consider myself a trainer, as I rarely train on my own except for OB classes and the occasional in home aggression follow up (referrals from my trainer) of which I still follow and get my mentor's opinion. Do I "wannabe" someday. Yes, However none of the advice I gave you was incorrect or different from what others have said.

I agree I am frustrated with some of your remarks, as a person that trains with dogs daily, I have seen this behavior before. Treated or nurtured incorrectly it can become very dangerous. Owning and training a large breed with power is a responsibility that should not be taken lightly, deciding to PP train a dog is a major commitment and requires dedication. As I am no further help to you I will bow out of this thread. I honestly wish you and your dog luck in further training.

 

[natsan6]

Cypress I have had the very same cross in my house and where you may think that Oak is being harsh it truly is plain reality. I am curious as to how much you know of Neos? Or American Bulldogs? Some of the "no tolerance of strangers" is normal for those breeds, the fear however shouldn't be and good breeders won't breed a dog if it shows fear aggression.
When we got our X, same exact one, almost same age even. We took him in as a foster, I am calling him that now even though that is not what we were hoping for we wanted to make our house his forever home. We got him from someone that had kept him kenneled and didn't walk him or expose him to much so EVERYTHING scared him EVERYTHING. I was who he stuck tight to for the first week, my husband couldn't even walk up on me while I was in the pantry without him barking at him...that took about 2 weeks to get over....I won't even go into how long it took for the kids to move freely. He had to spend a lot of time on the back deck with all my windows open just to get accustomed to the noise level of my children. He was constantly supervised in my house by myself even when my kids were sitting at the table. We walked but I made it absolutely clear that he was not friendly please do not look at him look at me type of thing. He was scared not being my fearless guardian how could he be? He wasn't even sure of himself or his surroundings yet. After a few months of working VERY hard and building on our relationship my children were able to move freely to a degree however my youngest still couldn't move about without him "dogging" his every step managing where he was going and what he was doing. I ended the agreement I had with the owner and returned him. He was to much for us and I wasn't ready for a temperament that took that much work and had that much liability with my kids. He made constant improvement and I gave back to her a much more sound trained dog than she gave me and I pray everyday that she didn't turn him into a monster by stopping the forward motion of him becoming a good canine citizen. It will be a LIFETIME thing for him if she wants him to be around people. That is what Oak is trying to tell you. Your first post sounded as if your "goal" was a PP "bite trained" dog.

My goal was to engage Cypress in work, which would represent bite work and protection-related tasks,

All Oak is saying is that isn't happening with this dog and that is why the trainers that you spoke to said it would destroy your dog. "Cypress" needs to be sure of himself in order to function as a healthy, happy secure dog. If you give him that through love, time, positive training and a slow but constant socialization process he would protect you out of love and security but he doesn't have the nerve base or mental fortitude for bite training or PP training, it would just make everything worse. I don't know if you meant to sound "braggy dosey" as my grandmother would say, but that is how it came across when you were discussing your dogs fear aggression. Maybe your wording was just off a bit I dunno. It sounds as if Cypress could be a great dog as long as you are realistic about his limitations and yours on his training level and where you both are headed. That being said if he will not follow your commands with PERFECT obedience he isn't safe at all around anyone other than you "off leash" and that may sound harsh but it is very true. Firm, calm, confident leadership and reassurance that Cypress can relax into is what he needs from you. Keep yourself and Cypress out of trouble and heartache by looking this straight in the face and take him where he is capable of going and not where you want him to go in his training with due diligence and he'll be fine. If not you'll get sued when he bites someone and he could be put down because of it. It will take a lot of work but their loyalty is worth it. I wish you luck keep us updated!!

 

[Tiger12490]

Hmmm that dog sounds like a liability he doesn't sound like he's sure of himself now he could make a good companion dog with work but I wouldn't work that dog in PP you'll turn him into a dog that thinks he's now able to bite people that he feels threatened by and in his case that seems like everyone..... for the greater good you might want to see if you can find someone capable of handling such a dog if your not ready for it JMO

Tapd on my skyrocket using 2.0 beta 5

 

[Ghostsword]

I am a qualified trainer. And what I said on earlier posts still applies. Get rid of the dog. From your earlier posts I could say that the dog was not suitable for you, but you latest post is actually showing that you are not suitable for the dog. Sorry but the true.

Many people have told you that the animal is not suitable for PP work, yet you keep trying. why?


___________________________
Luis
@ghostsword